Trump worker told FBI about moving Mar-a-Lago boxes on ex-president’s orders

essentialsaltes

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So we are supposed to assume Trump is guilty of something simply because his attorneys are pursuing his legal rights?

No, we're supposed to find it curious that Trump discusses potential defenses at his rallies, but his lawyers do not assert or advance these defenses in their filings.

It's like Trump saying (not under oath), "I was in Florida that day; I couldn't have robbed a bank in Wichita."

And his lawyers not only don't say he was in Florida, but they appeal to the judge to rule that the prosecution can't ask them where he was that day.
 
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stevil

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So we are supposed to assume Trump is guilty of something simply because his attorneys are pursuing his legal rights? is that how the values of our legal system work, people are assumed guilty until the prove they are innocent? Wow we have gone a long ways in the wrong direction if that is the case.
"we" aren't the courts. "we" are simply the common people.

By the looks of it Trump is guilty. He has official presidential records at his premises.
He was asked to return them, and he only gave back some.
A subpoena was issues for the return of documents, and he had his staff move some of them.
His lawyer said he had no more.
The FBI raided and found many more documents marked classified (hence presidential records)

But yeah, of course, the courts will decide.
 
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stevil

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It's like Trump saying (not under oath), "I was in Florida that day; I couldn't have robbed a bank in Wichita."

And his lawyers not only don't say he was in Florida, but they appeal to the judge to rule that the prosecution can't ask them where he was that day.
Or perhaps Trump and his lawyers saying on TV and on their roadshow that there was massive voter fraud and that the election was stolen.

But then in court, saying that they are not arguing about voter fraud.
 
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disciple Clint

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No, we're supposed to find it curious that Trump discusses potential defenses at his rallies, but his lawyers do not assert or advance these defenses in their filings.

It's like Trump saying (not under oath), "I was in Florida that day; I couldn't have robbed a bank in Wichita."

And his lawyers not only don't say he was in Florida, but they appeal to the judge to rule that the prosecution can't ask them where he was that day.
sounds to me like some people may be looking for any excuse to exercise bias confirmation.
 
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disciple Clint

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"we" aren't the courts. "we" are simply the common people.

By the looks of it Trump is guilty. He has official presidential records at his premises.
He was asked to return them, and he only gave back some.
A subpoena was issues for the return of documents, and he had his staff move some of them.
His lawyer said he had no more.
The FBI raided and found many more documents marked classified (hence presidential records)

But yeah, of course, the courts will decide.
"the looks of it" has everything to do with perspective, guilty of a crime has everything to do with evidence. Assuming people are guilty has everything to do with allowing our personal bias to override the rights of others to fair treatment.
 
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essentialsaltes

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guilty of a crime has everything to do with evidence.

Like all those things that don't belong to him being kept in his house. That he hid from the owners (we the people) when we asked him to return them.

to override the rights of others to fair treatment.

What unfairness is Trump suffering? He's got legal representation; he's getting heard in court.
 
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disciple Clint

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Like all those things that don't belong to him being kept in his house. That he hid from the owners (we the people) when we asked him to return them.



What unfairness is Trump suffering? He's got legal representation; he's getting heard in court.
one more attempt at making this simple.
1. we do not have all of the facts
2. all of the facts are required before an impartial decision can be made
3. deciding that someone is guilty of a crime without having all the fact is unfair.
 
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stevil

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"the looks of it" has everything to do with perspective, guilty of a crime has everything to do with evidence. Assuming people are guilty has everything to do with allowing our personal bias to override the rights of others to fair treatment.
I'm not on the jury, I'm not the judge, I'm not the police. I'm just a commoner looking at what is known by the facts that have thus far been made public knowledge.
I'm not just assuming he is guilty because he is the mighty "Trump", I am assuming he is guilty because from the known facts he appears guilty to this layman.
 
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disciple Clint

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I'm not on the jury, I'm not the judge, I'm not the police. I'm just a commoner looking at what is known by the facts that have thus far been made public knowledge.
I'm not just assuming he is guilty because he is the mighty "Trump", I am assuming he is guilty because from the known facts he appears guilty to this layman.
Understandably but so far we only see the side of the facts that is in the media, there is much more to see.
 
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stevil

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Understandably but so far we only see the side of the facts that is in the media, there is much more to see.
Maybe, and once other facts come to light, I will add them to the calculation that goes towards my personal assessment.
 
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essentialsaltes

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Understandably but so far we only see the side of the facts that is in the media, there is much more to see.

Trump has been blaring his versions of the facts all over the country, and the media has covered it. The documents were planted. The documents were declassified with the power of his mind. We have seen plenty from his side.

His lawyers have not seen fit to use these versions of the facts in their representations to the court.
 
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disciple Clint

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Trump has been blaring his versions of the facts all over the country, and the media has covered it. The documents were planted. The documents were declassified with the power of his mind. We have seen plenty from his side.

His lawyers have not seen fit to use these versions of the facts in their representations to the court.
obviously the attorneys will provide the response and it will not be done at a political meeting.
 
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stevil

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obviously the attorneys will provide the response and it will not be done at a political meeting.
Does this say something about the type of people that go to Trump political rallies?

Given that they seem to lap up nonsensical debunked reasoning(cheering as they go) that most people can see is obviously unfit arguments to present in court.

Be interesting to see what Trump's lawyers bring to the plate in the court that matters. The suspense is killing me.
 
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disciple Clint

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Does this say something about the type of people that go to Trump political rallies?

Given that they seem to lap up nonsensical debunked reasoning(cheering as they go) that most people can see is obviously unfit arguments to present in court.

Be interesting to see what Trump's lawyers bring to the plate in the court that matters. The suspense is killing me.
Yes it says that Trump supporters are intelligent and recognize the difference between a pep rally and a legal proceeding.
 
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essentialsaltes

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obviously the attorneys will provide the response and it will not be done at a political meeting.

I'm not talking about rallies. I'm talking about the judicial proceedings. This IS where they are to provide their response. Or lack thereof.

His lawyers have not seen fit to use these versions of the facts in their representations to the court.

Why aren't the lawyers using Trump's version of the facts in their pleadings?
 
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stevil

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Yes it says that Trump supporters are intelligent and recognize the difference between a pep rally and a legal proceeding.
LOL
But unfortunately they don't seem to recognise the difference between a good sound logical defence and a weak, debunked one.
 
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For me to many "if's" to keep tabs on here. I would really have to run with speculation and as fun as that is its not fact. Does seem most American's have no clue on what exactly and how a President can classify and declassify. When you push this as far as it can go up the chain so to speak...no one knows for sure. So running with "He former president can't". That right there, said like it is, is true. Ooh but he did it before leaving office so he can and did have the right and sorry didn't have to mark every one, didn't have to tell anyone for he was at the time president. Then knowing he didn't pack up all that himself. Then knowing how many people there making sure what could be taken and not taken.

Fact they former presidents have years to go through all that to keep or return. All have to do this and there are thousands of papers to go through. Again this is something left out. No president knows whats in every box so they hello go through it. It seems huge when we hear Trumps team :) not quite tell the truth vs FBI DOJ doing the same exact thing yet why that's not reported by the left I can't tell you. What I think should bother us the most is not who this is about but "how" this was done. This was done the wrong way should happen to any former president.

For me put this on the back burner and can we work on what's really going on in the US and the WORLD.

No, they really don't have "years," not per the Presidential Records Act. That Act "Establishes that Presidential records automatically transfer into the legal custody of the Archivist as soon as the President leaves office." [Emphasis mine] In all the "whataboutisms" that have popped up from this discussion, I learned that Pres. Obama started turning boxes of records over in May, about 8 months before he left office.

You have it backwards, almost all the records -- the "thousands of papers" are all Presidential records and are required to be turned over. Instead, typically, any private papers of a President are kept separate during the Presidency, so they are already identified and there is no need to spend thousands of man hours trying to separate the few personal papers from the "thousands of papers" of Presidential records.

Also, the classification is largely a side issue that isn't relevant to what is being discussed here. The subpoena “'sought documents ‘bearing classification markings,’ and therefore a complete response would not turn on whether or not responsive documents had been purportedly declassified,” a lawyer with the DOJ’s National Security Division said in the filing." As such, whether Trump had declassified them didn't matter; the documents still had classification markings and so were required to be returned.
 
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