How did God choose and predestine us to be saved?

[bling]

Before time began God predestined that all who accept His Love as pure undeserved charity would receive His Love.

 

[fhansen]

Eternal reward is established by our nearness
to God.

I like that. Any this could probably best be measured by the externt to which we love Him- with our whole heart, soul, mind, and strength.

 

[Mr. M]

I like that. Any this could probably best be measured by the externt to which we love Him- with our whole heart, soul, mind, and strength.

To me this is the very meaning of life. The degree
with which we draw near to Him in this life
establishes our place in the age to come.
This is our reflection of His Glory.
Those who have no desire in their hearts for
God in this age, have no expectations for a life
with Him in the age to come.

 

[Mr. M]

Before time began God predestined that all who accept His Love as pure undeserved charity would receive His Love.

And would be moved to share this Love
with others, and bear witness to Him in the World.
2 Thessalonians 2:
16 Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself, and our God and Father, who has loved us and given us everlasting consolation and good hope by grace,
17 comfort your hearts and establish you in every good word and work.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Good Day,

Agreed.. he knew long before "hand" (to predetermine, decide beforehand) that he would grant belief for the sake of Christ.

Php 1:29 For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake.

Repentance is also Granted by God, he knew beforehand he would be doing that

2Ti 2:25 correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.

We abide in Christ, because of Christ we can do nothing with out him. The Father gave us to Christ and he losses none ( we abide) because of His does the will of the father... He knew he would beforehand as it was predetermined before the foundations of the world.

Joh 6:39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.

In Him,

Bill

But we must cooperate with God who’s patience and kindness is leading us to repentance Romans 2:4-5


“Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:4-5‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Because God desires all men to be saved and come to the full knowledge of truth 1 Timothy 2:3-4 2 Peter 3:9

 

[BBAS 64]

But we must cooperate with God who’s patience and kindness is leading us to repentance Romans 2:4-5


“Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:4-5‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Because God desires all men to be saved and come to the full knowledge of truth 1 Timothy 2:3-4 2 Peter 3:9

Good Day,

Romans 2:1 starts with a "therefore" so not useful to start at verse 4... IMHO

God ensures our willingness and our working (ability), by the work which He does by definition cannot not fail to achieve the things (purposes) which please him.

Php 2:13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

Much in the same way he ensures ( primary sufficient cause) our walking in his statues and obeying his rules

Eze 36:26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

Men are called to Repent- God is the (primary sufficient) cause of men following that command, the effect is they really do repent.

In Him,

Bill

 

[BNR32FAN]

Good Day,

Romans 2:1 starts with a "therefore" so not useful to start at verse 4... IMHO

God ensures our willingness and our working (ability), by the work which He does by definition cannot not fail to achieve the things (purposes) which please him.

Php 2:13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

In Him,

Bill

So because Romans 2:1 begins with the word “Therefore” should we just ignore what follows? It’s really simple, Did Paul say that God’s kindness and patience is leading them to repentance? Are they repenting?

“Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:4-5‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Furthermore God does not ensure our willingness which is why Paul warned the Ephesians not to grieve the Holy Spirit in Ephesians 4:30. If God ensured our willingness then John 15:6 would be an impossibility. Galatians 5:4 would be another impossibility. Luke 13:6-9 would be yet another impossibility. One thing hasn’t changed since the creation of Adam, man has always disappointed God at every turn. That’s why we are in need of a Savior.

 

[Jonaitis]

Ephesian Chapter 1 :3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to sonship[c] through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace 8 that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and understanding, 9 he[d] made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ.


How did God choose and predestine us to be saved?
Does my freewill play any determinative role?
Any contradiction between God's sovereignty to choose and my freewill?

He predestined us, not for anything we have done, nor for anything that we are, but because He chose to out of His love toward Christ.

You are a free-working agent that is born under the sinful will of your corrupt nature. You contribute nothing to your salvation but the sin that made it necessary, as Jonathan Edwards once said.

God predetermined the outcome of your actions, that even your decision to follow Christ was from His storehouse of grace.

 

[bling]

To me this is the very meaning of life. The degree
with which we draw near to Him in this life
establishes our place in the age to come.
This is our reflection of His Glory.
Those who have no desire in their hearts for
God in this age, have no expectations for a life
with Him in the age to come.

If you have done it to the least of these...

 

[d taylor]

Rom 8 ...
he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

Can people who are conformed to the image not people who also have eternal life?

Joh 17:1 When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you, since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him. And this is eternal life, that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.

Mat 11:27 All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

The revelation of the Father is the exclusive choice of the Son, all that the father gives to me come to me and I will raise them up on the last day, that is will of the Father whop sent me.




Yes both are true, so you see that God chose his own people in the OC, but can not allow God to choose his own in the NC... why is that?




The issue here is salvation is all of the Lord start to finish, and God has to do nothing at all people go to hell for their sin, and they sin, because they are sinners.

In Him,

Bill

Romans 8 is saying that God has predetermined that believers, whoever that may be. Will be conformed to the image of his Son. It is not saying that God is predetermining people to be believers.

John 17 When a person believes in The Messiah, God gives them to The Messiah and The Messiah promises to never cast them out. Meaning they are eternally secure in their Eternal Life, given to them by God when they became a believer.

Sin does not cause a person to be cast into the lake of fire all sin has been paid for believers and unbelievers. An unbeliever is cast into the lake of fire because they are not found in The Book of Life. They are not in The Book of Life because they never believed in The Messiah.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Ephesian Chapter 1 :3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to sonship[c] through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace 8 that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and understanding, 9 he[d] made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ.


How did God choose and predestine us to be saved?
Does my freewill play any determinative role?
Any contradiction between God's sovereignty to choose and my freewill?

How? By His love and mercy and compassion which He has for you in Christ Jesus.

He did not choose you on the basis of anything you would do, so no, your will played no part in His loving and choosing you. It's about who He is, not who we are.

It's not really even about God being "sovereign to choose", it's about God's eternal, infinite, and unconditional love which He has for you in Jesus Christ. He loved you in Christ before the world began. He has always known you, and He has always loved you. Christ came to save you, you were there on Calvary with Jesus Christ; you can know this because of your baptism, you can know this because that's what God tells you in the Gospel, you can know this because He invites you to His Supper and partake of His body and blood which was broken and shed for you.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[TedT]

How did God choose and predestine us to be saved?

ImCo:

I've had years of study on the doctrine of our pre-earth existence and that HIS foreknowing us is much more that a mere foreseeing of us in the future but describes a real relationship with real people before the foundation of the world.

This theology called various things but which I refer to as our Pre-Conception Existence theology, is full and lengthy and so is the theology of my reply to your question, sigh...

Romans 8:29 For whom HE did foreknow, HE also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of HIS Son.
From this verse we can see that the predestination of the elect is based on the foreknowledge of GOD. Now everyone admits that in this verse, the word “fore” means before life. Therefore, they think that it also means before creation as if our earthly life was the same as our created spirit life. I wonder if this is a valid and reasonable link to make?

GOD obviously does not before life know everybody since not everyone will become like Jesus, which Rom 8:29 defines predestination to mean and, as per Matthew 7:21 – 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ which tells us what knowing means, emphasising the idea that loving is knowing and knowing about has no love.

James 2:19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that--and shudder. Jesus obviously knew about the demons and knew about the miracle workers but this knowing contained no love as it is plain, He never knew them.

This means that foreknow must carry the idea of approval. As one commentator stated it, “Whom HE foreknew” is virtually equivalent to “whom HE foreloved”.
Now this question comes to mind: if it is true that no one had been created at the time of this foreknowledge, on what basis does GOD "before life" love some and not the rest?

1. Merit based Election before Creation?
The basis can not be, as some have suggested, some merit in the creatures, first because no one exists yet; second, because the ones HE foreloves will be just as defiled in life as any other; and third, because the Scriptures say election is not on the basis of the creature's works or choices in life, but rather on HIS favour: Romans 9:11 For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of GOD according to election might stand, not of works, but of HIM that calleth...

Romans 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of GOD that sheweth mercy.

Therefore, we can surmise that GOD does not "before life" love some because HE has divined that they will have some merit in their life.

2. Election to Damnation before Creation Serves HIS Purpose?
Others have suggested that GOD "before life" loved only some because hating some is more beneficial for HIS purposes than if HE before life loved everyone.

The explanation goes something like this:
The loved ones' eternal joy is directly proportional to their knowledge, their appreciation of GOD and the wonderfulness of their salvation. Therefore an increase of good comes forth from the eternal damnation of some persons for by their damnation, that is, the outcome of Adam's decision to sin, and HIS "before life" decision not to love these persons, two types of eternal blessings supposedly occur for the rest.

First, a fuller appreciation of several of God's attributes is made possible, which opportunity wouldn't be possible if all lived forever, that is, if HE "before life" loved them all. These attributes are usually said to be HIS justness (retribution, wrath) holiness and omnipotence.

Secondly, the truth regarding the elects' end apart from Christ's salvation is made fully known, which full knowledge makes possible the fuller appreciation of HIS salvation, for this salvation (hence, HIS mercy too) would not be so fully appreciated without the graphic depiction of both ends.

Others even go so far as to say that their damnation is absolutely necessary in order that the purpose of GOD be able to be fulfilled by HIS elect, and they offer this explanation:
In order to live in eternity with GOD, we must live fully in the truth, which necessity necessitates having a perfect appreciation of GOD's attributes and HIS salvation, and that this perfect appreciation by HIS elect creatures is made possible first, only through witnessing HIS triumph over and judgement upon HIS enemies, and second, only when HIS perfection and our life in Christ are contrasted with the complete imperfections of the damned and the end we would have had, had HE not saved us.

Now, these are very hard positions to hold, for they fail on many accounts.
First, they both fail to answer or give a reasonable basis for why HE chose the particular ones HE did and why HE did not choose the rest. In other words, they both deny the faithful and unselfish character of GOD's love, in that they limit it without just cause and look on it as somewhat capricious.

Secondly, they both necessitate the unproven presupposition that it is impossible for GOD to perfect HIS creatures HIMSELF, that HE needs the presence of evil in order to bring HIS creation to its highest potential.

In other words we must accept, for example, that in GOD’S world one has to first be sick in order to be healthy, or sinful in order to be faultless [and the more sinful (or sick) the better].

Third, they both fail to satisfactorily answer the question of how the damnation of millions makes us more appreciative / perfect than would be the damnation of but one, since it is the moral depravity of those in hell that is supposed to make for the increased appreciation of perfection and not the quantity of persons therein.

Fourthly, they both put a very small value on the worth of the individual creature in the eyes of GOD.

Well, since the reason for GOD's foreknowledge/forelove not including everyone can not be found in HIS divination of merit in some creatures and since a reasonable answer has not been put forward for why GOD loves some and not others in particularly, we are left with but two conclusions:

We must either look for the answer elsewhere, in some area we have not looked before, or we must put the basis of HIS foreknowledge down to unreasonable chance.

This would mean that there is no reason for HIS particular "before life" love. GOD's election / foreknowing is thus based on eenie, meenie, minie, mo, but how can you put your faith in a GOD like that? How much better to admit that we should start looking in some area we have not looked yet, and since we cannot find any of those, why not finally admit that we need a revelation from GOD to give us an infinitely loving answer to this problem?

Now, according to pre-conception theology, the "before life" love (foreknowledge) of GOD, that is, HIS pre-life approval of some and rejection of the rest is based on the prior uncoerced choice of the creature (in Sheol, before physical creation) and on HIS infinite love, which means that HE will never stop loving anyone who can possibly ever come to glorify HIM.

Therein is the reason why HE loved some "before this life" and why HE did not love the rest.

Some had chosen to eternally defile themselves (becoming reprobate goats under judgement) and some had not (becoming HIS elect to salvation if they should ever sin). Some had decided to never ever fulfil HIS purpose and some were still able to fulfil HIS purpose, some willingly, (angels) and others only if HE was infallibly gracious (BY election) to them (His fallen church). Yes, and He predestined these to be conformed to the image of HIS Son, and HE predestined the other evil ones for the Day of Judgement and established them for the correction of the fallen elect. (Matt 13:27 The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’ 28 ‘An enemy did this,’ he replied. [a reference to the explanation of this parable, ie, no more metaphor, in verses 36-39]

So the servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’[to bring the judgement upon them?] 29 ‘NO!’ he said, [postpone the judgement because...] ‘if you pull the weeds now, you might uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest. The time of the harvest is the time of the maturity of the wheat and the only maturity that saves a sinner from the judgment is a mature holiness!

 

[Clare73]

How did God choose and predestine us to be saved?

What do you mean by "how"?

The same way he chose Jacob and not Esau. . .for the sake of his purpose and plan.

Before the foundations of the world, he decided/decreed whom he would regenerate, and he did/does so.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Why would that be, Carl? I don’t see the reward thing as playing a big part in Scripture, or as being a big motivator for believers I know, either. As it appears, the most important reward is eternal life, now that we’re equipped, by the Spirit, to attain it. I mean, the will of man plays a role from Genesis through Revelation in the most important thing, his eternal destiny, as I see it.

And that’s really the only reason that he needs the Bible, that he needs knowledge, information, revelation, IOW, so that he may hear, understand, and choose, even as grace is also essential in his making and growing stronger and more confirmed in that choice, that choice for goodness, that choice for God.

Ones status and reward in heaven is spoken about.

1. Mark 9:41
   For whoever gives you a cup of water to drink because of your name as followers of Christ, truly I say to you, he will not lose his reward.
2. Luke 6:23
   Be glad in that day and leap for joy, for behold, your reward is great in heaven. For in the same way their fathers used to treat the prophets.
   
   
3. Luke 6:35
   But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for He Himself is kind to ungrateful and evil men.

1 Cor 3
12 Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work. 14 If any man’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

 

[Clare73]

.

 

[Bob Crowley]

I've mentioned this ad infinitum, but the night my father died, he appeared in my room. We had a conversation, and at the end he gave this terrifying scream and then just disappeared. It was obvious something was coming for him.

At one stage though he blurted out in some alarm "I always was doomed! I didn't really have any choice!"

I was an atheist at the time (and I wondered what the hell was going on at the same time). I replied "That can't be right!"

He said "Oh, it's right all right! You can see that from here!" Most of the time he was looking at something over my head and behind me, either with a look of awe or alternately trying to hide his face behind his hands (I presume at those times he could see negative aspects of his life in front of the Divine Gaze, and he couldn't stand it).

Yet later in the same exchange he said "I was WILLING!" (to continue to act in the cruel, stupid, bad tempered, vindictive way he did and to keep it up for the better part of 26 years or the whole of his married life).

I don't understand it, and I don't like what seemed to be a personal affirmation of predestionation. Yet he also said quite clearly he was WILLING.

Christ said HImself - John 6:44 NIV "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day."

This implies God's choice. But I think our wills come into it. God doesn't ride rough shod over our free choices. In Revelation 3:20 NIV Christ said "Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me."

That implies a response on our part. We have to open the door.

We've all heard the story of the Prodigal Son (or Daughter for that matter), usually with the emphasis on the Father's response when he sees his lost son returning. But the Prodigal Son had to come to his senses first, which is not usually emphasised.

That was his decision.

But I still don't like it. It strikes my 21st century western democratic mind as unfair. The generation of Christ's time may not have felt quite the same way with their theocratic tradition and a history of being purged again and again by God. They were accustomed to autocratic rulers and Roman overlords, with kings who put to death those who rejected them. Ask John the Baptist.

I still think it is unfair.

 

[Clare73]

I've mentioned this adfinitum, but the night my father died, he appeared in my room. We had a conversation, and at the end he gave this terrifying scream and then just disappeared. It was obvious something was coming for him.

At one stage though he blurted out in some alarm "I always was doomed! I didn't really have any choice!"

I was an atheist at the time (and I wondered what the hell was going on at the same). I replied "That can't be right!"

He said "Oh, it's right all right! You can see that from here!" Most of the time he was looking at something over my head and behind me, either with a look of awe or alternately trying to hide his face behind his hands (I presume at those times he could see negative aspects of his life in front of the Divine Gaze, and he couldn't stand it).

Yet later in the same exchange he said "I was WILLING!" (to continue to act in the cruel, stupid, bad tempered, vindictive way he did and to keep it up for the better part of 26 years or the whole of his married life).

I don't understand it, and I don't like what seemed to be a personal affirmation of predestionation. Yet he also said quite clearly he was WILLING.

Amazing!

Christ said HImself - John 6:44 NIV "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.

This implies God's choice. But I think our wills come into it. God doesn't ride rough shod over our free choices. In Revelation 3:20 NIV Christ said "Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me."
That implies a response on our part. We have to open the door.

Good post!

The NT presents all mankind, all those born of Adam, as born without the Holy Spirit, unregenerate and guilty of/condemned by the sin of Adam (Romans 5:18) imputed to them (Romans 5:12-14).
It also presents the righteousness of Christ imputed to those born of Christ (Romans 4:1-11)--and
the imputation of Adam's sin to to those born of Adam as the pattern (Romans 5:14) for the imputation of Christ's righteousness (Romans 5:18-19) to those born of Christ.

The unregenerate (without the Holy Spirit) man (which is the state of all mankind at birth--Romans 5:18, who by their nature, with which they are born, are objects of wrath--Ephesians 2:3) is
blind (John 3:3-8),
does not accept/receive the things that come from the Holy Spirit because he does not understand them, they are foolishness to him (1 Corinthians 2:14), and he is
hostile to God (Romns 8:7-8).

The unregenerate man's will, being governed by his disposition (what he prefers), prefers his own will over God's will, and so that is what he freely (without external force or constraint) chooses to do.
The regenerate man has received the Holy Spirit who transforms his disposition, which governs his will, and he prefers God's will, which he freely chooses to do.

So it is our own will which freely chooses what it prefers--to disobey or obey God, to disbelieve or believe in the person and the atoning sacrifice (blood, Romans 3:25) of Jesus Christ for the remission of one's sin and right(eous) standing with God's justice; i.e., "not guilty," declared righteous (justified--sentence of acquittal of guilt by the Judge, God) with the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ (Romans 4:1-11).

We've all heard the story of the Prodigal Son (or Daughter for that matter), usually with the emphasis on the Father's response when he sees his lost son returning. But the Prodigal Son had to come to his senses first, which is not usually emphasised.

That was his decision.

But I still don't like it. It strikes my 21st century western democratic mind as unfair. The generation of Christ's time may not have felt quite the same way with their theocratic tradition and a history of being purged again and again by God. They were accustomed to autocratic rulers and Roman overlords, with kings who put to death those who rejected them. Ask John the Baptist.

But I still don't like it.

Yes, the issue is submission to God's will over our own.
And the reborn are given to agree with that.

 

[TedT]

But the Prodigal Son had to come to his senses first, which is not usually emphasised.

That was his decision.

It is in other places that we learn that sinners are manipulated by the Spirit to repent and seek the Father.

That this is not mentioned in the parable does not imply that it need not happen nor that we have a free will, not a will enslaved to evil. Our free will is only restored by our rebirth, as Gal 5:13 suggests:

 

[LayHong_Loves_Christ]

If I accept the theory of predestination, can I consider it is a GRACE of God to to choose me, give me faith, strengthen my heart to believe in Jesus Christ and be saved?

Should I consider it a Grace of God that He had determined to bestow on me before creation?

 

[LayHong_Loves_Christ]

Sometimes when I ask myself honestly, what will I choose between the sin of flesh and the living Word of God?
The answer is : The sin of flesh.
So, I believe it is the work of the Holy Spirit to enable me to choose the living Word of God, to trust in Jesus and accepted him as my savior.
I am 99.99% will choose death than life due to the sin of my flesh.
My mind cannot overcome the weakness of my flesh.
It is God's power and grace that enable me to choose His Word and be saved.
So I attribute my salvation solely to the Work of God.