What is the Historical Gospel of Jesus Christ?

[P1LGR1M]

My point was when He was questioned and incorrectly condemned, He interpreted the law correctly for them.

I agree. I particularly liked His lesson here:


Mark 2:23-27
King James Version

23 And it came to pass, that he went through the corn fields on the sabbath day; and his disciples began, as they went, to pluck the ears of corn.

24 And the Pharisees said unto him, Behold, why do they on the sabbath day that which is not lawful?

25 And he said unto them, Have ye never read what David did, when he had need, and was an hungred, he, and they that were with him?

26 How he went into the house of God in the days of Abiathar the high priest, and did eat the shewbread, which is not lawful to eat but for the priests, and gave also to them which were with him?

27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:


So here is another question: can born-again believers do that which is not Lawful on the Sabbath Day?


Continued...

 

[RobertPate]

My dear sir, if you want to be a goat, by all means go ahead and be a goat. I sincerely hope you don’t suffer their fate. I choose to be a sheep. I choose to love Jesus. I love Jesus more than I love anything in this universe. Furthermore, I love loving Jesus because without mutual love, by definition of the word relationship, their can be no relationship with Jesus. I for one would rather not exist at all if it means I don’t have a relationship with Jesus. So go ahead and call me evil while I enjoy my personal relationship with Jesus.

BTW, may I ask if you are an Evangelical Christian? I’m just asking because I think it would really be hilarious to tell people that I met an Evangelical Christian that didn’t know what an evangelium/gospel was.

It is not possible to love Jesus and reject his Gospel and justification by faith apart from the works of the law. I think that what you really love is your Catholic religion.

 

[John Owen]

You think not having a job is funny?

But, I hate to disappoint: I am an HVAC Contractor in business for myself. I am getting over Covid so had quite a bit of time on my hands the last few weeks, and had actually finished my time on this forum and had left but due to certain circumstances felt compelled to return to deal with the issues that I feel are important.

And dealing with Judaizers is important.

I have worked hard for a lot of years to have the ability to set mmyown schedule. It is God that gives me liberty to spend time trying to help others understand His Word better.

So how much longer I am here remains to be seen. Right now—that is my job.


God bless

It was a joke. And you know what they say about people who can't take a joke? They are insecure.

 

[P1LGR1M]

You took it in a completely different direction.

No, I stayed with the original statement you answered: the Law was changed.

The Lord wasn't "changing" the "how" of the Law, He was expounding upon the principles men were supposed to receive from the instruction of God's revealed will.

It is no different today: we live according to God's revealed will and we are dependent on Him to help us understand His will for our lives.

If we must "keep the Law" then we need to shut down the Police, Emergency, and Medical personnel that violate the Sabbath every Saturday.

Praise God He has changed the Law!

By bringing in a new and better hope to His People:


Hebrews 7:19
For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.


Hebrews 7:22
By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.


Hebrews 8:6
But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.


Hebrews 12:24
And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.


The Judaizer seeks to bring men under bondage again:


Galatians 2
King James Version

4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:

5 To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.


11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.

12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.

13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.

14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?

15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,

16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.


Eternal Redemption is accomplished by Jesus Christ only. It is a gift bestowed upon men that believe in Jesus Christ.

Justification, whether Eternal (Romans 3) or Temporal (Romans 4; James 2)—is accomplished by faith in Jesus Christ.

Not "keeping the Law."

You cannot "keep the Law," it is impossible for you.


Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

It was a joke. And you know what they say about people who can't take a joke? They are insecure.

What do they say about people that make derisive comments about others?

When humor is involved, I am all for it, even if it is directed at my person.

Perhaps you could explain where in this...

I don't think he has a job. LOL

...there is humor to be found?


God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

Wow 14 new messages from you LOL!

Is there a law stating how many posts I can make?

You took it in a completely different direction. I mean, for just one example, the Temple does not exist so those laws can not be followed.

Hmm, sounds vaguely familiar.

Oh, that's right...

But if you are going to teach men they must keep the Law let me ask you this: when was the last time you went to the Temple and sacrifice was made for your sin?

You were asked a direct question about how you are keeping the Law.

Seems to me there is a necessity that your own law must be changed as well.

I would advise embracing the changes God has made to the Law.

So I ask again: when was the last time you went to the Temple and sacrifice was made for your sin?


God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

Why is that? I can be both. Not being deceptive at all! However, that was not the context of our conversation. What I SAID was true...

So you are saying you are claiming to be Messianic Eastern Orthodox?


God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

I think he had a good idea... Genesis 22

So show me in Scripture where he had "an idea."

I have shown what Scripture does say, that Abraham was declared righteous because he believed GOd when God told him He would give him a son of his own loins from a wife beyond the age of bearing and that through his offspring all families of the earth would be blessed.

So where is the Scripture that shows Abraham had the Mystery of the Gospel revealed to him despite the fact Paul teaches that it was not revealed to the sons of men in past Ages?

Where is the Scripture that teaches we are under Law?


Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

No, that you expect me to agree with your definitions of words you define and then tell me to prove them wrong LOL!

I am not defining the Law, Scripture is:


Acts 15:10-11
King James Version

10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.


How are they tempting God? How are they trying to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples?

Why couldn't their fathers bear that yoke?


Acts 15:23-24
King James Version

23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia.

24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:


Where am I redefining anything?

You keep levying charges against me but do not show the how, when, where, or why of these charges.

Here is what a Child of Israel said once:


John 7:51
Doth our law judge any man, before it hear him, and know what he doeth?


I have a right to see the evidence that supports your charges against me.

It's the Law, remember?


God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

No, that you expect me to agree with your definitions of words you define and then tell me to prove them wrong LOL!

That is a classic manipulation tactic.

That is a classic manipulation tactic.

It's manipulative to ask someone to answer some very simple questions?

Since you agree with this member, perhaps you would be so kind to support your support of the charge against me with an example of the "manipulation" you see.


God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

But it is not the Law.

When the Law is spoken of in the Epistles which were written to clarify for Christians the precepts and principles and doctrines we are to abide by we are told specifically that Gentiles are not commanded to keep the Law:


Acts 15:23-24
King James Version

23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia.

24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:


So just speak plainly.

I will ask again:

P1LGR1M said: ↑
Your answer is a no, whether you realize it or not.

I agree with this statement: If someone claims that Christians are supposed to observe Torah they are teaching the heresy of the Judaizers.

Do you?


It's a yes or no question.


God bless.

Well yes it is. Torah is law and law is Torah. Do you know what Torah is? How about TaNaKh?

So show me Adam being told not to steal, lie, commit adultery, or keep the Sabbath?

Show me the Noahide Laws.

Show me the Tanakh in Scripture.

Show me the Law in the New Covenant.


You can't, that is just a fact. And going outside of Scripture to build doctrine, particularly the holy writ of those who reject Jesus Christ—is absurd.

The answer you are giving to the question seems to be that you believe Christians are to observe Torah and that it is not heresy to teach Christians to observe Torah.

If this is an improper conclusion please correct it.


God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

Well yes it is. Torah is law and law is Torah. Do you know what Torah is? How about TaNaKh?

Do you think the Tanakh is inspired Scripture?


God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

That is the basis of Torah...love of HaShem and love of your brother...even Yeshua said so!

And?

Here is the basis for New Covenant Relationship:


1 John 4:19
We love him, because he first loved us.


Hebrews 9:12
King James Version

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.


Hebrews 12:2
Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.


The Law held only a shadow of the good things that have come to us.

You cannot keep the Law, for in doing so you will be rejecting Christ:


Hebrews 10
King James Version

1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.


No one can "keep the Law." The Law demanded sacrifice for sin, and the need for Sacrifice has been made obsolete.

Again, where in the instruction God has given to Christians do you find justification for the cherry-picking of the Law you are trying to present?


James 2:10
For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.


Are you not obligated to not eat of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil? Are you not obligated to build an Ark and gather all the animals of the world? Are you not obligated to keep the Sabbath holy and do no work therein?

You are if you try to make "the Law" every command of God outside of a Biblical Context that explains God's revealed will to mankind.

Why is it that the will of God is presented as so important yet His will for Christians is ignored?


Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

That is a silly question...there is no Temple.

So how can you keep the Law?

How can you tell others they must?

That is the point of the questions you are dodging, to show that it is silly to teach men they must observe the Law. By trying to sound Jewish and calling it Torah doesn't change the fact that even if people wanted to keep the Law—they can't.

And we then examine the matter that—they never could. Not even when the Tabernacle and Temple were still present.

So here is an example of the change of the Law:


Hebrews 9:6-9
King James Version

6 Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God.

7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:

8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:

9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;


Since "keeping the Law" is so important, would you mind just telling me if you understand the parable of the Tabernacle?

In Hebrews, there is never any mention of the Temple. Would you like to tell me why? I can make a suggestion: because it was specific to those who were truly of the Hebrew People.

Do you understand what this Hebrew Writer—under inspiration of the Holy Ghost—is saying to the Hebrew People he is writing to in regards to the Holiest?

Seems to me that someone who thinks men should observe Torah would know, so please, exaplain why the Holy of Holies of the Tabernacle—or the Temple—couldn't make the Levitical Priesthood perfect?


God bless.

 

[John Owen]

Yes I have! Go look them up, do you need spoon fed????? LOL

The issue is that he does not listen to anything that anyone says. He only wants people to agree with his statements and then manipulate that person into agreeing with these strange fringe beliefs.

 

[P1LGR1M]

That Christians obey the principles of God's will revealed to man does not make them "under Law" or under command to "keep the Law."

Um, that IS Torah! We follow His Torah because we love Him and our brother.

Sorry, no, it isn't Torah.

If you didn't cherry-pick my posts like you cherry-pick Torah you would see the error in your teaching:

That Christians obey the principles of God's will revealed to man does not make them "under Law" or under command to "keep the Law."

As I pointed out, that we are able to keep the Law is not because we are special, or holy, but it is because God is Holy, and has placed His Spirit within us (Ezekiel 36:27).

This...

Um, that IS Torah! We follow His Torah because we love Him and our brother.

...is false.

This...


Ezekiel 36:27
King James Version

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.


...is the only real chance anyone has of walking in His statutes and keeping His judgments.

Not by...

Um, that IS Torah! We follow His Torah because we love Him and our brother.

You don't follow His Torah, you follow a buffet of collected rules and regulations by which you think men can be righteous.

If your teaching followed His Torah it would acknowledge Him, not what men must do. What He does in our lives, not what your teaching commands men they are supposed to do.

Using Torah in the context you (and others) have tried to use it, it is obvious you do not keep the Whole Law of God.

Our Teacher said...


Mark 7:6-8
King James Version

6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.


Go and learn what that meaneth.


God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

The issue is that he does not listen to anything that anyone says. He only wants people to agree with his statements and then manipulate that person into agreeing with these strange fringe beliefs.

It's a strange fringe belief that born-again believers are not under Law?

So you are saying that we, born-again believers, Christians—are under Law?

We are to keep the Law?

We are to keep the Ten Commandments?


God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

The issue is that he does not listen to anything that anyone says.

Not sure how addressing these posts in detail is "not listening to anything that anyone says."


God bless.

 

[John Owen]

It is the way you discuss. You always goad people with leading questions. You don't want to discuss, but lecture. You are unteachable.

 

[P1LGR1M]

The issue is that he does not listen to anything that anyone says. He only wants people to agree with his statements and then manipulate that person into agreeing with these strange fringe beliefs.

Would you mind addressing my post? I listened to what you said and commented on it. Why not address it?


What do they say about people that make derisive comments about others?

When humor is involved, I am all for it, even if it is directed at my person.

Perhaps you could explain where in this...

John Owen said: ↑
I don't think he has a job. LOL



...there is humor to be found?


God bless.