ViaCrucis

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Jesus laid hands on the little children, and an extraordinary person in the Spirit can also, and give them some grace. But they are not ready for baptism until they understand. To identify with Christ Jesus' death and resurrection, they must understand and accept it themselves. They must understand God, sin, righteousness and life and death.

Can you back these claims up with Scripture?

-CryptoLutheran
 
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GoldenKingGaze

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From a look at "Baptized" in the search, and 51 results, Matthew 3:6 to Galatians 3:27, baptism requires repentance of each person who is baptized. And it results in the Holy Spirit gifting and praying in tongues...

Children can do this if they understand, but not infants, unless by a remarkable work, the Spirit is given to them, such as by Jesus, laying on hands. Also scripture says to be strengthened in the inner man, to receive Christ. Ephesians 3:16-17.

Those baptized In the Gospel by Jesus disciples were called "disciples".
 
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The Liturgist

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From a look at "Baptized" in the search, and 51 results, Matthew 3:6 to Galatians 3:27, baptism requires repentance of each person who is baptized. And it results in the Holy Spirit gifting and praying in tongues...

It doesn’t say that…
 
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GoldenKingGaze

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It doesn’t say that…

From KJV
Matt 3:4 And the same John had his raiment of camel’s hair, and a leathern girdle about his loins; and his meat was locusts and wild honey.

Matt 3:5 Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan,

Matt 3:6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.

Matt 3:7 ¶But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

Matt 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:

For John's baptism there must be repentance from sins, and the Pharisees were not accepted on this basis.

CHAPTER 4.

John 4:1 When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John,

John 4:2 (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)

John 4:3 He left Judæa, and departed again into Galilee.

John 4:4 And he must needs go through Samaria.

Jesus baptisms were for or to make disciples.

Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Acts 2:37 ¶Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Acts 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

Again they must repent, including children, no mention of infants, they must wait, like those not yet conceived. Born and baptized maybe 7 years later? After they hear and obey the call.

Acts 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

Believe and be healed, moreso, believe and be baptized. Men and women, but no infants, maybe no children, until of understanding.

Acts 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

Acts 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

Acts 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.


Acts 11:14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.

Acts 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.

Acts 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, "John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost."

Acts 11:17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

Acts 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

The Holy Ghost can reach children. Surrounding such a thing are phenomena. But we do not know if any children were there, nor infants.


Acts 16:15 And when she was baptized, and her household, she besought us, saying, If ye have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house, and abide there. And she constrained us.

Acts 18:8 And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized.

I think there were no infants there or they'd need wait to understand and turn to Jesus confessing sins.

Acts 19:1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,

Acts 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

Acts 19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John’s baptism.

Acts 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

Acts 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

They needed to know and choose what they were to do. Until this event, they only knew of John's baptism.

Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

They had to call on the name of the Lord, which takes choice and understanding.

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

They were expected to know of Jesus death and be against sin. It takes understanding.
 
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The Liturgist

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From KJV
Matt 3:4 And the same John had his raiment of camel’s hair, and a leathern girdle about his loins; and his meat was locusts and wild honey.

Matt 3:5 Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan,

Matt 3:6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.

Matt 3:7 ¶But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

Matt 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:

For John's baptism there must be repentance from sins, and the Pharisees were not accepted on this basis.

Obviously not, since St. John baptist our Lord, who had no sins to confess. Also it does not say Pharisees and Sadducees, who did by the way represent a majority of the Jewish people, were positively refusee baptism, merely that he required from them repentance. And furthermore, it does say “Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region around Jordan,” which obviously includes infants and children.

And Baptism was not a new thing: John the Baptist was promoting repentence and the use of the traditional Hebrew ritual ablution, which we call Baptism, but what we call a Baptismal fount, the Jews which call a Mikvah, and children are immersed in them, for example, this is how girls and women are converted to Judaism, but there are other uses.

Jesus baptisms were for or to make disciples.

Sorry, but John 4 does not say that. It says “baptized and made disciples.” Not “made disciples out of everyone he baptized.”

Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Acts 2:37 ¶Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Acts 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

Again they must repent, including children, no mention of infants, they must wait, like those not yet conceived. Born and baptized maybe 7 years later? After they hear and obey the call.

Acts 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

Believe and be healed, moreso, believe and be baptized. Men and women, but no infants, maybe no children, until of understanding.

Acts 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

Acts 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

Acts 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.


Acts 11:14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.

Acts 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.

Acts 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, "John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost."

Acts 11:17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

Acts 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

The Holy Ghost can reach children. Surrounding such a thing are phenomena. But we do not know if any children were there, nor infants.


Acts 16:15 And when she was baptized, and her household, she besought us, saying, If ye have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house, and abide there. And she constrained us.

Acts 18:8 And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized.

I think there were no infants there or they'd need wait to understand and turn to Jesus confessing sins.

Acts 19:1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,

Acts 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

Acts 19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John’s baptism.

Acts 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

Acts 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

They needed to know and choose what they were to do. Until this event, they only knew of John's baptism.

Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

They had to call on the name of the Lord, which takes choice and understanding.

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

They were expected to know of Jesus death and be against sin. It takes understanding.

Forgive me, but I see a debatable interpretation, but no unambiguous statement in the scripture itself, that infants cannot be baptized.*

For no such statement exists. It is not like the Eucharist, where our Savior actually says “This is my body” and “This is my blood” and declares in John 6 that Salvation requires us to literally eat his Body and drink his Blood, which we learn from elsewhere are sacrificed for the remission of sins.

Just as I refuse to deny that the Bread and Wine do, in some way, actually become the Body and Blood of our Lord, because Christ explicitly says so, I refuse to agree that infants cannot be Baptized because nowhere does Scripture explictly deny this. If it were that simple, the majority of Protestants, and the early Church, and the Orthodox and Roman Catholics would not baptize infants. As it stands, scripture does not explicitly demand nor forbid the baptism of infants, but it does appear to implicitly require it; enough reasonable doubt exists so that I am comfortable working with Baptists, the Stone/Campbell churches, Anabaptists, Mennonites, and so on, but not enough scriptural or Patristic evidence exists for me to agree with their doctrine; indeed the fact that the continual practice of the Church since people started discussing the baptism of infants in the second century has been to baptize them, I feel obliged to adhere to that position and I am thankful my parents had me baptized as an infant.

*Far less do I see evidence that all baptized spoke in tongues. Indeed this charism as proposed by Pentecostals cannot be proven to have existed before the Azusa Street Revival, because what we see in Acts is the ability to speak languages previously unknown. The gift of tongues is in my firm opinion, based on my research and personal experience, either xenoglossia or the ability to communicate without sharing a common language, and I have not personally encountered this from a Pentecostal, but given I do know passable amounts of Koine Greek, Liturgical Byzantine Greek, Ecclesiastical Latin, Church Slavonic, and Classical Syriac, and some Christian liturgical Arabic (I have tried to understand Coptic but Afro-Asiatic languages are just too different from the four families whose languages I can understand, namely the Indo-Iranian and Semitic families, but I do know a small amount of Turkish and Japanese).
 
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Ain't Zwinglian

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  1. There is no explicit mention of a baby being baptized in the NT.
~That settles it for me~
  1. There is no explicit mention of a baby being baptized in the NT.
~That settles it for me~

Let's examine the logic behind this assumption. Sandman's rule for interpreting Scripture is if there is no explicit command to do something or anything, it should not be practiced.

There is no explicit command for women to take holy communion. We have no example and no teaching for women to take holy communion.

This being the case, why do credobaptists allow women to take holy communion? Clearly, they are going against there own rules for interpreting Scripture. Credobaptists are in a world of hurt trying to justify not baptizing infants and allowing women to take holy communion.

Paedobaptists baptize infants and allow women to take holy communion FOR THE VERY SAME REASON. Baptism and Holy Communion are God's action to mankind not man's action to God. A world of difference.
 
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ViaCrucis

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From KJV
Matt 3:4 And the same John had his raiment of camel’s hair, and a leathern girdle about his loins; and his meat was locusts and wild honey.

Matt 3:5 Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan,

Matt 3:6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.

Matt 3:7 ¶But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

Matt 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:

For John's baptism there must be repentance from sins, and the Pharisees were not accepted on this basis.

CHAPTER 4.

John 4:1 When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John,

John 4:2 (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)

John 4:3 He left Judæa, and departed again into Galilee.

John 4:4 And he must needs go through Samaria.

Jesus baptisms were for or to make disciples.

Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Acts 2:37 ¶Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Acts 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

Again they must repent, including children, no mention of infants, they must wait, like those not yet conceived. Born and baptized maybe 7 years later? After they hear and obey the call.

Acts 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

Believe and be healed, moreso, believe and be baptized. Men and women, but no infants, maybe no children, until of understanding.

Acts 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

Acts 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

Acts 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.


Acts 11:14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.

Acts 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.

Acts 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, "John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost."

Acts 11:17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

Acts 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

The Holy Ghost can reach children. Surrounding such a thing are phenomena. But we do not know if any children were there, nor infants.


Acts 16:15 And when she was baptized, and her household, she besought us, saying, If ye have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house, and abide there. And she constrained us.

Acts 18:8 And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized.

I think there were no infants there or they'd need wait to understand and turn to Jesus confessing sins.

Acts 19:1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,

Acts 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

Acts 19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John’s baptism.

Acts 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

Acts 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

They needed to know and choose what they were to do. Until this event, they only knew of John's baptism.

Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

They had to call on the name of the Lord, which takes choice and understanding.

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

They were expected to know of Jesus death and be against sin. It takes understanding.

A fairly significant problem here is that you are conflating John's baptism of repentance with Christian Baptism. But these aren't the same thing.

Jesus instituted His baptism--Christian Baptism--in the Great Commission, "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit".

The very first reference of Christian Baptism taking place isn't until Acts 2, when the three thousand Jewish pilgrims were baptized and became Christians (Acts of the Apostles 2:41).

Your commentary on many of these verses introduces a lot of assumptions that the text itself doesn't require. For one, Acts 22:16 doesn't say that they had to call on Christ before being baptized, but rather places the calling on the name of the Lord as being part of the baptism itself--they are calling on His name by being baptized. Romans 6:3 does not say we have to understand the atoning work of Jesus, it says what Baptism itself does and means: the one who is baptized (regardless if they understand it or not) is baptized into Jesus, His death, and thus are buried with Him by Baptism, and raised up to new life with Him.

You are forcing your doctrine into the text, rather than the text becoming your doctrine. The words of the text mean what they say, you don't need to improve the Bible, the Bible doesn't need improving, it's already perfect.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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sandman

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There is no explicit command for women to take holy communion. We have no example and no teaching for women to take holy communion.[/QUOTE]
There is no explicit command… that men take communion either. 1Co 11:26 does advocate all of us to do this For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

And since 1 Cor was written to the Church of God (1Co 1:2) It included male & female.

Baptism and Holy Communion are God's action to mankind not man's action to God. A world of difference.

Gods action to mankind is what God accepted on our behalf… and all that was bestowed to us in that acceptance…. which can be found in the Word. It is not something that man initiates of his own making …. that’s just religion…. and religion is the actions (symbolism, rituals, & deeds) of what man thinks of God. (i.e. Things not found in the Word)
 
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Ain't Zwinglian

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There is no explicit command… that men take communion either.

Excuse me? What version of the Bible do you read?....the RV (Reversed Version)? The Lord's supper was instituted and given in the presence of men (Luke 22, Mt 26 and Mk 14). You might want to brush up on your basic Biblical knowledge.
 
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GoldenKingGaze

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Obviously not, since St. John baptist our Lord, who had no sins to confess. Also it does not say Pharisees and Sadducees, who did by the way represent a majority of the Jewish people, were positively refusee baptism, merely that he required from them repentance. And furthermore, it does say “Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region around Jordan,” which obviously includes infants and children.

It was only Jesus who never sinned. And the people John rejected were the wrong element of the Pharisees, Jesus warned His disciples about their leaven and called them unmarked graves. John's baptism required confessing sins.
Jesus' baptism required comprehension also. Judea is a region, and it does not mean absolutely all the people there.

And Baptism was not a new thing: John the Baptist was promoting repentence and the use of the traditional Hebrew ritual ablution, which we call Baptism, but what we call a Baptismal fount, the Jews which call a Mikvah, and children are immersed in them, for example, this is how girls and women are converted to Judaism, but there are other uses.

Sorry, but John 4 does not say that. It says “baptized and made disciples.” Not “made disciples out of everyone he baptized.”

Jesus disciples were baptizing and making disciples. I just read from your reference. All those baptized had been or were becoming Jesus' disciples.

Forgive me, but I see a debatable interpretation, but no unambiguous statement in the scripture itself, that infants cannot be baptized.*

For no such statement exists. It is not like the Eucharist, where our Savior actually says “This is my body” and “This is my blood” and declares in John 6 that Salvation requires us to literally eat his Body and drink his Blood, which we learn from elsewhere are sacrificed for the remission of sins.

Just as I refuse to deny that the Bread and Wine do, in some way, actually become the Body and Blood of our Lord, because Christ explicitly says so, I refuse to agree that infants cannot be Baptized because nowhere does Scripture explictly deny this. If it were that simple, the majority of Protestants, and the early Church, and the Orthodox and Roman Catholics would not baptize infants. As it stands, scripture does not explicitly demand nor forbid the baptism of infants, but it does appear to implicitly require it; enough reasonable doubt exists so that I am comfortable working with Baptists, the Stone/Campbell churches, Anabaptists, Mennonites, and so on, but not enough scriptural or Patristic evidence exists for me to agree with their doctrine; indeed the fact that the continual practice of the Church since people started discussing the baptism of infants in the second century has been to baptize them, I feel obliged to adhere to that position and I am thankful my parents had me baptized as an infant.

*Far less do I see evidence that all baptized spoke in tongues. Indeed this charism as proposed by Pentecostals cannot be proven to have existed before the Azusa Street Revival, because what we see in Acts is the ability to speak languages previously unknown. The gift of tongues is in my firm opinion, based on my research and personal experience, either xenoglossia or the ability to communicate without sharing a common language, and I have not personally encountered this from a Pentecostal, but given I do know passable amounts of Koine Greek, Liturgical Byzantine Greek, Ecclesiastical Latin, Church Slavonic, and Classical Syriac, and some Christian liturgical Arabic (I have tried to understand Coptic but Afro-Asiatic languages are just too different from the four families whose languages I can understand, namely the Indo-Iranian and Semitic families, but I do know a small amount of Turkish and Japanese).
The Roman Catholics have always believed in the gift of tongues, and there is the Charis movement.
Some of the quotes on baptism refer to gifting on rising from the water. The argument from Gordon Fee on tongues is a good one, and his successor student is Rikk Watts, lecturer at Regent College Vancouver. I may check Craig Keener also.

A person must be open to the Holy Spirit with understanding to be baptized.
 
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Ain't Zwinglian

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It is not something that man initiates of his own making …. that’s just religion…. and religion is the actions (symbolism, rituals, & deeds) of what man thinks of God. (i.e. Things not found in the Word)

Such as the "Age of Accountability." That teaching is not found in the Word.

And the credobaptist definition of baptism is not found in the Word either..."An outward response to an inward decision."

These are the teaching of the doctrines of man not God. (Mark 7)
 
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The Liturgist

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Excuse me? What version of the Bible do you read?....the RV (Reversed Version)? The Lord's supper was instituted and given in the presence of men (Luke 22, Mt 26 and Mk 14). You might want to brush up on your basic Biblical knowledge.

Indeed, “This do ye in remembrance of me until I come…” Baptists partake of Communion even though they regard it as a mere memorial because it is an Ordinance, just as they practice Baptism for the same reason.

The most literal reading of the texts on the Eucharist however is the view held by Lutherans, Orthodox, Assyrians and Roman Catholics, and the more high church Anglicans. I particularly like your username because beyond Calvinism, with his doctrine of a spiritual but not physical presence, the more low church approaches like Zwingli’s view of the Eucharist as a sign or symbol I find it very challenging to reconcile with scripture.
 
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sandman

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Such as the "Age of Accountability." That teaching is not found in the Word.

And the credobaptist definition of baptism is not found in the Word either..."An outward response to an inward decision."

These are the teaching of the doctrines of man not God. (Mark 7)

Well, yes an no …accountability is just a reference to understanding. And it is necessary to understand if we are to accept the new covenant (Rom 10:9) and be baptized in the spirit.

For my kids it was age 6 & 7 that they accepted Jesus as their Lord and both spoke in tongues….but it varies with the individual.

Prior to accountably (understanding) they are sanctified by their parents 1Co 7:14.
 
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sandman

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Excuse me? What version of the Bible do you read?....the RV (Reversed Version)? The Lord's supper was instituted and given in the presence of men (Luke 22, Mt 26 and Mk 14). You might want to brush up on your basic Biblical knowledge.

I have to check….

My Bible say HOLY ….Sooo I guess… I have the “Holy Bible” version ………Which one do you have???

The Lord’s supper was performed on the night he was betrayed. But we, in the grace administration are instructed by Jesus to perform as we deem necessary…. as noted in my previous post 1Co 11:26
 
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Ain't Zwinglian

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There is no explicit command… that men take communion either. https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/1co/11/26/s_1073026

You asserted that there was no specific command or example that men took communion.

By asserting the opposite, you are promoting the "doctrines of men" not God. (Mark 7) This is fairly typical of American Evangelicalism. Saying the opposite of what Scripture states. This is most certainly true.
 
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Ain't Zwinglian

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I have the “Holy Bible” version

Never heard of a "Holy Bible" version. What language is it? Norwegian, Swedish, Australian, Nigerian? Please explain why your "Holy Bible" version is so much superior to other bible translations. Who publishes the "Holy Version" of the Bible? I need to get one because you recommended it. Who are the translators of this "Holy Bible" version? Sounds to me like they graduated from the "Dr. Suess School of Theology."
 
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You asserted that there was no specific command or example that men took communion.

By asserting the opposite, you are promoting the "doctrines of men" not God. (Mark 7) This is fairly typical of American Evangelicalism. Saying the opposite of what Scripture states. This is most certainly true.

If it is a commandment of God ….show me!

You stated I am promoting the doctrines of men ….and yet…. what you are stating is not in the Bible.

It may be a denominational commandment which would make that “a doctrine of men”, but it is not something God commanded us to do.

As I have stated ....this is the admonishment we in the body of Christ are to do accordingly → 1Co 11:23 - 32 ………And those are the Words from Jesus Christ.
 
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Ain't Zwinglian

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If it is a commandment of God ….show me!

You stated I am promoting the doctrines of men ….and yet…. what you are stating is not in the Bible.

I don't know what you are stating. Please rewrite. Although at this point, I probably will not reply back. This conversation is going no where.
 
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WanderedHome

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I'm not sure where I stand on this. That is why I would like to hear what others think. I am somewhat leaning more towards Credobaptism because:

  1. There is no explicit mention of a baby being baptized in the NT
  2. No early church writings say anything about pedobaptism. To the contrary, they only talk about credobaptism. It seems the practice starts to become more common at the end of the second century/beginning of thrid century (Hippolytus, Origen, Cyprian)

I can see the argument for both- personally, I lead toward pedobaptism with a strong emphasis on the need for heart conversion as well. My best argument, Scripturally, is that baptism is the New Covenant equivalent of circumcision (Col 2:11-12, for example). Everyone from 8 days old was to be circumcised and included in the Covenant. Of Course, this is only the ideal as we know that people stray from the faith and grow up to reject God all the time. This was obvious in the OT with the nation of Israel. This is why no one can rely on their circumcision, fathers of the flesh, or their childhood baptism alone to save them. We can all agree there must be a conversion of the heart. God of course knew people would still reject the covenant, but He still calls us to the ideal (relationship with Himself) so He commanded every male 8 days old and on be circumcised. With baptism, now ALL can be baptized and receive the benefits of the Covenant, not just males. It would be backwards to say that "well, I'll just let my kid choose for him/herself." It would be like saying, "I won't train my dog, but I'll just let it decide for itself to pee outside and choose to listen to me." If you have to lead and teach a dog, you've got to lead and teach children, lol! They receive the earthly benefits of the Covenant, but without faith, that will be their only reward.

The other aspect here is that "baptism saves," but salvation is multi-faceted. Baptism saves in the sense that it separates you from the world, your past sins, and leads to a life of holiness within the Church (and this is a tremendous blessing!), but you still have accept the faith for yourself. If you go on sinning after receiving knowledge of the truth, what hope remains? It is more than simply being declared legally justified. A judge can let a criminal off and give him a second chance, even if the judge's own son offers to pay his debt, but the criminal needs to still have a change of heart and be reformed. Without that, he will likely just go back out and keep breaking the laws maybe even becoming more evil since he thinks there is no punishment; and when he stands before the judge the 2nd, 3rd, 100th time, he will not get off so easy. He can't just rely on that one time where the judge was merciful to him. The history of human nature proves that not everyone will be moved to conversion, even if their highest debt is paid by another. I am not just talking about relying on baptism to be saved, but also, relying on a one-time "decision for Christ" as an adult. Baptism and praying the "sinner's prayer," is an important and influential one-time event, but we have to decide every day to follow Christ. Those baptized as adults don't have any less responsibility than those baptized as infants.
 
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