Will you let the bible ...

[Hammster]

oh, so we’re perfect now? We don’t need to put to death the deeds of the flesh by the Spirit in order to gain eternal life as per Rom 8:12-13? Or confess our sins in order to be purified of all unrighteousness as per 1 John 1? You never sin in thought, word, or deed because your sins have been taken away?

You forgot Romans 8:1 (not to mention the other 7 chapters). You have to go through there to get to verses 12 and 13. This is why context is important. You can’t just stand on third base and claim to hit a triple.

 

[fhansen]

You forgot Romans 8:1 (not to mention the other 7 chapters). You have to go through there to get to verses 12 and 13. This is why context is important. You can’t just stand on third base and claim to hit a triple.

Ah, but those other chapters all support that passage perfectly just as it reads. Why would you think otherwise? In fact, Rom 8:1-4 is the perfect intro for 8:12-13 because together they show that God, by the Spirit, can accomplish in us what we could not do ourselves, on the basis of the law.

"Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death. For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit."

Our job is to live by the Spirit, under grace, to remain in Him, seeking to do His will. He will ensure that the righteous requirement of the law is fully met in us-because it's right; He will put His law in our minds and write it on our hearts, Jer 31, with a new righteousness that comes from Him, on the basis of faith, Phil 3:9.

This righteousness is a gift:
"But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe." Rom 3:21-22

"For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!" Rom 5:17

That is meant to lead to holiness and its end, eternal life:
"But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." Rom 6:22-23

"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live." Rom 8:12-13

"Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord." Heb 12:14

There's no condemnation for those who've washed their robes, by the Spirit. Rev 22:14

 

[Hammster]

Ah, but those other chapters all support that passage perfectly just as it reads.Why would you think otherwise? In fact, TRom 8:1-4 is the perfect intro for 8:12-13 because together they show that, God, by the Spirit, can accomplish in us what we could not do ourselves, on the basis of the law.

"Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death. For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit."

Our job is to live by the Spirit, under grace, to remain in Him, seeking to do His will. He will ensure that the righteous requirement of the law is fully met in us; He will put His law in our minds and wriite it on our hearts, Jer 31, with a new righteousness that comes from Him and is based on faith, Phil 3:9.

"But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe." Rom 3:21-22

This righteousness is a gift:
"For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!" Rom 5:17

That is meant to lead to holiness and its end, eternal life:
"But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." Rom 6:22-23

"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live." Rom 8:12-13

Yep, you continue to chop it up, even Romans 8. Your theology is merit-based. That is true opposite of grace.

 

[fhansen]

Yep, you continue to chop it up, even Romans 8. Your theology is merit-based. That is true opposite of grace.

I can't read the whole bible for you, not to mention the ECFs, early church histories and teachings, conciliar pronouncements, etc. Maybe I should just cut and paste all of Romans? Would that help? It might require several posts tho. I can only try to cut through the error in your thinking by showing how Romans presents a seamless pattern of explanation and instruction of how grace works, and man's role in accepting and working together with God through that grace. Then all of Jesus's, Jame's, John's, and Paul's statements easily reconcile, incidentally. When you can reconcile these, you'll better understand the gospel:

"If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.” Matt 19:17

"To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life." Rom 2:7

"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." Rom 2:13

"Know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ." Rom 2:16

"You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone." James 2:24

"...not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith." Phil 3:9

Read my previous post again if you will, thoughtfully.

 

[Clare73]

Nobody said it's Old Covenant law.

And? . . .

 

[Clare73]

I can't read the whole bible for you, not to mention the ECFs, early church histories and teachings, conciliar pronouncements, etc. Maybe I should just cut and paste all of Romans? Would that help? It might require several posts tho. I can only try to cut through the error in your thinking by showing how Romans presents a seamless pattern of explanation and instruction of how grace works, and man's role in accepting and working together with God through that grace. Then all of Jesus's, Jame's, John's, and Paul's statements easily reconcile, incidentally.

When you can reconcile these, you'll better understand the gospel:

"If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.” Matt 19:17

Jesus was born, lived, preached and died under the Old Covenant and its Law.
When asked questions about eternal life, he answered them according to the Old Covenant and its Law.

"To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life." Rom 2:7

"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." Rom 2:13

"Know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ." Rom 2:16

"You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone." James 2:24

"...not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith." Phil 3:9

Read my previous post again if you will, thoughtfully.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Okay, I see this is more of a game than a conversation. Thanks ;-)

Why didn't you ask @Hammster why he went where he did? Was he implying something? Did he have a point to make? Ask.

 

[fhansen]

Jesus was born, lived, preached and died under the Old Covenant and its Law.
When asked questions by Jews, he answered them according to the Old Covenant and its Law.

That's a standard contrived answer made to order for the purpose of supporting a particualr novel theology. Jesus taught the gospel, the new covenant. He didn't come to tell anyone what they'd already been told. And Paul and others echo it on top of that anyway.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Perhaps mercy is greater than justice?

James 2:13 For judgement is without mercy to one who has shown no mercy; yet mercy triumphs over judgement.​

Judgement and Justice are not quite the same thing here. Mercy triumphs over the judgement already mentioned contextually, but Justice will necessarily be done. That doesn't mean Mercy is not greater than, or that it does not trump Judgement, but it does not trump Justice, nor, in the case of the Elect, does Justice trump Mercy.

 

[Hammster]

I can't read the whole bible for you, not to mention the ECFs, early church histories and teachings, conciliar pronouncements, etc. Maybe I should just cut and paste all of Romans? Would that help? It might require several posts tho. I can only try to cut through the error in your thinking by showing how Romans presents a seamless pattern of explanation and instruction of how grace works, and man's role in accepting and working together with God through that grace. Then all of Jesus's, Jame's, John's, and Paul's statements easily reconcile, incidentally. When you can reconcile these, you'll better understand the gospel:

"If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.” Matt 19:17

"To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life." Rom 2:7

"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." Rom 2:13

"Know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ." Rom 2:16

"You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone." James 2:24

"...not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith." Phil 3:9

Read my previous post again if you will, thoughtfully.

Look, a whole post of out-of-context verses. You’ve really made my point.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Is not mercy compassionate? Is it not rooted in empathy and understanding coupled with love? Mercy triumphs over justice is a lesson worth learning.

No. It is rooted in God making us for his own purposes.

 

[fhansen]

Look, a whole post of out-of-context verses. You’ve really made my point.

So, how do you do it? Do you just post the entire bible when you want to make a point? I'll translate your thought. You don't like that which conflicts with your preconceived theology inherited from a group of private interpreters who came before you. Start reading and thinking for yourself. To the extent that you do, you'll increasingly agree with the basic teachings of the early church, to your own surprise. Seek and study more.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Yes, provided he removes the cancer with the patients consent, and does so using all appropriate standards of care for sterile operating conditions, infectious risk reduction, pain management, interoperative safety, perioperative comfort, and so on.

That's an interesting way to look at it. But let's say, for example, the patient has a brain tumor that in some way, perhaps by inducing a pervasive anger, inhibits or prohibits the patient from making that choice for his own good, or even understanding what is at stake...

 

[Clare73]

That's a standard contrived answer made to order for the purpose of
supporting a particualr novel theology.

Your assertion falls somewhat short of a Biblical demonstration, without which it has no merit.

 

[bbbbbbb]

That's an interesting way to look at it. But let's say, for example, the patient has a brain tumor that in some way, perhaps by inducing a pervasive anger, inhibits or prohibits the patient from making that choice for his own good, or even understanding what is at stake...

That is a fine counter analogy. Thank you. There is usually a counter analogy for every analogy.

 

[Mark Quayle]

That’s to be under grace because only He can fulfill it in us as we turn to Him in faith and remain in Him, cooperating with His work in us.

I'm wondering if you aren't actually thinking, instead of what you wrote, "...only He can fulfill it in us as we turn to Him in faith and remain in Him, cooperating with His work in us." you actually mean, "...He can fulfill it in us only as we turn to Him in faith and remain in Him, cooperating with His work in us."

This cooperative effort for a greater effect than the effort of God alone, really contradicts the meaning of Grace, in the Gospel.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Why didn't you ask @Hammster why he went where he did? Was he implying something? Did he have a point to make? Ask.

I have a theory, which may be wrong. The theory is that when a person has a point then that person will state it sooner or later without being asked to do so.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Judgement and Justice are not quite the same thing here. Mercy triumphs over the judgement already mentioned contextually, but Justice will necessarily be done. That doesn't mean Mercy is not greater than, or that it does not trump Judgement, but it does not trump Justice, nor, in the case of the Elect, does Justice trump Mercy.

If justice were abstract and not concrete, then I would agree with you. But it seems to me that justice is concrete and is to be done rather than apprehended and not done. A justice conceived and not done is a kind of injustice. Thus, judgement is justice done and mercy is holding back on the sentence of justice because mercy is love done to the unworthy.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

No. It is rooted in God making us for his own purposes.

I was thinking of Saint Paul's poetic praise of love in First Corinthians chapter thirteen.

1 Corinthians 13:4-8 4 Love is always patient and kind; love is never jealous; love is not boastful or conceited, 5 it is never rude and never seeks its own advantage, it does not take offence or store up grievances. 6 Love does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but finds its joy in the truth. 7 It is always ready to make allowances, to trust, to hope and to endure whatever comes. 8 Love never comes to an end. ...
​

 

[Hammster]

So, how do you do it? Do you just post the entire bible when you want to make a point? I'll translate your thought. You don't like that which conflicts with your preconceived theology inherited from a group of private interpreters who came before you. Start reading and thinking for yourself. To the extent that you do, you'll increasingly agree with the basic teachings of the early church, to your own surprise. Seek and study more.

I post in context. I don’t take pet verses and throw them together as if it’s an argument. That’s how hermeneutics is done.