Why hasn't Christian universalism ever gone away?

[wendykvw]

And all three positions are not correct. Only one can be correct.



More falsehood: that it is okay for Christians to have very opposing doctrines.


1 Corinthians 1:10-11
King James Version

10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.


Jesus Christ, Himself dismissed annihilation:


Matthew 22:23-24
King James Version

23 The same day came to him the Sadducees, which say that there is no resurrection, and asked him,

24 Saying, Master, Moses said, If a man die, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.


Matthew 22:28-29
King James Version

28 Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her.

29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.


It would seem there would be a consensus among Christians that Annihilation is a doctrinew that has already been dismissed as valid by Jesus Christ and later by Paul in his appeal to Pharisees:


Acts 23:6-8
King James Version

6 But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question.

7 And when he had so said, there arose a dissension between the Pharisees and the Sadducees: and the multitude was divided.

8 For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, neither angel, nor spirit: but the Pharisees confess both.


And it has been contended by those who view Christ's position to be everlasting punishment with those who teach universal salvation and what we see is a number of out-of-context proof texts that have been addressed (in detailed fashion) yet there is no response to the address of the improper use of these texts.

So far, Isaiah 45 is the only one that has been given any response at all in a manner that would qualify as doctrinal debate (on the matter of "forced worship").




In your encouragement of at least one annihilationist in these threads you violate a very basic principle of Christian Doctrine. You are encouraging people that they can believe whatever it is they want to believe.

There is a consensus on all Major Doctrine among Christians, beginning with Who's Name we are baptized for in Paul's rebuke above.


God bless.

Annihilation has been a view of many faithful people within the Christian faith. I do not judge anyones relationship with God. Rather, I love all people and accept those who faith is at a different stage. Some are mere babies, some are adults. Spiritual milk or solid food, all at a different stages, all learning through their faithfulness.

 

[wendykvw]

How hard is it to understand Universal Salvation? That all will be saved. That is what Universal Salvation means.

As far as you not seeing anything that refutes your views, I will just present a few, beginning with the teaching that God will not force worship on anyone, but will save all men:










These are examples of "forced worship," the bowing of the knee of unbelievers and demons to the truth of God's Sovereignty.

That you won't recognize it as such is not surprising, seeing that you have already admitted you approach Scripture with a biased view seeking to prooftext your view.

Here is another of your statements:





Your proof text is refuted without controversy.

Go ahead, publicly declare that your prooftext isn't out of context, and does teach "He will give all people a heart to know Him, worship Him and Love Him..willingly Jer 24:7."

I don't know how you are going to do that and be at peace with yourself.

These are just two of the issues raised and points refuted using your prooftexts. And only Isaiah 45 has been addressed. You can't show that you aren't using Scripture out of context and the only thing that remains to be seen in this discussion is whether you are doing it intentionally or not. I would like to hope that wasn't the case.


Continued...

You need to concise your replies into one. Why did you change your denomination from Baptist. Curious why the change, are you no
longer Baptist?

 

[BobRyan]

You guys usually apply Matt 7 to anyone who's not a Saturday Sabbatarian.

IN my experience we apply it to a great many situations. I prefer my own experience with SDAs on this to a non-SDA evaluation of SDA

 

[wendykvw]

It's a false argument: nothing in Scripture supports the hatred of the KKK.

So they did not use the Bible to form their ideology, they used the Bible to proof text their ideology.

What they wanted to believe, not what Scripture actually teaches.


God bless.

You have a hard time understanding the most basic facts of psychology.

 

[wendykvw]

Adam isn't responsible for our sin either, he is responsible for our separation from God.

We won't have Adam at our judgment either, we will be judged according to our own sin:


Romans 5:14
King James Version

14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.


Romans 2:13-16
King James Version

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.


Even Gentiles who did not have the Law had the opportunity to obey God's will as written on their hearts, and by this, they were justified or unjust.

"The devil made me do it" is not going to be a defense that will be taken up by anyone that stands before God, because Satan's judgment, and Adam's judgment—will be irrelevant to theirs.




It's a false charge: I've read enough of this member's posts to know he doesn't view "Christ is weaker than Satan."

And that is how your belief system stands: on false pretenses.

He makes a very valid point: First Century Greek-speaking people would have a better idea of how to interpret the Greek Language.

Nowhere has he said "Christ is weaker than Satan." That arises out of your personal view that if people think God can't save the lost through Christ they must assuredly believe Christ is weaker than Satan. That premise is false when directed at an antagonist and it is false in light of the teaching of Scripture.

At no time did the Sovereignty of God lapse over all of His Creation, whether that involves this creation or those that came before.

Satan's judgment is already set, and we see that men will face the same judgment:


Matthew 25:41
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:


Matthew 8:29
And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?


Revelation 20:10
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


The Doctrine of Hell doesn't stand on just the translation of one word, it relies on the Whole of Scripture's teaching.

And it is clear that Christ and the Apostles taught that the Lost will be eternally separated from God in everlasting punishment, torment, and separation.


God bless.

Your concept is false. And again you entirely missed the point.

 

[BobRyan]

Bob, you have already admitted not being able to understand the concept of those who are dead being "alive" without having Eternal Life,

Matthew 10:28
King James Version

28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

This means the soul while it is not killed in the first death and still exists - yet it is what Paul calls "asleep in Jesus" as we see in 1 Thess 4:13-18 as stated repeatedly.

Quote me if you want to attribute something to me.

 

[P1LGR1M]

Annihilation has been a view of many faithful people within the Christian faith. I do not judge anyones relationship with God. Rather, I love all people and accept those who faith is at a different stage. Some are mere babies, some are adults. Spiritual milk or solid food, all at a different stages, all learning through their faithfulness.

I have been clear many times that because I view your teaching and the teaching of annihilationists to be false doctrine doesn't mean I deny people can be saved and embrace such error.

So please spare me the "I accept everyone" talk.

And I will maintain my position that teachers that teach it is okay to embrace any teaching are to be avoided. Show me in Scripture this ecumenical position. We don't see that, error is taken very seriously, and we have a mandate to address error.


God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

Matthew 10:28
King James Version

28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

This means the soul while it is not killed in the first death and still exists - yet it is what Paul calls "asleep in Jesus" as we see in 1 Thess 4:13-18 as stated repeatedly.

Quote me if you want to attribute something to me.

I have quoted you many times. I have made it clear I view soul sleep to be a doctrine of cults, as well as annihilation.

Address those posts if you wish.


God bless.

 

[BobRyan]

Sorry, but you have several false premises that have to be dealt with:

1. I have never said God doesn't destroy the wicked, I have simply kept a Biblical usage for the word translated destroy

IN Matt 10:28 the text does not say "destroy" means to keep alive. Rather it presents a progression from merely "kill" to "destroy". A body may be killed but not destroyed. But a body cannot be destroyed without killing it also. It is a progression of concept. Obviously.

Matthew 10:28
King James Version

28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.


Rev 20:9 “Fire DEVOURED the wicked”
9 And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them.

Rev 11:18 “Destroy those who Destroy the earth”

2Thess 1:9 The wicked pay the “penalty of eternal Destruction”

Ps 21:8-10 “devoured” – “Destroyed”

"Destroy" by "reducing them to ashes..

The idea that "destroy" means - "gets eternal life and exists forever" is not once a claim in scripture.

Your argument above is for the wicked having both immortal bodies and immortal souls that even God himself is not able to destroy as in "kill". That is quite a stretch!! It is sticking a big "NOT!" in front of Christ's statement rather than allowing the "progression of concept" Christ presents where he goes BEYOND kill to outright destroy.

To kill a body and go beyond that to also DESTROY the body is not even remotely "so of course would not kill the body". That statement of Christ has not logical way to spin back around on itself the way you suggest.

=================

No wonder the "final end of the wicked" is expressed this way in scripture..



Destruction: Matt 10:28
Which is what we find in Luke 17 regarding Sodom
Luke 17:29
but on the day that Lot went out from Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. (destroy - Apollumi )


Which is why it is so instructive to see in 2 Peter 2 "destroyed by reducing them to ashes" that we see in 2 Peter 2

2 Peter 2:6
6 and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes,


"cease to be" - Satan - the covering cherub... reduced to ashes as well.

Ezek 28: 14
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 You were blameless in your ways
From the day you were created
Until unrighteousness was found in you.
16 By the abundance of your trade
You were internally filled with violence,
And you sinned;
Therefore I have cast you as profane
From the mountain of God.
And I have destroyed you, you covering cherub,
From the midst of the stones of fire.
17 Your heart was haughty because of your beauty;
You corrupted your wisdom by reason of your splendor.
I threw you to the ground;
I put you before kings,
That they may see you.
18 By the multitude of your wrongdoings,
In the unrighteousness of your trade
You profaned your sanctuaries.
Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you;
It has consumed you,
And I have turned you to ashes on the earth
In the eyes of all who see you.
19 All who know you among the peoples
Are appalled at you;
You have become terrified
And you will cease to be forever.”’”

The wicked ... consumed/devoured... Rev 20
7 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. 9 And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them.

 

[wendykvw]

Oh, ye of little faith.

The Bible Student is not left to their own by God.

Every mind is prejudiced when they are saved, and this is just one of the issues God deals with in our lives as He leads and guides us into all truth.

You have divorced God from a proper understanding of Scripture.




It hasn't been childish accusations, it has been direct responses to your teachings that show you have taught error.

Such as God will not force worship. You cannot see that He does indeed force worship because you rely on your limited understanding of worship. It is a syllogistic approach used by all false teachers.




Again, syllogism:

Major premise: Satan destroyed the lost.

Minor premise: God is more powerful than Satan.

Conclusion: if you believe men will be lost you believe that Satan is more powerful than God.


Satan had no interaction with Adam, and Adam is charged with willful sin. Eve was deceived, but Adam has no such excuse.

Men do not need Satan (who is not an omniscient being) to sin, nor will men stand before God with Satan at their side for him to partake of their judgment, and give an account of his culpability in their judgment.

Satan did not "destroy" mankind, mankind destroyed mankind, and God has given mankind every opportunity to escape judgment.

And it is mankind, and mankind alone—individually—who will give an account for their words and deeds.




If you would but acknowledge the attempts to show the error seen by the opposing view you might be able to dismiss the proof texts you support your view with.

You are not excused from being honest in your studies. You are not excused from being reasonable in regards to points made that you completely ignore. When you offer proof texts and someone shows why they are taken out of context you should be mature enough to acknowledge error.




In other words, "I am comfortable proof texting what I want to believe."


Continued...

I completely understand how and why you think the way you do.

 

[P1LGR1M]

You need to concise your replies into one. Why did you change your denomination from Baptist. Curious why the change, are you no
longer Baptist?

I am still a Baptist.

Could you quote me saying I am no longer a Baptist?

Remember, I said John was a Baptist, the Apostles were Baptists, Christ is still a Baptist, so I see no reason not to be a Baptist myself?


God bless.

 

[wendykvw]

It is Judicial. It has nothing to do with God being a "mean, angry God" getting back at those who did not obey Him.



The context defines the duration, and there are numerous contexts that make it clear the punishment is everlasting.

Eternal and everlasting are used interchangeably in translations based on, in my opinion, the quality of the translator. "Eternal" can be used when the context is eternal. In regards to ETernal Life," there is indeed an eternal context because the Life we receive is in fact Eternal because we receive the Life of God Himself—Who is Eternal.

Eternal Life is also everlasting life. The dead will live everlasting but they do not have Eternal Life because they are not in Christ.


Matthew 25:46
King James Version

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


It is my opinion that this could read "eternal punishment" because Hell, the Lake of Fire—is outside of this universe, just as Heaven is. The "Eternal" refers to God's Realm and that which is part of a spiritual world we do not really understand at this time. This universe passes away and the Lake of Fire is still in existence. In Heaven? Not really possible since death (which is separation) will not exist in the Eternal State.

We also see an everlasting duration of Everlasting Punishment based on the wording of several passages teaching us about the fate of the lost:


Revelation 20:10
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


Day and night forever and ever" doesn't leave a lot of room for "an age" of puishment.


Jude
King James Version

4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.


You teach that men that deny the only Lord God and Jesus Christ will simply get a spanking and then they will go into the Eternal State and be part of the One Fold.


7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.


The imagery here is these people are an example of those who are suffering (not will suffer, not have suffered) the vengeance of eternal fire, meaning—the judgment of the Eternal God.

There is a reason why most translations have eternal.


12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;


You teach that the Lord was wrong when He said "Except a man be born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God.

They are "twice dead" because they are destined to suffer the Second Death, the second separation from God.


13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.


You can't reasonably conclude, after reading all of the passages teaching about the destination of the Lost—that their reservation is just for an "age."

And when the scholars that have translated this verse as the blackness of darkness is reserved forever there seems to be a consensus as to the context and meaning.

And just as in every teaching concerning Eternal Punishment, thses are contrasted with those who will not go into Everlasting Punishment:


20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,

21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.


It matters whether people believe in Jesus Christ. It matters that people obey the Gospel.

In this life.


Continued...

Thanks for sharing your presuppositions. Noted on my iPad.

 

[P1LGR1M]

Your concept is false. And again you entirely missed the point.

So you are suggesting that Satan and Adam will be there to accept culpability for your sin?

God bless.

 

[wendykvw]

I am still a Baptist.

Could you quote me saying I am no longer a Baptist?

Remember, I said John was a Baptist, the Apostles were Baptists, Christ is still a Baptist, so I see no reason not to be a Baptist myself?


God bless.

Your profile was changed from Baptist to Christian. What type of Baptist are you? Free will Baptist, Reformed Baptist, Westbro Baptist, Southern Baptist? I may have miss other varieties, but please enlighten me of your variety?

 

[P1LGR1M]

IN Matt 10:28 the text does not say "destroy" means to keep alive. Rather it presents a progression from merely "kill" to "destroy". A body may be killed but not destroyed. But a body cannot be destroyed without killing it also. It is a progression of concept. Obviously.

Matthew 10:28
King James Version

28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.


Rev 20:9 “Fire DEVOURED the wicked”

Rev 11:18 “Destroy those who Destroy the earth”

2Thess 1:9 The wicked pay the “penalty of eternal Destruction”

Ps 21:8-10 “devoured” – “Destroyed”

Address the responses to this argument already given, Bob.

That is one of the reasons why false doctrine persists and has strongholds on forums, because people stay on one forum reiterating their beliefs and trying their best to keep people from seeing the responses to such nonsense.

Do those in Sodom still await Eternal Judgment or not?


God bless.

 

[wendykvw]

So you are suggesting that Satan and Adam will be there to accept culpability for your sin?

God bless.

No. Do you reject the doctrine of original sin?

 

[P1LGR1M]

Your profile was changed from Baptist to Christian. What type of Baptist are you? Free will Baptist, Reformed Baptist, Westbro Baptist, Southern Baptist? I may have miss other varieties, but please enlighten me of your variety?

I have already told you.

It didn't matter then, why would it be of consequence now?

As far as posting as a Christian instead of a Baptist you show the necessity. Because many will assume that because one is a Baptist they must believe a certain way, despite there being differing types of Baptist (as you note above.).

Right now I am attending a Baptist Fellowship that calls themselves "Independant Baptist" though they do not embrace certain views of certain "Independant Baptists," and have always been a member of either a fundamental Baptist or Southern Baptist fellowship.

So again, why is this important to you?


God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

No. Do you reject the doctrine of original sin?

Define Original Sin.

Then I will tell you if I reject your understanding of it or agree with it.

God bless.

 

[BobRyan]

Address the responses to this argument already given, Bob. .

I already did -- I point out that on the same topic - the point remains... your efforts to spin it away from that topic failed.

(though you would help your own case by not flooding the thread with dozens of posts to the same person trying find a response to one post)

Want to see that again?

======================

1. I have never said God doesn't destroy the wicked, I have simply kept a Biblical usage for the word translated destroy

IN Matt 10:28 the text does not say "destroy" means to keep alive. Rather it presents a progression from merely "kill" to "destroy". A body may be killed but not destroyed. But a body cannot be destroyed without killing it also. It is a progression of concept. Obviously.

Matthew 10:28
King James Version

28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.


Rev 20:9 “Fire DEVOURED the wicked”
9 And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them.

Rev 11:18 “Destroy those who Destroy the earth”

2Thess 1:9 The wicked pay the “penalty of eternal Destruction”

Ps 21:8-10 “devoured” – “Destroyed”

"Destroy" by "reducing them to ashes..

=====================
The idea that "destroy" means - "gets eternal life and exists forever" is not once a claim in scripture.

Your argument above is for the wicked having both immortal bodies and immortal souls that even God himself is not able to destroy as in "kill". That is quite a stretch!! It is sticking a big "NOT!" in front of Christ's statement rather than allowing the "progression of concept" Christ presents where he goes BEYOND kill to outright destroy.

To kill a body and go beyond that to also DESTROY the body is not even remotely "so of course would not kill the body". That statement of Christ has not logical way to spin back around on itself the way you suggest.

=================

No wonder the "final end of the wicked" is expressed this way in scripture..

Destruction: Matt 10:28
Which is what we find in Luke 17 regarding Sodom
Luke 17:29
but on the day that Lot went out from Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. (destroy - Apollumi )

Which is why it is so instructive to see in 2 Peter 2 "destroyed by reducing them to ashes" that we see in 2 Peter 2

2 Peter 2:6
6 and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes,


"cease to be" - Satan - the covering cherub... reduced to ashes as well.

Ezek 28: 14
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 You were blameless in your ways
From the day you were created
Until unrighteousness was found in you.
16 By the abundance of your trade
You were internally filled with violence,
And you sinned;
Therefore I have cast you as profane
From the mountain of God.
And I have destroyed you, you covering cherub,
From the midst of the stones of fire.
17 Your heart was haughty because of your beauty;
You corrupted your wisdom by reason of your splendor.
I threw you to the ground;
I put you before kings,
That they may see you.
18 By the multitude of your wrongdoings,
In the unrighteousness of your trade
You profaned your sanctuaries.
Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you;
It has consumed you,
And I have turned you to ashes on the earth
In the eyes of all who see you.
19 All who know you among the peoples
Are appalled at you;
You have become terrified
And you will cease to be forever.”’”

The wicked ... consumed/devoured... Rev 20
7 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. 9 And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them.

 

[P1LGR1M]

Thanks for sharing your presuppositions. Noted on my iPad.

Thanks for sharing your unwillingness to be honest about what was said.

No presupposition, and passages that are not really that hard to interpret.

God bless.