Why hasn't Christian universalism ever gone away?

[P1LGR1M]

Your biblical inerrantism, along with various other assumptions, is noted. Again, I disagree with a bunch of it. I definitely disagree with your certainty regarding ECT. Where should we go from here?

Like I said, for you—probably Facebook.

I'm really not interested in discussing your opinions with you.

If you would like to address the Scripture and points, fine, but as long as you are only interested in opinions, what I have said remains: you will never settle anything with your irreverent view of Scripture.

God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

If one accepts that God will punish people eternally in hell, passages are interpreted one way; if it is believed God will eventually annihilate the wicked, passages are interpreted another way; and if one holds that all will eventually be saved, there is yet a third possibility.

And all three positions are not correct. Only one can be correct.

Christianity has many theological interpretations/denominational doctrines there is no consensus on any given doctrine and this has been the case since the beginning.

More falsehood: that it is okay for Christians to have very opposing doctrines.


1 Corinthians 1:10-11
King James Version

10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.


Jesus Christ, Himself dismissed annihilation:


Matthew 22:23-24
King James Version

23 The same day came to him the Sadducees, which say that there is no resurrection, and asked him,

24 Saying, Master, Moses said, If a man die, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.


Matthew 22:28-29
King James Version

28 Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her.

29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.


It would seem there would be a consensus among Christians that Annihilation is a doctrinew that has already been dismissed as valid by Jesus Christ and later by Paul in his appeal to Pharisees:


Acts 23:6-8
King James Version

6 But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question.

7 And when he had so said, there arose a dissension between the Pharisees and the Sadducees: and the multitude was divided.

8 For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, neither angel, nor spirit: but the Pharisees confess both.


And it has been contended by those who view Christ's position to be everlasting punishment with those who teach universal salvation and what we see is a number of out-of-context proof texts that have been addressed (in detailed fashion) yet there is no response to the address of the improper use of these texts.

So far, Isaiah 45 is the only one that has been given any response at all in a manner that would qualify as doctrinal debate (on the matter of "forced worship").

Christianity has many theological interpretations/denominational doctrines there is no consensus on any given doctrine and this has been the case since the beginning.

In your encouragement of at least one annihilationist in these threads you violate a very basic principle of Christian Doctrine. You are encouraging people that they can believe whatever it is they want to believe.

There is a consensus on all Major Doctrine among Christians, beginning with Who's Name we are baptized for in Paul's rebuke above.


God bless.

 

[public hermit]

: you will never settle anything with your irreverent view of Scripture

Do your best not to treat the scriptures as an idol. You don’t know the limits to God's mercy if there be any, but the judgment we give, by that we will be judged.

Is it any wonder that the group that received the lion's share of condemnation from Jesus were religious folk who thought they knew God and God's will, but whose lack of love and grace revealed the truth?

 

[P1LGR1M]

1.In regards to kolasis, nobody is saying it doesn’t mean punishment, only that its purpose is remedial and not retributive.

It is Judicial. It has nothing to do with God being a "mean, angry God" getting back at those who did not obey Him.

2.You keep saying ‘aionios’ always means eternal. You really need to stop saying that because it simply is not true. Marvin Vincent (who is NOT a universalist), author of the very respected, Vincent’s Word Studies in the New Testament, disagrees with you when he writes, “The adjective aionios in like manner [to aion] carries the idea of time. Neither the noun [aion] nor the adjective [aionios], in themselves, carry the sense of endless or everlasting…Aionios means enduring through or pertaining to a period of time. Both the noun and the adjective are applied to limited periods.” (Vincent, Marvin, Vincent’s Word Studies in the New Testament, Vol IV, p. 59)

The context defines the duration, and there are numerous contexts that make it clear the punishment is everlasting.

Eternal and everlasting are used interchangeably in translations based on, in my opinion, the quality of the translator. "Eternal" can be used when the context is eternal. In regards to ETernal Life," there is indeed an eternal context because the Life we receive is in fact Eternal because we receive the Life of God Himself—Who is Eternal.

Eternal Life is also everlasting life. The dead will live everlasting but they do not have Eternal Life because they are not in Christ.


Matthew 25:46
King James Version

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


It is my opinion that this could read "eternal punishment" because Hell, the Lake of Fire—is outside of this universe, just as Heaven is. The "Eternal" refers to God's Realm and that which is part of a spiritual world we do not really understand at this time. This universe passes away and the Lake of Fire is still in existence. In Heaven? Not really possible since death (which is separation) will not exist in the Eternal State.

We also see an everlasting duration of Everlasting Punishment based on the wording of several passages teaching us about the fate of the lost:


Revelation 20:10
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


Day and night forever and ever" doesn't leave a lot of room for "an age" of puishment.


Jude
King James Version

4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.


You teach that men that deny the only Lord God and Jesus Christ will simply get a spanking and then they will go into the Eternal State and be part of the One Fold.


7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.


The imagery here is these people are an example of those who are suffering (not will suffer, not have suffered) the vengeance of eternal fire, meaning—the judgment of the Eternal God.

There is a reason why most translations have eternal.


12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;


You teach that the Lord was wrong when He said "Except a man be born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God.

They are "twice dead" because they are destined to suffer the Second Death, the second separation from God.


13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.


You can't reasonably conclude, after reading all of the passages teaching about the destination of the Lost—that their reservation is just for an "age."

And when the scholars that have translated this verse as the blackness of darkness is reserved forever there seems to be a consensus as to the context and meaning.

And just as in every teaching concerning Eternal Punishment, thses are contrasted with those who will not go into Everlasting Punishment:


20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,

21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.


It matters whether people believe in Jesus Christ. It matters that people obey the Gospel.

In this life.


Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

In fact, Vincent addresses Matt. 25:46 specifically and again disagrees with you when he writes, “Kolasis aionios rendered everlasting punishment (Matt. xxv. 46) is the punishment peculiar to an aeon other than that which Christ is speaking.” (ibid., p. 60).

And that doesn't conflict with Eternal Punishment, because when the Goats are judged at Christ's Return they go into Hades.

And that will be for an Age, the Millennial Kingdom.

And when that Age ends they go into the Lake of Fire.

It is still everlasting punishment.

There was no succor for the Rich Man in Hades.

3. Regarding the fact that your Greek scholars translated the word ‘aionios’ as ‘eternal’ and not ‘age’ doesn’t prove anything. Young’s Literal Translation translates ‘aionios’ in Matt. 25:46 with that “silly” expression, ‘age-during’. Who is right? This just proves my point that interpretation is “profoundly” influenced by one’s presuppositions. As Klein, Hubbard, and Blomberg (not universalists) note, “No one comes to the task of understanding as an objective observer. All interpreters bring their own presuppositions and agendas, and these affect the ways they understand as well as the conclusions they draw.” (William Klein, Robert Hubbard, Craig Blomberg, Introduction to Biblical Interpretation, p. 8, emphasis mine). Kaiser and Silva (also not universalists) echo this same sentiment when they wrote, “Whether we mean to or not, and whether we like it or not, all of us read the text as interpreted by our theological presuppositions.” (Walter Kaiser and Moises Silva, Introduction to Biblical Hermeneutics, p. 306, emphasis mine)

And only one group is correct in their interpretation.

Eternal Punishment and universal Salvation cannot both be true.

The fact that most Greek Scholars come to the same conclusion may not "prove" anything, but it should, at the very least—get your attention. And cause you to question coming to an out of context conclusion.

Now, I know what you’re thinking, “But I don’t read the bible with any presuppositions.” If so, you’re deceiving yourself.

If I read the Bible with presuppositions would I have taken on a view that men were not born again prior to Pentecost?

Would I view Martin Luther as lacking in his understanding of Justification, as well as most people today?

You are assuming that it is up to the Bible Student to understand Scripture on thier own, and ignores that it is the Comforter that teaches us Spiritual Truth.

Sure, babes "read with presuppositions," this is natural. They follow the teaching of their spiritual leaders.

Until they begin to mature and allow God to teach them.

But what is obvious is that despite the fact you say this, you don't seem to take your own teaching seriously. If you are reading the Bible with presuppositions, you admit what people have been telling you all along: you are simply proof-texting what you want to believe.


Continue...

 

[Rajni]

Do your best not to treat the scriptures as an idol. You don’t know the limits to God's mercy if there be any, but the judgment we give, by that we will be judged.

Is it any wonder that the group that received the lion's share of condemnation from Jesus were religious folk who thought they knew God and God's will, but whose lack of love and grace revealed the truth?

If anything, I think the Bible is similar to a Rorschach Test, or even a mirror.

What is seen therein has more to do with what's already knocking around inside our heads and hearts than what's on the pages themselves.

And maybe that's by design. It's a diagnostic tool more than anything. There's a saying: “I have read many books, but the Bible reads me.” (Thomas Merton). But then, the same could be said for how we perceive anything and everything. We don't perceive things as they are, but rather as we are.

 

[P1LGR1M]

As Kaiser and Silva wrote, “But we fool ourselves if we think we can approach the text of Scripture with unprejudiced minds.” (Ibid., p. 283). Klein, Hubbard, and Blomberg agree, “But anyone who says that he or she has discarded all presuppositions and will only study the text objectively and inductively is either deceived or naïve.” (William Klein, Robert Hubbard, Craig Blomberg, Introduction to Biblical Interpretation, p. 87)

Oh, ye of little faith.

The Bible Student is not left to their own by God.

Every mind is prejudiced when they are saved, and this is just one of the issues God deals with in our lives as He leads and guides us into all truth.

You have divorced God from a proper understanding of Scripture.

4. We all come to scripture with presuppositions, myself included, and therefore, the best thing to do is recognize this fact rather than pretending it doesn’t exist (Walter Kaiser and Moises Silva, Introduction to Biblical Hermeneutics, p. 306). So please, enough with the childish accusations that everyone who disagrees with you isn’t interpreting scripture correctly or "taking it out of context".

It hasn't been childish accusations, it has been direct responses to your teachings that show you have taught error.

Such as God will not force worship. You cannot see that He does indeed force worship because you rely on your limited understanding of worship. It is a syllogistic approach used by all false teachers.

5. We come to the text of Scripture with two very different presuppositions. You assert that God will only be able to save a very small fraction of those that Satan destroyed. I start with the understanding that God will eventually save all that Satan destroyed.

Again, syllogism:

Major premise: Satan destroyed the lost.

Minor premise: God is more powerful than Satan.

Conclusion: if you believe men will be lost you believe that Satan is more powerful than God.


Satan had no interaction with Adam, and Adam is charged with willful sin. Eve was deceived, but Adam has no such excuse.

Men do not need Satan (who is not an omniscient being) to sin, nor will men stand before God with Satan at their side for him to partake of their judgment, and give an account of his culpability in their judgment.

Satan did not "destroy" mankind, mankind destroyed mankind, and God has given mankind every opportunity to escape judgment.

And it is mankind, and mankind alone—individually—who will give an account for their words and deeds.

Those are two very different starting points which means there are many passages we will never agree on.

If you would but acknowledge the attempts to show the error seen by the opposing view you might be able to dismiss the proof texts you support your view with.

You are not excused from being honest in your studies. You are not excused from being reasonable in regards to points made that you completely ignore. When you offer proof texts and someone shows why they are taken out of context you should be mature enough to acknowledge error.

But I’m comfortable with my presupposition since it teaches that Christ is stronger than Satan

In other words, "I am comfortable proof texting what I want to believe."


Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

He will be able to save as many as Adam destroyed.

Adam isn't responsible for our sin either, he is responsible for our separation from God.

We won't have Adam at our judgment either, we will be judged according to our own sin:


Romans 5:14
King James Version

14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.


Romans 2:13-16
King James Version

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.


Even Gentiles who did not have the Law had the opportunity to obey God's will as written on their hearts, and by this, they were justified or unjust.

"The devil made me do it" is not going to be a defense that will be taken up by anyone that stands before God, because Satan's judgment, and Adam's judgment—will be irrelevant to theirs.

Contrast this with your view that Christ is weaker than Satan since He cannot save as many as Adam destroyed.

It's a false charge: I've read enough of this member's posts to know he doesn't view "Christ is weaker than Satan."

And that is how your belief system stands: on false pretenses.

He makes a very valid point: First Century Greek-speaking people would have a better idea of how to interpret the Greek Language.

Nowhere has he said "Christ is weaker than Satan." That arises out of your personal view that if people think God can't save the lost through Christ they must assuredly believe Christ is weaker than Satan. That premise is false when directed at an antagonist and it is false in light of the teaching of Scripture.

At no time did the Sovereignty of God lapse over all of His Creation, whether that involves this creation or those that came before.

Satan's judgment is already set, and we see that men will face the same judgment:


Matthew 25:41
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:


Matthew 8:29
And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?


Revelation 20:10
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


The Doctrine of Hell doesn't stand on just the translation of one word, it relies on the Whole of Scripture's teaching.

And it is clear that Christ and the Apostles taught that the Lost will be eternally separated from God in everlasting punishment, torment, and separation.


God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

Scripture has very little to do with one’s commitment to the Lord or reverence for His word and everything to do with the theological presuppositions or model one holds to

It doesn't?

It seems to be pretty important to Jesus Christ:


Matthew 22:29
King James Version

29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.


Seems to be a link between Scripture and the power of God by the Lord here, and this in regards to annihilation. Yet you condone the right of people to hold to false doctrine despite the Lord's teaching.


Daniel 10:21
King James Version

21 But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.


Seems pretty important to Angels in the Old Testament.


Matthew 21:42
Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?


Seems to be pretty important to Christ in regards to that which was foretold of Him.

We see that again here:


Luke 24:25-27
King James Version

25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:

26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?

27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

Scripture has very little to do with one’s commitment to the Lord or reverence for His word and everything to do with the theological presuppositions or model one holds to

So man determines what Scripture means.

This is not the view of Christ, Angels, or the Apostles:


2 Peter 3:16
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.


It seems that Scripture itself places an extreme importance on understanding Scripture properly.

Those who do not wrest the scriptures.


God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

Jesus was not a liar and I agree: don't fear God because God is love. Finally, we agree on something. Nay, two somethings!

Don't fear God because God is love? And this is in Scripture—where?


Luke 12:5
But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.


God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

You haven't understood what I meant at all but that's okay.

I have understood everything you have said, even the "creepy" comment, lol.

You attack on a personal basis because you are utterly unable to address the responses to your philosophy.

Go back and address my responses to your proof texts. Will you?

Of course not. You will continue to reiterate the same tired arguments that have already been addressed.


God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

The idea that "destroy" means - "gets eternal life and exists forever" is not once a claim in scripture.

Nor is ever introduced as a concept by myself, and you know that.

Bob, you have already admitted not being able to understand the concept of those who are dead being "alive" without having Eternal Life, so why do you do this to yourself?

Why don't you explain why it is that your teaching trumps the teaching of Christ, Who makes it clear that those who believe in annihilation err—and know not the Scriptures?


Matthew 22:29
Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.


Even Paul points out the futility in embracing this doctrine of cults:


Acts 23:6-8
King James Version

6 But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question.

7 And when he had so said, there arose a dissension between the Pharisees and the Sadducees: and the multitude was divided.

8 For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, neither angel, nor spirit: but the Pharisees confess both.


And Paul makes it clear that the resurrection of the dead will be both just and unjust:


Acts 24:15
And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.


The "Scripture" Christ speaks of is the Old Testament, that shows that the annihilationist view should have been known to be false doctrine to those in Christ's Day.

Here is an example:


Daniel 12:1-2
King James Version

1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.


If they wink out of existence then again, we have Bob right—and Scripture wrong.

You, and universal salvation teachers teach that the fire is quenched, the shame and everlasting contempt ceases, and that Satan and his angels, and the men that are cast into the Lake of Fire are not in torment day and night forever and ever as Scripture teaches.

One only receives eternal life by being baptized into Christ:


John 6:53
Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.


And the simple fact is this: no man had eternal life until God sent His Son into the world to die on a Cross, be raised from the dead, return to Heaven, send the Comforter, and begin baptizing men into Himself:


Matthew 3:11-12
King James Version

11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.


If one is baptized with the Holy Ghost by The Baptizer Jesus Christ they receive eternal life.

The baptism that awaits those who are not baptized into Christ is one of judgment, and this is everlasting as defined by the very words of John: he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

Only those who are in Christ have eternal life. It's not a hard concept to understand. Nor is it difficult to understand that one can be destroyed without ceasing to exist, as has been shown to you in the Lost Sheep of Israel:


Matthew 15:24
But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.


Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

Your argument above is for the wicked having both immortal bodies and immortal souls that even God himself is not able to destroy as in "kill".

Sorry, but you have several false premises that have to be dealt with:

1. I have never said God doesn't destroy the wicked, I have simply kept a Biblical usage for the word translated destroy and shown its use regarding those who were still "living" in the sense that they had physical life (Matthew 10:6 and Matthew 15:24);

2. You are at a disadvantage because you have, like most cults do, embraced a trichotomy of man that is not taught in Scripture, rather than the dichotomy that is clearly presented in man's creation. He was given a body and a spirit and became a soul. He did not receive a soul;

3. Even in this post we see that you disregard what Scripture actually says in favor of your imposed definition of Biblical words:

Your argument above is for the wicked having both immortal bodies and immortal souls that even God himself is not able to destroy as in "kill".

If God intended to "kill" those who are cast into Hell it would read "...who hath power to kill both soul and body in Hell," but it doesn't read that way.

Words have meaning, Bob.

And when "everlasting" is used in regards to the punishment and judgment those who are cast into Hell receive it might be a good idea to pay attention to what Scripture is saying.

That is, after all, why God gave us His Word.


Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

That is quite a stretch!! It is sticking a big "NOT!" in front of Christ's statement rather than allowing the "progression of concept" Christ presents where he goes BEYOND kill to outright destroy.

I'm not actually the NOT!head in this discussion.



And I agree, Christ does indeed present where He goes beyond "Kill."

And the Biblical usage for destroy does not mean annihilation.

To kill a body and go beyond that to also DESTROY the body is not even remotely "so of course would not kill the body".

You are forgetting that the "beyond" itself doesn't imply annihilation, it implies ongoing suffering:


Luke 12:4-5
King James Version

4 And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do.

5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.


What is it that will be done "after they are killed?"

Do you really not see that there is more that takes place after the "death?"

And it isn't God "killing" the soul (person) and body, it is God "destroying" both soul and body.

The fear that is meant to be generated here is first, Fear of God. Secondly, it is being cast into Hell.

And the simple conclusion drawn (particularly when taken in light of all teachings of Scripture) is that there is more to fear being done to the soul and body when they are cast into Hell.


Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

That statement of Christ has not logical way to spin back around on itself the way you suggest.

So why do you reject His teaching?

Why do you reject His rejection of annihilation? That is what the Sadducees believed.

No wonder the "final end of the wicked" is expressed this way in scripture..



Destruction: Matt 10:28
Which is what we find in Luke 17 regarding Sodom
Luke 17:29
but on the day that Lot went out from Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. (destroy - Apollumi )

Right, they were destroyed physically that day, and await judgment:


2 Peter 2:5-6
King James Version

5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;


The people who died in the flood are still awaiting eternal judgment, even as the people of Sodom are:


Matthew 10:15
Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.


Your point is dismissed by the teaching of Christ.

You are the one saying "It will NOT be more tolerable for Sodom because they have been destroyed already."

And your position is false. They still await being judged on that Day.

Yet you reiterate this argument after it has been dismissed numerous times as though it will somehow make logical sense this time.

And will universal salvationists step forward and agree? No, because it doesn't suit their own agendas.


Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

Which is why it is so instructive to see in 2 Peter 2 "destroyed by reducing them to ashes" that we see in 2 Peter 2

Physical destruction, still awaiting Eternal Judgment.

Pretty easy for most Bible Students to see.

2 Peter 2:6
6 and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes,

Physical destruction, still awaiting Eternal Judgment.

Pretty easy for most Bible Students to see.

Let's look at the flood victims:

2 Peter 2:5
King James Version

5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;



Eternal Judgment?

Not if we keep it in context and include all of what Peter is teaching:


2 Peter 2:5-9
King James Version

5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:

8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds

9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:


Peter agrees with Christ, that there is still a day of judgment awaiting the flood victims.

You are the one placing a NOT! in front of their teachings.

Are they killed? Or punished?


Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

"cease to be" - Satan - the covering cherub... reduced to ashes as well.

Ezek 28: 14
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 You were blameless in your ways
From the day you were created
Until unrighteousness was found in you.
16 By the abundance of your trade
You were internally filled with violence,
And you sinned;
Therefore I have cast you as profane
From the mountain of God.
And I have destroyed you, you covering cherub,
From the midst of the stones of fire.
17 Your heart was haughty because of your beauty;
You corrupted your wisdom by reason of your splendor.
I threw you to the ground;
I put you before kings,
That they may see you.
18 By the multitude of your wrongdoings,
In the unrighteousness of your trade
You profaned your sanctuaries.
Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you;
It has consumed you,
And I have turned you to ashes on the earth
In the eyes of all who see you.
19 All who know you among the peoples
Are appalled at you;
You have become terrified
And you will cease to be forever.”’”

So Satan doesn't exist anymore?

Perhaps if you read your proof texts with a little more attention to detail, you would see once again the futility of your position:


Therefore I have cast you as profane
From the mountain of God.
And I have destroyed you, you covering cherub,
From the midst of the stones of fire.


Notice that Satan is in a state of destruction when he is cast from the mountain of God?

He will remain in a state of destruction when he is cast into the Lake of Fire. Just as the Lost of the Lost Sheep of Israel were in a state of destruction when Christ came to minister to them.

So you can either take the position that Satan was destroyed then, which isn't supported by Scripture (seeing that he continues to walk to and fro), or you can take the position this doesn't mean what it says and Satan will be annihilated when cast into the Lake of Fire, or, you can take the Biblical position and understand that when God said He destroyed Satan in his fall that God meant what He said.


Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

The wicked ... consumed/devoured... Rev 20
7 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. 9 And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them.

Again, you try to use a physical context and convince people it is an eternal context.

This is what every cult teaching does, and that has been shown to you over and over.


Revelation 20:7-9
King James Version

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.


Honestly, what part of "the four quarters of the earth" and "the breadth of the earth" do you NOT! understand?

What would be reasonable is for you to, as a sincere Bible Student and Christian—cede the point.

Will you?

We shall see.


Continued...

 

[Hmm]

Go back and address my responses to your proof texts. Will you?

Don't you think it's creepy issuing commands like that? I'll.respond to you if I wish to.

 

[P1LGR1M]

1.I have looked over all of your replies. So far, nothing you have presented refutes my views, and based on most of your replies, it is evident you have a poor understanding of Universalism.

How hard is it to understand Universal Salvation? That all will be saved. That is what Universal Salvation means.

As far as you not seeing anything that refutes your views, I will just present a few, beginning with the teaching that God will not force worship on anyone, but will save all men:

14 This is what the Lord says:

“The [o]products of Egypt and the merchandise of [p]Cush
And the Sabeans, men of stature,
Will come over to you and will be yours;
They will walk behind you, they will come over in chains
And will bow down to you;
They will plead with you:
‘[q]God certainly is [r]with you, and there is no one else,
No other God.’”

Revelation 1:7
Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.


Revelation 6:15-17
King James Version

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Mark 5:6-8
King James Version

6 But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him,

7 And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not.

8 For he said unto him, Come out of the man, thou unclean spirit.

These are examples of "forced worship," the bowing of the knee of unbelievers and demons to the truth of God's Sovereignty.

That you won't recognize it as such is not surprising, seeing that you have already admitted you approach Scripture with a biased view seeking to prooftext your view.

Here is another of your statements:

6. He will give all people a heart to know Him, worship Him and Love Him..willingly Jer 24:7, Jer 31:34, Heb 8:11.

More deceit. Let's see if Jeremiah 24:7 teaches "He will give all people a heart to know Him, worship Him, and love Him...willingly:"


Jeremiah 24:5-7
King James Version

5 Thus saith the Lord, the God of Israel; Like these good figs, so will I acknowledge them that are carried away captive of Judah, whom I have sent out of this place into the land of the Chaldeans for their good.

6 For I will set mine eyes upon them for good, and I will bring them again to this land: and I will build them, and not pull them down; and I will plant them, and not pluck them up.

7 And I will give them an heart to know me, that I am the Lord: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God: for they shall return unto me with their whole heart.


Again, more deceit. A proof text that is specific to the captives of Judah is used to teach the false doctrine of universal salvation.

Let's see what happens to the other group:


Jeremiah 24:8-10
King James Version

8 And as the evil figs, which cannot be eaten, they are so evil; surely thus saith the Lord, So will I give Zedekiah the king of Judah, and his princes, and the residue of Jerusalem, that remain in this land, and them that dwell in the land of Egypt:

9 And I will deliver them to be removed into all the kingdoms of the earth for their hurt, to be a reproach and a proverb, a taunt and a curse, in all places whither I shall drive them.

10 And I will send the sword, the famine, and the pestilence, among them, till they be consumed from off the land that I gave unto them and to their fathers.


Two groups taught in Scripture: those who will be saved and those who will receive God's judgment.

Your proof text is refuted without controversy.

Go ahead, publicly declare that your prooftext isn't out of context, and does teach "He will give all people a heart to know Him, worship Him and Love Him..willingly Jer 24:7."

I don't know how you are going to do that and be at peace with yourself.

These are just two of the issues raised and points refuted using your prooftexts. And only Isaiah 45 has been addressed. You can't show that you aren't using Scripture out of context and the only thing that remains to be seen in this discussion is whether you are doing it intentionally or not. I would like to hope that wasn't the case.


Continued...