Why hasn't Christian universalism ever gone away?

[P1LGR1M]

9. When all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him, who put all things under His feet. God will fill all things in the universe 1 Cor 15:28, and the entire universe will know God and will bow in allegiance. God will be all in all. The Greek word "subject" is the same used for Christ. Can it be questioned that Christ's submission is not freely given?

This poster has ignored a response to this already. Again it is presented as though it negates the teachings of Christ and the Apostles.

This...

"Can it be questioned that Christ's submission is not freely given?"

...is a false argument. No one has questioned whether Christ will "submit" to God. It is pretty much a no-brainer that God will submit to Himself, for Christ is God manifest in the flesh.

Let's place this verse back into the context Paul wrote it in:


1 Corinthians 15:16-23
King James Version

16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:

17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.


Notice that this speaks about people who specifically have faith in Christ?


18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.


There isn't a reference to all who are dead, but to those that are dead in Christ.


19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.


Imposing a universal application is not something that can be done in this passage, just as in every passage used by universal salvationists.


1 Corinthians 15:24-30
King James Version

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.


Forgotten by the universal salvationist is that "...except a man be born again—he cannot enter the Kingdom of God.

And what is delivered up to God here?

The Kingdom of God.

The universal salvationist would deny (again) Christ's teaching and say men can enter the Kingdom of God apart from Regeneration.

And the enemies of God?


25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.


Delivered up to God? No, put under His feet. Not a picture of "victory" for unbelievers.


27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.


God is excepted, because, well—He is God, after all. And we keep in mind that Paul is teaching about resurrection, and Christ is the firstfruits of the dead.


28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.


Nothing in this states that unbelievers will be saved. Nothing.

And it is no great mystery that the Son of God manifest in flesh will be "subject" to Eternal God. That does not place Him as "less God" than He was prior to the Incarnation. He is "subject" to HIs Eternal nature.


29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

30 And why stand we in jeopardy every hour?


Notice that if Christ is not risen from the dead then "we" stand in jeopardy, in danger...

...of what?

This is not a universal salvation passage, it includes only those that are in Christ, as every other passage in the New Testament teaches.


Continued...

 

[public hermit]

This is why you will never be able to settle the argument: no faith in the Word of God or an understanding that God gave us His Word for the express purpose that we know His will.

Scripture settles every "argument."


God bless.

You're equivocating in your use of "Word of God." Equivocations are fine so long as we're up front about them. Jesus Christ is the Word of God. The scriptures are the authoritative witness to the Word, and so they are also called "word of God," but those two are not the same; they are not even close. One is a witness to Christ; the other is Christ. One died and rose again; the other bears witness to resurrected life in Christ. One is Truth; the other bears witness to that truth. One is perfect; the other bears witness even though it is not perfect. You think you have certainty because you believe the book, but all that has been promised is faith, hope, and love.

Pro tip: Try to avoid denigrating someone's faith and understanding and then saying, "God bless." That's just a bad look.

 

[P1LGR1M]

10. The idea of a forced confession does not square with the meaning of the Greek word Exomologeo. Every use of the word [exomologeo] in the New Testament connotes a voluntary confession. Phil 2:11

Philippians 2
King James Version

11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.


This...

Isaiah 45:14
King James Version

14 Thus saith the Lord, The labour of Egypt, and merchandise of Ethiopia and of the Sabeans, men of stature, shall come over unto thee, and they shall be thine: they shall come after thee; in chains they shall come over, and they shall fall down unto thee, they shall make supplication unto thee, saying, Surely God is in thee; and there is none else, there is no God.


...is forced confession. There is no repentance unto life here.

This...


Matthew 8:29
And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?


...and this...

Luke 8:28
When he saw Jesus, he cried out, and fell down before him, and with a loud voice said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God most high? I beseech thee, torment me not.


...is also forced confession. All will acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord of Lords and King of Kings, but that doesn't extend to all will be saved.

Secondly, universal salvation still ignores what Scripture teaches elsewhere:


Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess G3670 with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.


One is only saved by faith in Christ.

Third, an argument from silence means nothing.


Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

11. Consider too that Paul is quoting from Isaiah 45:23 and there is no hint of forced worship in this passage for a couple of reasons:

The forced worship is written right into Isaiah 45. You aren't going to change that.

In Isa 45:22, God says, “Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth…” which not only proves the worship Paul speaks of is voluntary; it further supports the universalistic interpretation

Obeying God is not a voluntary issue, it is God's command to man.

Universal salvation is actually destroyed by making it voluntary, because if God's command is the Great Suggestion, then it makes the fact that there are two outcomes even more pronounced.

Because you leave out the context the passage is given in you concince yourself and others that your assertions are reasonable, but no one takes seriously ot-of-context proof-texting.

In v. 24, God says, “They will say of me, ‘Only in the Lord are righteousness and strength.’” These are not exactly the words of a defeated enemy being forced to admit allegiance.

No, these are...

Isaiah 45:14-17
King James Version

14 Thus saith the Lord, The labour of Egypt, and merchandise of Ethiopia and of the Sabeans, men of stature, shall come over unto thee, and they shall be thine: they shall come after thee; in chains they shall come over, and they shall fall down unto thee, they shall make supplication unto thee, saying, Surely God is in thee; and there is none else, there is no God.


It's a pretty simple statement to understand.


15 Verily thou art a God that hidest thyself, O God of Israel, the Saviour.

16 They shall be ashamed, and also confounded, all of them: they shall go to confusion together that are makers of idols.

17 But Israel shall be saved in the Lord with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.


Only Israel is in view. You aren't going to change that.

They go into everlasting salvation, and the idolaters go into confusion.

So you want to build a case that the Eternal State will be one of confusion for some people, and that they will be there not having everlasting life?


Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

12. God will transform all of His enemies, Paul is an excellent example. Not by force, but because God is God, and can do anything He desires. Is that difficult to understand? Perhaps Paul can help you understand the amazing God He testified about: "Even though I was formerly a blasphemer, a persecutor, and an arrogant man. But I received mercy because I acted out of ignorance in unbelief".(1 Timothy 1:13)?

And again we see that this is specific to men that believe in Christ:


1 Timothy 1:16
King James Version

16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.


Everlasting life is for those who believe in Jesus Christ, not for the entirety of mankind.

The teaching, "God will transform all of His enemies" is false doctrine.


Philippians 3:17-19
King James Version

17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.

18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:

19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things)


Scripture teaches the enemies of God will go into destruction, universal salvation teaches...

"God will transform all of His enemies."


Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

• Paul acted out of ignorance, he was a blasphemer, a persecutor, and an arrogant man

And his salvation was meant to be an example for others that would believe on Jesus Christ:


1 Timothy 1:16
King James Version

16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.


Universal salvation teaches that men do not have to believe in Christ.


Continued...

 

[Hmm]

Pro tip: Try to avoid denigrating someone's faith and understanding and then saying, "God bless." That's just a bad look.

Absolutely. I would even say creepy.

 

[P1LGR1M]

Paul received mercy

As does every man and woman that turns to faith in Christ.

Not so for His enemies:


John 3:16-18
King James Version

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.


Scripture teaches that those who do not believe in Jesus Christ are condemned already, universal salvation teaches that God made a mistake in His wording in Scripture and that no man, regardless of whether they believe in Jesus Christ—will be condemned.


Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

Paul was transformed

As are all men that believe in Christ:


2 Corinthians 5:14-21
King James Version

14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.


Verse 20, by showing that "the world" has not been reconciled to God, demands that Christ's reconciling of the world is not universal salvation.

Only those that are in Christ are reconciled to God, and Paul beseeches men—to be reconciled.

Christ taught...


John 3:3
King James Version

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.


Universal salvation teaches unregenerate men will enter the Kingdom of God.


Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

• Paul willingly submitted to His creator

And...?

These men diod not willingly place themselves in chains and fall down on their knees and confess the One True God:


Isaiah 45:14
King James Version

14 Thus saith the Lord, The labour of Egypt, and merchandise of Ethiopia and of the Sabeans, men of stature, shall come over unto thee, and they shall be thine: they shall come after thee; in chains they shall come over, and they shall fall down unto thee, they shall make supplication unto thee, saying, Surely God is in thee; and there is none else, there is no God.


Hence the teaching,,,

"God does not force anyone to confess or bow in worship."

...is a false teaching in conflict with the Word of God.


Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

Good news, and more good news:

• God transforms His enemies, and they are redeemed.

And your Scripture for this?

And your "apologetics" for what Scripture actually teaches?

This is false doctrine.


Jude 4
King James Version

4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.


Those who are not known of Christ, know not God and obey not the Gospel will go into everlasting pinishment.


Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

God heals the blind, and the deaf and raises the dead. He transforms His enemies, and the entire universe by His wisdom, by His Sovereign power.

Again, there is no Scripture to support universal salvation and universal salvationists cannot address the Scripture that teaches everlasting punishment.

“Yours, O Lord, is the greatness and the power and the glory and the victory and the majesty, for all that is in the heavens and the earth is Yours; Yours is the kingdom, O Lord, and Yours it is to be exalted as Head over all.”

1 Chronicle 29:11

Doesn't negate...


John 3:3-5
King James Version

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.


Universal salvation is false doctrine in conflict with Scripture.

Only faith in Christ, in this lifetime—will allow wicked men to enter into the Kingdom of God.


God bless.

 

[Der Alte]

Contrary to what UR-ites erroneously proclaim, scripture does NOT say that all mankind will bow "in reverent love for their Maker." etc.
Exomologeō occurs eleven times in the NT. in addition to Phil 2:11. In the other 10 it never means “whole-heartedly… without reservation (no holding back)”etc.
In Philippians 2:11exomologeō is an aorist, active, subjunctive. The subjunctive is the mood of possibility or potentiality. The action may or may not happen. Every knee should bow not “will bow.”

Matthew 3:6 “confessing their sins,” Matthew 11:25 “thank,” Mark 1:5 “confessing their sins,” Luke 10:21 “thank,” Luke 22:6 “promised,” Acts of the apostles 19:18 “confessed their deeds,” Romans 14:11 “confess,” Romans 15:9 “confess Christ,” James 5:16 “confess your faults,” Revelation 3:5 “confess his name”​

…..Scripture says that every knee should bow but only believers will do so freely, willingly in love and faith, the others will be conquered enemies. How will the enemies of Jesus feel?

Matthew 7:21-23
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, *(fn) Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity
…..*(fn)"That day" =the day of judgment.]​

After judgment day and “I never knew you: depart from me,” there are no more chances for reconciliation.
The word of God says every knee should bow. It must be important because it is repeated 3 times.

1. Isaiah 45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
2. Romans 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
3. Philippians 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;​

But the " the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, murderers, sexually immoral, those who practice magic, idolaters, liars" etc.[Rev 21:8] everyone who denied God and Christ all their lives will be forced to their knees, i.e. become Jesus’ footstool, and forced to proclaim that Jesus is Lord.
This is another important point it is recorded 7 times in scripture. The followers of UR ignore these verses.

1. Psalms 110:1 A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
2. Matthew 22:44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
3. Mark 12:36 For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
4. Luke 20:42 And David himself saith in the book of Psalms, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Luke 20:43 Till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
5. Acts of the apostles 2:34-35
34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool..
6. Hebrews 1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
7. Hebrews 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;.
Hebrews 10:13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.​

What does “make your enemies your footstool mean?” Joshua, the OT type of Jesus, shows us in Josh. 10.
Josh 10:5-15 five kings band together to make war against Israel and were defeated.

Joshua 10:17 And it was told Joshua, saying, The five kings are found hid in a cave at Makkedah….
Joshua 10:22-24
22 Then said Joshua, Open the mouth of the cave, and bring out those five kings unto me out of the cave.…
24 And it came to pass, when they brought out those kings unto Joshua, that Joshua called for all the men of Israel, and said unto the captains of the men of war which went with him, Come near, put your feet upon the necks of these kings. And they came near, and put their feet upon the necks of them.
…
Joshua 10:26 And afterward Joshua smote them, and slew them, and hanged them on five trees: and they were hanging upon the trees until the evening.​

The enemies of Joshua were made his footstool, vs. 24, then destroyed. They did not become faithful, obedient members of his army.
The enemies of Jesus become His footstool, as the enemies of Joshua did, and nowhere is it written that those enemies specifically will be reconciled.

 

[Der Alte]

Again, there is no Scripture to support universal salvation and universal salvationists cannot address the Scripture that teaches everlasting punishment.
Doesn't negate...
John 3:3-5
King James Version
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Universal salvation is false doctrine in conflict with Scripture.
Only faith in Christ, in this lifetime—will allow wicked men to enter into the Kingdom of God.
God bless.

You said "Again, there is no Scripture to support universal salvation and universal salvationists cannot address the Scripture that teaches everlasting punishment." Which is so true. If they address it at all they try to say that "aionios" does not mean "eternal" it really means, the silly expression, "age during" and "kolasis" does not mean "punishment" it really means "prune" or "correction," which is an etymological "root" word fallacy.

EOB Matthew:25:46 When he will answer them, saying: ‘Amen, I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 These [ones on the left] will go away into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] punishment, [κόλασις/kolasis] but the righteous into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.”​

Greek has been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church since its inception, 2000 years ago +/-. Note, the native Greek speaking Eastern Orthodox Greek scholars, translators of the EOB, translated “aionios,” in Matt 25:46, as “eternal,” NOT “age.”
Who is better qualified than the team of native Greek speaking scholars, translators of the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible [EOB], quoted above and below, to know the correct translation of the Greek in the N.T.?
Link to EOB online:
The New Testament ( The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
…..The Greek word “kolasis” occurs only twice in the N.T., 1st occurrence Matt 25:46, above, and the 2nd occurrence 1 John 4:18., below.

EOB 1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear is connected with punishment.[κόλασις/kolasis] But the one who fears is not yet perfect in love.​

In the EOB the Greek word “kolasis” is translated “punishment” in both Matt 25:46 and 1 John 4:18. Some mis/uninformed folks claim “kolasis” really means “prune” or “correction.” However, that is an etymological fallacy. According to the EOB Greek scholars “kolasis” means “punishment.”
Note: in 1 John 4:18 there is no correction, the one with “kolasis” is not made perfect. Thus “kolasis” does not/cannot mean “correction.”
…..It is understood that modern Greek differs from koine Greek but I am confident that the Greek speaking EOB scholars, backed up by 2000 years +/- of continuous Greek scholarship, are competent enough to know the correct translation of obsolete words which may have changed in meaning or are no longer in use and to translate them correctly. Just as scholars today know the correct meaning of obsolete words which occur in the KJV.

 

[P1LGR1M]

You're equivocating in your use of "Word of God."

Actually, I made a pointed statement directed at your lack of faith in Scripture and God:

This is why the scriptures can't settle this argument

No equivocation.

Equivocations are fine so long as we're up front about them.

They are?

Again, this is why the Word of God is useless in your hands: you think your opinion about it makes a difference.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God.

Actually, The Son of God is the WORD of God, and Jesus Christ is God the Son, Eternal God and Creator—manifest in flesh.

One has existed in eternity past and One was born of a woman about two thousand years ago.

And my use of the term the Word of God is pretty plain as to what I meant.

The scriptures are the authoritative witness to the Word, and so they are also called "word of God," but those two are not the same; they are not even close.

"Not even close?"

Again, this is why your posting is meaningless: you have no real grasp of the Word of God so you will likely spend most of the time defending yourself instead of the Faith.

The Word of God is the progressively revealed will of God for mankind. Not sure how you feel that it is not "...even close" to the WORD of God.

Secondly, let me explain to you that it is the Word of God that has always saved men, because salvation, particularly Eternal Salvation—has always been achieved by God giving His Word to men.

It is the Word of God by which men are, in this Age—born again.

One is a witness to Christ; the other is Christ.

But they are "not even close."

Right. Gotcha.

One died and rose again; the other bears witness to resurrected life in Christ.

But they are "not even close."

Right. Gotcha.

One is Truth; the other bears witness to that truth.

But both are not truth?

Right. Gotcha.

One is perfect; the other bears witness even though it is not perfect.

Galatians 3:21
King James Version

21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

So what was the problem?

Man.

You think you have certainty because you believe the book, but all that has been promised is faith, hope, and love.

You need to actually read the Bible so you don't publicly display such a terrible ignorance.

Quite a bit more than faith, hope, and love have been promised by God.

And we find these promises in the Word of God, so again—try reading it sometime.

Pro tip:

You are a pro? And you see faith, hope and love as the only promises we have received in the Word of God?

Right. Gotcha.

Try to avoid denigrating someone's faith and understanding and then saying, "God bless."

When someone says...

This is why the scriptures can't settle this argument

...it is not denigrating that person's faith, it is pointing out their utter lack of confidence in the Word of God, as well as their ignorance in regards to Doctrinal Debate.

That's just a bad look.

I'm not here "to look good" to people, I am here to debate the Doctrine of Eternal Damnation.

Read the thread. Familiarize yourself with what God's Word teaches. Look at the beliefs of those here and the Scripture they present to support their views. Look at the responses to those supports.

Then look back at the opinion you presented. See how it fits into a context of the "argument."

If you have something valid to say, say it. But if you are simply interested in what "looks good," or even what "sounds good," well, my guess is you are going to fit right in.

God bless.

 

[public hermit]

Actually, I made a pointed statement directed at your lack of faith in Scripture and God:



No equivocation.




They are?

Again, this is why the Word of God is useless in your hands: you think your opinion about it makes a difference.




Actually, The Son of God is the WORD of God, and Jesus Christ is God the Son, Eternal God and Creator—manifest in flesh.

One has existed in eternity past and One was born of a woman about two thousand years ago.

And my use of the term the Word of God is pretty plain as to what I meant.




"Not even close?"

Again, this is why your posting is meaningless: you have no real grasp of the Word of God so you will likely spend most of the time defending yourself instead of the Faith.

The Word of God is the progressively revealed will of God for mankind. Not sure how you feel that it is not "...even close" to the WORD of God.

Secondly, let me explain to you that it is the Word of God that has always saved men, because salvation, particularly Eternal Salvation—has always been achieved by God giving His Word to men.

It is the Word of God by which men are, in this Age—born again.



But they are "not even close."

Right. Gotcha.



But they are "not even close."

Right. Gotcha.




But both are not truth?

Right. Gotcha.




Galatians 3:21
King James Version

21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

So what was the problem?

Man.




You need to actually read the Bible so you don't publicly display such a terrible ignorance.

Quite a bit more than faith, hope, and love have been promised by God.

And we find these promises in the Word of God, so again—try reading it sometime.




You are a pro? And you see faith, hope and love as the only promises we have received in the Word of God?

Right. Gotcha.



When someone says...



...it is not denigrating that person's faith, it is pointing out their utter lack of confidence in the Word of God, as well as their ignorance in regards to Doctrinal Debate.



I'm not here "to look good" to people, I am here to debate the Doctrine of Eternal Damnation.

Read the thread. Familiarize yourself with what God's Word teaches. Look at the beliefs of those here and the Scripture they present to support their views. Look at the responses to those supports.

Then look back at the opinion you presented. See how it fits into a context of the "argument."

If you have something valid to say, say it. But if you are simply interested in what "looks good," or even what "sounds good," well, my guess is you are going to fit right in.

God bless.

So, I take it you disagree. Noted.

 

[P1LGR1M]

You said "Again, there is no Scripture to support universal salvation and universal salvationists cannot address the Scripture that teaches everlasting punishment." Which is so true. If they address it at all they try to say that "aionios" does not mean "eternal" it really means, the silly expression, "age during" and "kolasis" does not mean "punishment" it really means "prune" or "correction," which is an etymological "root" word fallacy.

EOB Matthew:25:46 When he will answer them, saying: ‘Amen, I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 These [ones on the left] will go away into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] punishment, [κόλασις/kolasis] but the righteous into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.”​

Greek has been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church since its inception, 2000 years ago +/-. Note, the native Greek speaking Eastern Orthodox Greek scholars, translators of the EOB, translated “aionios,” in Matt 25:46, as “eternal,” NOT “age.”
Who is better qualified than the team of native Greek speaking scholars, translators of the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible [EOB], quoted above and below, to know the correct translation of the Greek in the N.T.?
Link to EOB online:
The New Testament ( The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
…..The Greek word “kolasis” occurs only twice in the N.T., 1st occurrence Matt 25:46, above, and the 2nd occurrence 1 John 4:18., below.

EOB 1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear is connected with punishment.[κόλασις/kolasis] But the one who fears is not yet perfect in love.​

In the EOB the Greek word “kolasis” is translated “punishment” in both Matt 25:46 and 1 John 4:18. Some mis/uninformed folks claim “kolasis” really means “prune” or “correction.” However, that is an etymological fallacy. According to the EOB Greek scholars “kolasis” means “punishment.”
Note: in 1 John 4:18 there is no correction, the one with “kolasis” is not made perfect. Thus “kolasis” does not/cannot mean “correction.”
…..It is understood that modern Greek differs from koine Greek but I am confident that the Greek speaking EOB scholars, backed up by 2000 years +/- of continuous Greek scholarship, are competent enough to know the correct translation of obsolete words which may have changed in meaning or are no longer in use and to translate them correctly. Just as scholars today know the correct meaning of obsolete words which occur in the KJV.

Agreed.

But you are expecting people who are trying to "interpret" Scripture with their emotions. They "feel" that because God loves the world this cancels out His judgment against sin. They "feel," because they wouldn't "cast people into an eternity of separation and torment" that God would not either.

They create a god of their own making. They ignore what the Word of God has given us concerning the character of God, and that He is Holy, Holy, Holy.

Not even man lets the wickedness of wicked men go unpunished, but in their doctrine they elevate themselves above God, condemning Him because He will execute judgment and wrath upon every person that sins, who do not come into obedience to His will:

Romans 2:3-9
King James Version

3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?

4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;


Scripture speaks for itself and has been given to men for the express purpose that man know His will. The sincere hearer/reader will understand that while God wants all men to be saved, not all men will be saved.

God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

So, I take it you disagree. Noted.

You are a very observant fellow.

God bless.

 

[public hermit]

You are a very observant fellow.

God bless.

I have my moments.

 

[P1LGR1M]

Absolutely. I would even say creepy.

So you agree with this...

This is why the scriptures can't settle this argument

...?

God bless.