Why hasn't Christian universalism ever gone away?

[Servus]

His word is clear ... not all will accept Him.

Need to look at what the teachings are using the bible as a whole .... not just pick out a verse or two and apply them to the whole of scripture.

In both of Paul’s citations of Isaiah 45:23, he is echoing the truth that there will come a time when “every knee shall bow and every tongue confess” to the glory of God. In the Philippians citation, Paul is declaring the divinity of Jesus when he says that every knee will bow and every tongue will confess Him as Lord. This is a clear indication of what will occur at the Second Coming of Christ.

These are professed christians

Matthew 7:21-23

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

From what I've seen, universalists do look at the Bible as a whole, and have a lot more than a couple of verses to back up their view. As a matter of fact, they seem to have more overall scripture to offer than those who denigrate them.

As for Matthew 7:21-23, Sabbatarians apply that to everyone who isn't a Sabbatarian. Which is practically everyone.

 

[Der Alte]

From what I've seen, universalists do look at the Bible as a whole, and have a lot more than a couple of verses to back up their view. As a matter of fact, they seem to have more overall scripture to offer than those who denigrate them.
As for Matthew 7:21-23, Sabbatarians apply that to everyone who isn't a Sabbatarian. Which is practically everyone.

How about these two verses?

EOB Matthew:25:46 When he will answer them, saying: ‘Amen, I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 These [ones on the left] will go away into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] punishment, [κόλασις/kolasis] but the righteous into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.”​

Greek has been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church since its inception, 2000 years ago +/-. Note, the native Greek speaking Eastern Orthodox Greek scholars, translators of the EOB, translated “aionios,” in Matt 25:46, as “eternal,” NOT “age.”
Who is better qualified than the team of native Greek speaking scholars, translators of the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible [EOB], quoted above and below, to know the correct translation of the Greek in the N.T.?
Link to EOB online:
The New Testament ( The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
…..The Greek word “kolasis” occurs only twice in the N.T., 1st occurrence Matt 25:46, above, and the 2nd occurrence 1 John 4:18., below.

EOB 1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear is connected with punishment.[κόλασις/kolasis] But the one who fears is not yet perfect in love.​

In the EOB the Greek word “kolasis” is translated “punishment” in both Matt 25:46 and 1 John 4:18. Some mis/uninformed folks claim “kolasis” really means “prune” or “correction.” However, that is an etymological fallacy. According to the EOB Greek scholars “kolasis” means “punishment.”
Note: in 1 John 4:18 there is no correction, the one with “kolasis” is not made perfect. Thus “kolasis” does not/cannot mean “correction.”
…..It is understood that modern Greek differs from koine Greek but I am confident that the Greek speaking EOB scholars, backed up by 2000 years +/- of Greek scholarship, are competent enough to know the correct translation of obsolete words which may have changed in meaning or are no longer in use and to translate them correctly. Just as scholars today know the meaning of obsolete words which occur in the KJV and to translate them correctly.

 

[Servus]

Okay, sorry I never watch YouTube videos unless the poster summarises it so I assumed it was just another ad hom.

Probably whoever posted the video intended it as ad hom.

 

[Servus]

How about these two verses?

EOB Matthew:25:46 When he will answer them, saying: ‘Amen, I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 These [ones on the left] will go away into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] punishment, [κόλασις/kolasis] but the righteous into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.”​

Greek has been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church since its inception, 2000 years ago +/-. Note, the native Greek speaking Eastern Orthodox Greek scholars, translators of the EOB, translated “aionios,” in Matt 25:46, as “eternal,” NOT “age.”
Who is better qualified than the team of native Greek speaking scholars, translators of the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible [EOB], quoted above and below, to know the correct translation of the Greek in the N.T.?
Link to EOB online:
The New Testament ( The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
…..The Greek word “kolasis” occurs only twice in the N.T., 1st occurrence Matt 25:46, above, and the 2nd occurrence 1 John 4:18., below.

EOB 1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear is connected with punishment.[κόλασις/kolasis] But the one who fears is not yet perfect in love.​

In the EOB the Greek word “kolasis” is translated “punishment” in both Matt 25:46 and 1 John 4:18. Some mis/uninformed folks claim “kolasis” really means “prune” or “correction.” However, that is an etymological fallacy. According to the EOB Greek scholars “kolasis” means “punishment.”
Note: in 1 John 4:18 there is no correction, the one with “kolasis” is not made perfect. Thus “kolasis” does not/cannot mean “correction.”
…..It is understood that modern Greek differs from koine Greek but I am confident that the Greek speaking EOB scholars, backed up by 2000 years +/- of Greek scholarship, are competent enough to know the correct translation of obsolete words which may have changed in meaning or are no longer in use and to translate them correctly. Just as scholars today know the meaning of obsolete words which occur in the KJV and to translate them correctly.

This is yet another post that you've re-posed innumerable times, which I've already addressed. Are you hoping if you keep posting the same thing over and over to me, that eventually you'll get a different result?

 

[Servus]

Do you believe that sinners who keep on sinning at some point "at the name of Jesus" will suddenly drop to their knees and "confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father and they will instantly be saved?

Some think it will be instantaneous like Paul's instant conversion. Others think it will take a period of time. Perhaps as long as an age.

In the phrases "every knee should bow" and "every tongue should confess" the verbs "should bow' and "should confess" are in the subjunctive mood. It may or may not happen. It ain't a done deal.
The subjunctive mood primarily refers to HYPOTHETICAL actions in the PRESENT or FUTURE, i.e., in the same time covered by the PRIMARY tenses of verbs.
The Subjunctive Mood – Ancient Greek for Everyone

According to the lexicon it's EVERY KNEE WILL BOW. As several translations word it.

Philippians 2:10 Lexicon: so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

 

[Der Alte]

Some think it will be instantaneous like Paul's instant conversion. Others think it will take a period of time. Perhaps as long as an age.
According to the lexicon it's EVERY KNEE WILL BOW. As several translations word it.
Philippians 2:10 Lexicon: so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

According to nine 9 commentaries "every knee should bow."
Philippians 2:10 Commentaries: so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, (biblehub.com)

 

[Der Alte]

This is yet another post that you've re-posed innumerable times, which I've already addressed. Are you hoping if you keep posting the same thing over and over to me, that eventually you'll get a different result?

Nonsense! I am not aware of any post where you have addressed or refuted my Matt 25:44 and 1 John 4:18 post. I will do a search for such a post.

 

[Der Alte]

Duplicate deleted

 

[Servus]

Nonsense! I am not aware of any post where you have addressed or refuted my Matt 25:44 and 1 John 4:18 post. I will do a search for such a post.

I've gone though it one or two times out of the hundred plus times you've re-posted that post, so you're going to be looking for a needle in a haystack of re-posted posts.

 

[Der Alte]

This is yet another post that you've re-posed innumerable times, which I've already addressed. Are you hoping if you keep posting the same thing over and over to me, that eventually you'll get a different result?

I did find a post where you gave your unsupported opinion that Matt 25:31-46 should be understood as a parable and not to be taken literally.
An unsupported opinion does NOT refute anything particularly when the native Greek speaking scholars who translated the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible considered it literal. And they have 22 centuries of Greek scholarship behind them.

EOB Matthew:25:46 When he will answer them, saying: ‘Amen, I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 These [ones on the left] will go away into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] punishment, [κόλασις/kolasis] but the righteous into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.”​

Greek has been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church since its inception, 2000 years ago +/-. Note, the native Greek speaking Eastern Orthodox Greek scholars, translators of the EOB, translated “aionios,” in Matt 25:46, as “eternal,” NOT “age.”
Who is better qualified than the team of native Greek speaking scholars, translators of the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible [EOB], quoted above and below, to know the correct translation of the Greek in the N.T.?
Link to EOB online:
The New Testament ( The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
…..The Greek word “kolasis” occurs only twice in the N.T., 1st occurrence Matt 25:46, above, and the 2nd occurrence 1 John 4:18., below.

EOB 1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear is connected with punishment.[κόλασις/kolasis] But the one who fears is not yet perfect in love.​

In the EOB the Greek word “kolasis” is translated “punishment” in both Matt 25:46 and 1 John 4:18. Some mis/uninformed folks claim “kolasis” really means “prune” or “correction.” However, that is an etymological fallacy. According to the EOB Greek scholars “kolasis” means “punishment.”
Note: in 1 John 4:18 there is no correction, the one with “kolasis” is not made perfect. Thus “kolasis” does not/cannot mean “correction.”
…..It is understood that modern Greek differs from koine Greek but I am confident that the Greek speaking EOB scholars, backed up by 2000 years +/- of Greek scholarship, are competent enough to know the correct translation of obsolete words which may have changed in meaning or are no longer in use and to translate them correctly. Just as scholars today know the meaning of obsolete words which occur in the KJV and to translate them correctly.

 

[Servus]

According to nine 9 commentaries "every knee should bow."
Philippians 2:10 Commentaries: so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, (biblehub.com)

Even though the link itself says "EVERY KNEE WILL BOW".

 

[Servus]

I did find a post where you gave your unsupported opinion that Matt 25:31-46 should be understood as a parable and not to be taken literally.
An unsupported opinion does NOT refute anything particularly when the native Greek speaking scholars who translated the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible considered it literal. And they have 22 centuries of Greek scholarship behind them.

EOB Matthew:25:46 When he will answer them, saying: ‘Amen, I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 These [ones on the left] will go away into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] punishment, [κόλασις/kolasis] but the righteous into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.”​

Greek has been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church since its inception, 2000 years ago +/-. Note, the native Greek speaking Eastern Orthodox Greek scholars, translators of the EOB, translated “aionios,” in Matt 25:46, as “eternal,” NOT “age.”
Who is better qualified than the team of native Greek speaking scholars, translators of the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible [EOB], quoted above and below, to know the correct translation of the Greek in the N.T.?
Link to EOB online:
The New Testament ( The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
…..The Greek word “kolasis” occurs only twice in the N.T., 1st occurrence Matt 25:46, above, and the 2nd occurrence 1 John 4:18., below.

EOB 1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear is connected with punishment.[κόλασις/kolasis] But the one who fears is not yet perfect in love.​

In the EOB the Greek word “kolasis” is translated “punishment” in both Matt 25:46 and 1 John 4:18. Some mis/uninformed folks claim “kolasis” really means “prune” or “correction.” However, that is an etymological fallacy. According to the EOB Greek scholars “kolasis” means “punishment.”
Note: in 1 John 4:18 there is no correction, the one with “kolasis” is not made perfect. Thus “kolasis” does not/cannot mean “correction.”
…..It is understood that modern Greek differs from koine Greek but I am confident that the Greek speaking EOB scholars, backed up by 2000 years +/- of Greek scholarship, are competent enough to know the correct translation of obsolete words which may have changed in meaning or are no longer in use and to translate them correctly. Just as scholars today know the meaning of obsolete words which occur in the KJV and to translate them correctly.

I'm not going to go over something you've re-posted a hundred times.

 

[Der Alte]

Even though the link itself says "EVERY KNEE WILL BOW".

Philippians 2:10
(10) ιναG2443 CONJ ενG1722 PREP τωG3588 T-DSN ονοματιG3686 N-DSN ιησουG2424 N-GSM πανG3956 A-NSN γονυG1119 N-NSN καμψη[kampse']G2578 V-AAS-3S επουρανιωνG2032 A-GPM καιG2532 CONJ επιγειωνG1919 A-GPN καιG2532 CONJ καταχθονιωνG2709 A-GPM
V-AAS-3S Verb, Aorist, Active, Subjunctive- 3rd person singular
The subjunctive mood of a verb in Koine Greek is the form generally used to express potential or possibility.
Translation
The subjunctive in English is typically translated using the qualifying word "might".
Koine Greek: Verbs - Subjunctive - WikiChristian.

 

[Der Alte]

I'm not going to go over something you've re-posted a hundred times.

You can run but you can't hide.

 

[Servus]

You can run but you can't hide.

I can put you back on ignore at any time.

 

[Servus]

Philippians 2:10
(10) ιναG2443 CONJ ενG1722 PREP τωG3588 T-DSN ονοματιG3686 N-DSN ιησουG2424 N-GSM πανG3956 A-NSN γονυG1119 N-NSN καμψη[kampse']G2578 V-AAS-3S επουρανιωνG2032 A-GPM καιG2532 CONJ επιγειωνG1919 A-GPN καιG2532 CONJ καταχθονιωνG2709 A-GPM
V-AAS-3S Verb, Aorist, Active, Subjunctive- 3rd person singular
The subjunctive mood of a verb in Koine Greek is the form generally used to express potential or possibility.
Translation
The subjunctive in English is typically translated using the qualifying word "might".
Koine Greek: Verbs - Subjunctive - WikiChristian.

I keep hearing how the Bible says what it says and yet here's a complicated formula to go against that.

 

[Der Alte]

I keep hearing how the Bible says what it says and yet here's a complicated formula to go against that.

It is known to scholars as parsing. I listed every Greek word in the vs. and the tense, voice, mood etc. In Philp 2:10 the verb correctly translated "should bow" is Aorist, Active, Subjunctive- 3rd person singular.
Had Paul intended to say "will bow" or "shall bow" he would have used the indicative mood as he did in Rom 14:11.
Lots of folks think all they have to do is look up meanings in Strong's and eenie, meenie, mine, mo pick one they like. But alas Greek has rules of grammar. Only the indicative mood can be translated "will/shall" perform the action.

 

[Servus]

It is known to scholars as parsing. I listed every Greek word in the vs. and the tense, voice, mood etc. In Philp 2:10 the verb correctly translated "should bow" is Aorist, Active, Subjunctive- 3rd person singular.
Had Paul intended to say "will bow" or "shall bow" he would have used the indicative mood as he did in Rom 14:11.

For Romans 14:11 it's EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW
Romans 14:11 Lexicon: For it is written, "AS I LIVE, SAYS THE LORD, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME, AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL GIVE PRAISE TO GOD."

For Philippians 2:10 it's EVERY KNEE WILL BOW
Philippians 2:10 Lexicon: so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

I wonder how they managed to mess up and put those two in the wrong order. And I wonder why it's never been corrected.

 

[Hmm]

Philippians 2:10
(10) ιναG2443 CONJ ενG1722 PREP τωG3588 T-DSN ονοματιG3686 N-DSN ιησουG2424 N-GSM πανG3956 A-NSN γονυG1119 N-NSN καμψη[kampse']G2578 V-AAS-3S επουρανιωνG2032 A-GPM καιG2532 CONJ επιγειωνG1919 A-GPN καιG2532 CONJ καταχθονιωνG2709 A-GPM
V-AAS-3S Verb, Aorist, Active, Subjunctive- 3rd person singular

I'm not sure it's as simple as that. What would you say about this verse?

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." John 3:16, NIV

Is this also a statement of God's purpose that may not be fulfilled? Is it saying that those who believe should not perish and they should have eternal life, but we can’t be too sure about it?

 

[wendykvw]

It is known to scholars as parsing. I listed every Greek word in the vs. and the tense, voice, mood etc. In Philp 2:10 the verb correctly translated "should bow" is Aorist, Active, Subjunctive- 3rd person singular.
Had Paul intended to say "will bow" or "shall bow" he would have used the indicative mood as he did in Rom 14:11.
Lots of folks think all they have to do is look up meanings in Strong's and eenie, meenie, mine, mo pick one they like. But alas Greek has rules of grammar. Only the indicative mood can be translated "will/shall" perform the action.

Are you implying confession, and worship is forced in Romans 14:11, and Philippians 2:10?

1. God never accepts false worship or confession.
2. By Myself I have sworn; truth has gone out from My mouth, a word that will not be revoked: Every knee will bow before Me, every tongue will swear allegiance. Isa 45:23
3.And they will not need to teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. Hebrews 8:11
4. The whole earth will acknowledge the LORD and return to him. All the families of the nations will bow down before him. Ps 22:27
5. And He has made known to us the mystery of His will according to His good pleasure, which He purposed in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to bring all things in heaven and on earth together in Christ." -Ephesians 1:10