Saturday or Sunday Church?

[rstrats]

Brother, it's possible that The Lord's day is an alternative expression for the first day of the week.

I maintain that it isn't, but let's say that it is - what would be the significance?

 

[guevaraj]

Brother, it's possible that The Lord's day is an alternative expression for the first day of the week. United in seeking God!

Brother, that is not possible! The first day that replaces the Sabbath is a human tradition started by the bishops of Rome as the hour of worship. At first, it was not even a full day. It could be the annual Passover continued after Jesus because that's when He established this memorial of His death.

For I pass on to you what I received from the Lord himself. On the night when he was betrayed, the Lord Jesus took some bread and gave thanks to God for it. Then he broke it in pieces and said, “This is my body, which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” In the same way, he took the cup of wine after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant between God and his people—an agreement confirmed with my blood. Do this in remembrance of me as often as you drink it.” For every time you eat this bread and drink this cup, you are announcing the Lord’s death until he comes again. (1 Corinthians 11:23-26 NLT)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

 

[HIM]

The anyonymous author of Hebrews found different ways of describing the superiority of the Lord Jesus Christ. One of them, which forms the underlying motif of chapters 3 and 4, is that Jesus Christ gives the rest that neither Moses nor Joshua could provide. Under Moses, the people of God were disobedient and failed to enter into God’s rest (Heb. 3:18). Psalm 95:11 (quoted in Hebrews 4:3) implies that Joshua could not have given the people “real rest” since “through David” God speaks about the rest he will give on another day (Heb. 4:7). This in turn implies that “There remains a sabbath rest for the people of God” (Heb. 4:9).

In speaking of this rest (Heb. 3:18; 4:1, 3-6, 8) the author consistently used the same word for “rest” (katapausis). Suddenly, in speaking about the “rest” that remains for the people of God, he uses a different word (sabbatismos, used only here in the NT) meaning specifically a Sabbath rest. In the context of his teaching, this refers fundamentally to the “Sabbath rest” which is found in Christ (“Come . . . I will give you rest,” Matt. 11:28-30). Thus we are to “strive to enter that rest” (Heb. 4:11).

Not so. That rest which is in and of Christ is something we have already entered. The Seventh Day Sabbath is separate. Two things are being spoken of in Hebrews 4. The very text says so. The rest which we have through Christ Jesus and the Seventh Day Sabbath.

Verse 3 states we which have believed do enter the Rest which is the Gospel. How do we know it is the Gospel rest to which he is referring to? Because verse one speaks of a rest which has not been entered and verse 2 calls the rest the Gospel. Verse 4 and 5 state that if we have entered into the rest which is mentioned in verse 3, if we have entered it verse 5 states that the Seventh day in which God rested on is being spoke again. This is brought out by the phrase, "in this again". Which reverts back to verse 4 where it says, "For He spake in a certain place of the Seventh Day on this wise"

And how did He speak? "And God did rest the Seventh Day from all His works"

And How was this spoken and where? As a one of the Ten Commandments on Mt Sinai.

Verses 6-8 are in reference to those whom have not believed and not entered into the Gospel Rest mentioned in verses 1 and 2. As David had said, TODAY if you will hear His voice, harden not your hearts as in the day of provocation through the deceitfulness of sin. If Joshua would have been the one to give them THE rest when they entered into the promise land which was a symbol of it. Joshua himself would not of spoken of another.

Verse 9 goes back to verse 4 and 5. It says in context that there remains therefore a Sabbath keeping to the people of God. Because He speaks again as one of the Ten Commandments of the Seventh Day for us whom have entered into His rest which is the Gospel. Verse 10 further emphasizes this point by stating For He that HAS entered into his rest which is the Gospel ALSO ceases from His work AS God DID from His. God is Spirit. He did not enter into a spiritual rest like we do in Christ. He cease from physical work. He stopped and was refreshed. So we who have entered into the rest which is the Gospel ALSO cease from our own works AS God DID from His. Because as verse 5 stated He speaks again of the Seventh Day for those of us whom have enter into the Gospel rest which is in Christ Jesus.

Heb 3:13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

Heb 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
Heb 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

Heb 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
Heb 4:4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
Heb 4:5 And in this again, If they shall enter into my rest.
Heb 4:6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
Heb 4:7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
Heb 4:8 For if Joshua had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
Heb 4:9 There remaineth therefore a Sabbath keeping to the people of God.
Heb 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

 

[HIM]

About Romans 14 and interpretations,

If Paul is using a loose interpretation of Torah, then he's not teaching against it if he says it's okay to treat all days alike.

I don't know of anyone who really says we should disobey God. It's all a matter of which commandments, and how they are applied today imo.
____________
I believe this concludes post 896. I'm enjoying this discussion, I hope you are too!

The Sabbath is not mentioned. If it was the subject it would have been brought up.
And He is not referencing the Torah at all. The section on only eating vegetables proves this. Nowhere in the Torah is this stated or implied.

 

[Soyeong]

About the law changing or being eternal,

Well, we already talked about eating only plants, then all animals, then some animals.

The nature of animals changed with the fall and we have not been permitted to eat unclean animals since the Fall.

In addition, Hebrews 7
For when the priesthood changes, a change in the law must come, too.

If the content of God's law changed so that it was now in accordance with His righteousness to commit adultery or sinful to help the poor, then God's righteousness would not be eternal, but God's righteousness is eternal, so Hebrews 7:12 could not be referring to a change of the law in regard to content, but rather the context is speaking about a change of the priesthood, which would also require a change of the law in regard to its administration.

So some people are going to look at the situation and say that the law is eternal, but the application changes. Another person will say the law is not eternal.

In practice, it will boil down to the same thing imo.

Again, the Bible says that all of God's righteous laws are eternal (Psalms 119:160), so the person who says that they are not eternal is in direct disagreement with the Bible, while the person who says that the situations under which they apply have changed is acting in accordance with examples in the Bible. There is a huge difference between these two statements:

1.) God's eternal nature has changed, certain instructions for how to act in accordance with His nature that were previously given are no longer valid and we should follow a different set of instructions for how to act in accordance with what God's nature has changed to.

2.) God eternal nature has not changed, so all of the instructions that God has ever given for how to act in accordance with His nature are eternally valid, though the circumstances under which God's laws apply can change.

For example, it is eternally against God's righteousness to commit murder, so a change in God's righteousness and a corresponding change in His law would mean that it is now in accordance with His righteousness to commit murder, while a change in the circumstances under which God's law applies would mean that it is eternally valid that we should refrain from committing murder, though there are circumstances where killing someone is not committing murder. If someone were to execute a group of people because of the crimes that they had been found guilty of committing, then that would not mean that God's command against murder has changed, or that they wouldn't be committing murder if they then killed a random person in cold blood.

 

[Soyeong]

About heaven and earth passing away being an idiom,

I agree. But I think it's an idiom for a cataclysmic event, such as the cross and Resurrection.

Jesus said that he came not to abolish the law, but to fulfill it, so saying that he came to abolish the law through the cross and resurrection is calling him a liar. Jesus said that not the least part would disappear from the law until heaven and earth pass away and that all is accomplished. Heaven and earth are still here and while Christ certainly accomplished a lot through the cross, there is still the 2nd coming and everything that comes with that left to be accomplished, so neither condition has been met.

The Son is the exact expression of God's nature (Hebrews 1:3), so to abolish God's eternal instructions for how to act in accordance with His nature would also be to abolish the Son. In Titus 2:14, it does not say that Jesus gave himself to abolish any laws, but in order to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so the way to believe in what Jesus accomplished through the cross is by becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law (Acts 21:20), while returning to the lawlessness that he gave himself to redeem us from would be the way to reject what he accomplished through the cross. So the freedom that we have in Christ is the freedom from sin, not the freedom to do the things that God has previously revealed to be sin. The fact that Jesus gave himself to pay the penalty for our sins should make us want to go and sin no more, not consider ourselves free to continue to do what God has revealed to be sin.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

The anyonymous author of Hebrews found different ways of describing the superiority of the Lord Jesus Christ. One of them, which forms the underlying motif of chapters 3 and 4, is that Jesus Christ gives the rest that neither Moses nor Joshua could provide. Under Moses, the people of God were disobedient and failed to enter into God’s rest (Heb. 3:18). Psalm 95:11 (quoted in Hebrews 4:3) implies that Joshua could not have given the people “real rest” since “through David” God speaks about the rest he will give on another day (Heb. 4:7). This in turn implies that “There remains a sabbath rest for the people of God” (Heb. 4:9).

In speaking of this rest (Heb. 3:18; 4:1, 3-6, 8) the author consistently used the same word for “rest” (katapausis). Suddenly, in speaking about the “rest” that remains for the people of God, he uses a different word (sabbatismos, used only here in the NT) meaning specifically a Sabbath rest. In the context of his teaching, this refers fundamentally to the “Sabbath rest” which is found in Christ (“Come . . . I will give you rest,” Matt. 11:28-30). Thus we are to “strive to enter that rest” (Heb. 4:11).

Since Augustine, Christians have recognized that the Bible describes human experience in a fourfold scheme: in creation, fall, redemption, and glory. We are familiar with echoes of this in the Westminster Confession of Faith (chapter 9) and in Thomas Boston’s great book Human Nature in its Fourfold State. It is no surprise then that the Sabbath, which was made for man, is experienced by him in four ways.

In creation, man was made as God's image—intended “naturally” as God’s child to reflect his Father. Since his Father worked creatively for six days and rested on the seventh, Adam, like a son, was to copy Him. Together, on the seventh day, they were to walk in the garden. That day was a time to listen to all the Father had to show and tell about the wonders of His creating work.

Thus the Sabbath Day was meant to be “Father’s Day” every week. It was “made” for Adam. It also had a hint of the future in it. The Father had finished His work, but Adam had not.

But Adam fell. He ruined everything, including the Sabbath. Instead of walking with God, he hid from God (Gen. 3:8). It was the Sabbath, Father’s Day, but God had to look for him!

This new context helps us to understand the significance of the fourth commandment. It was given to fallen man—that is why it contains a “you shall not.” He was not to work, but to rest. Externally, that meant ceasing from his ordinary tasks in order to meet with God. Internally, it involved ceasing from all self-sufficiency in order to rest in God’s grace.

Considering this, what difference did the coming of Jesus make to the Sabbath day? In Christ crucified and risen, we find eternal rest (Matt. 11:28-30), and we are restored to communion with God (Matt. 11:25-30). The lost treasures of the Sabbath are restored. We rest in Christ from our labor of self-sufficiency, and we have access to the Father (Eph. 2:18). As we meet with Him, He shows us Himself, His ways, His world, His purposes, His glory. And whatever was temporary about the Mosaic Sabbath must be left behind as the reality of the intimate communion of the Adamic Sabbath is again experienced in our worship of the risen Savior on the first day of the week— the Lord’s Day.

But we have not yet reached the goal. We still struggle to rest from our labors; we still must “strive to enter that rest” (Heb. 4:11). Consequently the weekly nature of the Sabbath continues as a reminder that we are not yet home with the Father. And since this rest is ours only through union with Christ in His death and resurrection, our struggles to refuse the old life and enjoy the new continue.

But one may ask: “How does this impact my Sundays as a Christian?” This view of the Sabbath should help us regulate our weeks. Sunday is “Father’s Day,” and we have an appointment to meet Him. The child who asks “How short can the meeting be?” has a dysfunctional relationship problem—not an intellectual, theological problem—something is amiss in his fellowship with God.

This view of the Sabbath helps us deal with the question “Is it ok to do . . . on Sunday?—because I don’t have any time to do it in the rest of the week?” If this is our question, the problem is not how we use Sunday, it is how we are misusing the rest of the week.

This view of the Lord’s Day helps us see the day as a foretaste of heaven. And it teaches us that if the worship, fellowship, ministry, and outreach of our churches do not give expression to that then something is seriously amiss.

Hebrews teaches us that eternal glory is a Sabbath rest. Every day, all day, will be “Father’s Day!’ Thus if here and now we learn the pleasures of a God-given weekly rhythm, it will no longer seem strange to us that the eternal glory can be described as a prolonged Sabbath!



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There are a couple things with the commentary you posted the author is not taking into consideration.

First I want to note something that I have noticed with most people who argue against keeping the Sabbath commandment, they spend their time trying to discredit the clear scripture we have where God defines His Sabbath, and it is His holy day, period. If Sunday was found to be the biblical correct day, we would have clear scripture stating so, but the text is missing from our bibles so instead people tend to focus on discrediting the Sabbath, God's true holy day according to God. One thing in scripture you will notice there is no disagreement over which day is the Sabbath, no one ever identified any other day other than the Sabbath as God's holy day. People may have defiled the Sabbath, which is still happening today, but there is no argument over the seventh day Sabbath versus the first day in scripture. Thats because this changed occurred not in scripture but in the third century and it is a Pagan tradition that started with sun-worship and turned into Sunday worship. If we follow the scriptures, it is a lamp to our path so we can keep God's True holy day that is not a suggestion by God, but a commandment of God.

The first mistake of the commentary is reading into the scripture that the Sabbath is not a commandment because it does not start with "thou shalt". The commandments came in a unit of Ten Exodus 34:28 written by the finger of God Exodus 31:18 and I don't see anywhere in the scripture that says the commandments of God are multiple choice or that a commandment means a suggestion.

One thing to note, God clearly identifies "His holy Sabbath day" and it's the only day in the entire bible that God claims as such. There is no scripture that says the Lords Day is the first day, or the first day is a day God blessed, made holy for God and for man, its not a day God sanctified. Sunday-keeping is a man-made teaching that leads people away from worshipping God in Truth and Spirit which is what we are called to do John 4:23-24 instead of worshipping in vain obeying man's traditions over the commandments of God as Jesus quotes directly from the Ten Commandments as His example. Matthew 15:3-9. If you break one of the commandments, you break them all as James quotes directly from God's Ten Commandments James 2:10-12

These are God's Words and if one pays careful attention, God never identifies the Sabbath as the holy day for the Jews, God identifies the Sabbath as HIS holy day and God commanded us to keep holy the same day that is holy to Him. Why? Because we are made in His image and the Sabbath which was created from the very beginning of time before Jew, Gentile or sin Genesis 2:1-3 is a memorial to God's creation so we remember everything He has done for us and that our redemption comes from Him and only God can sanctify us. Ezekiel 20:12

Exodus 20:10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God.
Exodus 31:13 : ‘Surely My Sabbaths you shall keep,
Exodus 31:15 Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh is the Sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord.
Leviticus 19:30 ‘You shall keep My Sabbaths and reverence My sanctuary: I am the Lord.
Leviticus 23:3 The Sabbath ‘Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, a holy convocation. You shall do no work on it; it is the Sabbath of the Lord in all your dwellings.
Deuteronomy 5:14 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God.
Isaiah 56:4 For thus says the Lord: “To the eunuchs who keep My Sabbaths, And choose what pleases Me, And hold fast My covenant,
Isaiah 56:6 “Also the sons of the foreigner Who join themselves to the Lord, to serve Him, And to love the name of the Lord, to be His servants— Everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath, And holds fast My covenant
Isaiah 58:13 “If you turn away your foot from the Sabbath, From doing your pleasure on My holy day, And call the Sabbath a delight, The holy day of the Lord honorable, And shall honor Him, not doing your own ways, Nor finding your own pleasure, Nor speaking your own words,
Isaiah 66:23 And from one Sabbath to another, All flesh shall come to worship before Me,” says the Lord.
Matthew 12:8 For the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.”
Mark 2:28 Therefore the Son of Man is also Lord of the Sabbath.”

How many times does God have to repeat Himself so its clear that the Sabbath is HIS HOLY DAY. God's claimed His day, not what was given to God by man that God deems as a working day Exodus 20:9 not the holy day of the Lord which is the seventh day Sabbath. Jesus claimed the same day and is Lord of the Sabbath because it is His Father's Holy Day that Jesus kept His entire life as our example. Luke 4:16. If Jesus wanted us to worship Him on the first day He would have told us, but He instead commanded the apostles to observe everything He commanded them Matthew 28:20. The apostles observed the Sabbath decades after Jesus rose preaching God's Word every Sabbath to Jews, Gentiles and whole cities every Sabbath. Acts 18:4, Acts 13:44, Acts 17:2, Acts 13:42

So when we get to Hebrews 4 this confirms all the teachings of God and Jesus and is not teaching God's rest now is everyday day or another day. The scripture even tells us what day God rested! Hebrews 4:4 but we already know that because God told us right from the beginning. Genesis 2:1-3

Many people tend to overlook verse 10

Hebrews 4:10 For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His.

To enter into the spiritual rest in Christ one must ALSO cease from his work as God did from His. When does God cease from His work? This very passage tells us, on the seventh day. Hebrews 4:4 so in order for us to receive the rest in Christ we must also cease from our work as God did, on the seventh day, which brings us right back to the Sabbath commandment. Exodus 20:8-11 and why Hebrews 4:9 says this:

Hebrews 4:9 There remains therefore a rest for the people of God.

Rest here is sabbatismos which literally means keeping of the Sabbath. So this verse says there remains a keeping of the Sabbath for the people of God.

σαββατισμὸς (sabbatismos)
Noun - Nominative Masculine Singular
Strong's 4520: A keeping of the Sabbath, a Sabbath rest.

This is why we have to be very careful with some commentaries and if it is leading us away from the word of God, we are given this warning Isaiah 8:20 to safeguard us so we can be sure to follow God in Truth and Spirit, which is what we are called to do.

 

[Soyeong]

About Paul saying As the law says at the end of 1 Corinthians 14,

What I'm saying is that Paul says As the law says. He doesn't say According to the traditions you received from us.

The reasonable conclusion is that he was using a loose interpretation of the law. Or, if he was using a rabbinical or apostolic tradition, that tradition was based on a loose interpretation of the law.

Paul referred to multiple different categories of law other than the Law of God, such as works of the law, which contains the traditions of the elders, so justification needs to be given why he should be interpreted as referring to the Law of God when the law he was referring to is not listed in the Law of God.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Verse 9 goes back to verse 4 and 5. It says in context that there remains therefore a Sabbath keeping to the people of God. Because He speaks again as one of the Ten Commandments of the Seventh Day for us whom have entered into His rest which is the Gospel. Verse 10 further emphasizes this point by stating For He that HAS entered into his rest which is the Gospel ALSO ceases from His work AS God DID from His. God is Spirit. He did not enter into a spiritual rest like we do in Christ. He cease from physical work. He stopped and was refreshed. So we who have entered into the rest which is the Gospel ALSO cease from our own works AS God DID from His. Because as verse 5 stated He speaks again of the Seventh Day for those of us whom have enter into the Gospel rest which is in Christ Jesus.

Good point @HIM and Revelation confirm this, which is another call to obedience before Jesus comes!:


Revelation 14:6 Then I saw another angel flying in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to those who dwell on the earth—to every nation, tribe, tongue, and people— 7 saying with a loud voice, “Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water.”

The rest in Christ that we receive when keeping the Sabbath commandment is an everlasting gospel.

We could do a whole study on what it means to fear God, but I will just post this scripture:

Ecclesiastes 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God and keep His commandments, For this is man’s all.

Which is in the 3 Angels' message in Revelation 14:

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

The everlasting gospel is connected to the Sabbath. Revelation 14:12 and worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water.”

Where do we see this exact verbiage? In the 4th commandment that God spoke and God wrote with His own finger.

Exodus 20:8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

God bless!

 

[Leaf473]

Let's say that it is - what would be the significance?
."

well, as far as my conversation with @guevaraj goes, if it makes sense to wish people Happy Sabbath because the Bible has an alternative expression for the seventh day, then it makes sense to wish them happy first day as well.

To me, it seems like a good idea to wish people a happy day every day of the week.

Happy third day of the week coming up in just about 2 hours, based on sunset in Jerusalem.
__________________
Edit: for more details and background about my conversation with guevaraj, you could check out this thread:
Are different Sabbaths true?

 

[Soyeong]

About the four laws in Acts 15 being four categories,

If this is for beginners, how would they know what the 66 laws are?

What are the 66 laws?

They would straightforwardly know what the 66 laws are by someone teaching them. I don't own the book that the acquaintance was speaking to me about, so I don't have a list, but I gave some examples of some of the laws that fit under the umbrella of what it means to refrain from sexual immorality.

More about Acts 15

I think the specific thing under discussion is:
"It is necessary to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.”

Which, and I mean this gently, sounds like what you are saying.

The apostles give a resounding No, imo.

What are the four laws, then? They are the minimum behaviors from the law of Moses that the gentiles would need to do to keep from totally offending the Jews in the church.

Are they the only restrictions on behaviors for Christians? No. But I think the apostles expect that the spirit will lead the gentiles and conform them to the image of Christ.

There are, of course, occasional guidelines given by people like Paul. But I don't think he's intending to give an additional set of commandments.

Jerusalem Council ruled in favor of the group of Pharisees from among the believers in Acts 15:5 and against the men who came from Judea in Acts 15:1, so there was no group there who was arguing against Gentiles becoming circumcised or obeying the Law of Moses. Christ is the example image of God's nature expressed through setting a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to the Law of Moses, so it is contradictory for someone to want to become conformed to the image of Christ while not wanting to follow Christ's example of obedience to the Law of Moses, especially when as his followers we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22).

It's like the situation with inappropriate contentography today. It's not mentioned in the Bible. But most Christians have a sense that something is wrong with it, and work to avoid it.

Romans 1:29 They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips,

The Greek word used in this verse is "inappropriate contenteia" from which the word "inappropriate contentography" is derived.

There are more ways to do what is righteous or sinful than what is specifically prescribed or prohibited by God's law, but God's law is spiritual in that it has always been intended to teach us how to express spiritual principles of which the lists laws are just examples, and which are aspects of God's nature/fruits of the Spirit. For example, God's righteous laws teach us about a spiritual principle of righteousness that leads us to take physical actions that are examples of that principle in accordance with what God's law instructs, even in situations where God's law does not specifically address, where we need to infer what other things are in accordance with that principle based on things that God has revealed to be in accordance with it. If someone thought they understood the principle of love, so they no longer needed to take physical actions in accordance with God's law for how to love, such as heling the poor, then they would be incorrectly understanding the spiritual principle of love, so correctly understanding the spiritual principles behind God's law that the Spirit leads us to obey will never lead us away from taking physical actions that are examples of those principles in accordance with what God's law instructs. So the Spirit leads Gentiles in order to conform them to the image of Christ and what that looks like is obedience to the Mosaic Law (Ezekiel 36:26-27, Romans 8:4-7, Galatians 5:19-23), while it is contradictory for someone to want to be conformed to the image of Christ by the Spirit while not wanting to obey the Mosaic Law.

 

[Leaf473]

Brother, that is not possible! The first day that replaces the Sabbath is a human tradition started by the bishops of Rome as the hour of worship. At first, it was not even a full day. It could be the annual Passover continued after Jesus because that's when He established this memorial of His death.

For I pass on to you what I received from the Lord himself. On the night when he was betrayed, the Lord Jesus took some bread and gave thanks to God for it. Then he broke it in pieces and said, “This is my body, which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” In the same way, he took the cup of wine after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant between God and his people—an agreement confirmed with my blood. Do this in remembrance of me as often as you drink it.” For every time you eat this bread and drink this cup, you are announcing the Lord’s death until he comes again. (1 Corinthians 11:23-26 NLT)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

Brother, John calling the first day the Lord's Day, if that's what he did, doesn't necessarily mean it replaces the Sabbath.

United in one Spirit!

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Brother, John calling the first day the Lord's Day, if that's what he did, doesn't necessarily mean it replaces the Sabbath.

United in one Spirit!

There is no scripture that says the first day is the Lords day. God claimed His day and never once said anything about the first day other than it is a day of work and labor. Exodus 20:6

These are God's clear Word.

Exodus 20:10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God.
Exodus 31:13 : ‘Surely My Sabbaths you shall keep,
Exodus 31:15 Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh is the Sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord.
Leviticus 19:30 ‘You shall keep My Sabbaths and reverence My sanctuary: I am the Lord.
Leviticus 23:3 The Sabbath ‘Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, a holy convocation. You shall do no work on it; it is the Sabbath of the Lord in all your dwellings.
Deuteronomy 5:14 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God.
Isaiah 56:4 For thus says the Lord: “To the eunuchs who keep My Sabbaths, And choose what pleases Me, And hold fast My covenant,
Isaiah 56:6 “Also the sons of the foreigner Who join themselves to the Lord, to serve Him, And to love the name of the Lord, to be His servants— Everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath, And holds fast My covenant
Isaiah 58:13 “If you turn away your foot from the Sabbath, From doing your pleasure on My holy day, And call the Sabbath a delight, The holy day of the Lord honorable, And shall honor Him, not doing your own ways, Nor finding your own pleasure, Nor speaking your own words,
Isaiah 66:23 And from one Sabbath to another, All flesh shall come to worship before Me,” says the Lord.
Matthew 12:8 For the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.”
Mark 2:28 Therefore the Son of Man is also Lord of the Sabbath.”

 

[Bob S]

Sabbath observers sound so authoritative, that is until one reads what the Bible is really not telling us. It is not telling US to observe Sunday as some believe and it is not telling US to observe the Sabbath that was given to only one nation, Israel. The Bible is telling US that Israel was given a new and better covenant and ratified by Jesus blood at Calvary. A new covenant does not mean an old one just warmed over, it means what it says, new. Paul wrote so plainly that the ten commandments of the old covenant have been replaced with Jesus' gift to all mankind, the Holy Spirit. John wrote so plainly the Jesus kept Torah and asks US to love one another as He loves us. Paul wrote in Eph 2 that Jesus set aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. John wrote in 1Jn3: 19-24 that we, US, belong to the truth if we believe in the one God sent and love others as He commanded. Paul wrote in Gal 3 that Jews were under the Law until Jesus, verse 19. Note; Gentiles were never under the Law. Paul also wrote in Col 2 not to allow anyone to judge US by what we eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. Remember what Paul wrote in 2Cor3 about the ten commandments being temporary. Reading the Bible without preconceived beliefs gives US a new prospectus on the authoritative Sabbath observers teachings.

 

[Soyeong]

Brother, John calling the first day the Lord's Day, if that's what he did, doesn't necessarily mean it replaces the Sabbath.

United in one Spirit!

The day of the Lord has a specific meaning in Jewish eschatology that is often referred to as "on that day" (Matthew 7:22, Luke 10:12, Luke 17:31, Romans 2:16, 2 Thessalonians 1:10, 2 Timothy 1:18, 2 Timothy 4:8) and it refers to the day that John was seeing in his vision, not to the day of the week on which he happened to have his vision.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Sabbath observers sound so authoritative, that is until one reads what the Bible is really not telling us. It is not telling US to observe Sunday as some believe and it is not telling US to observe the Sabbath that was given to only one nation, Israel. The Bible is telling US that Israel was given a new and better covenant and ratified by Jesus blood at Calvary. A new covenant does not mean an old one just warmed over, it means what it says, new. Paul wrote so plainly that the ten commandments of the old covenant have been replaced with Jesus' gift to all mankind, the Holy Spirit. John wrote so plainly the Jesus kept Torah and asks US to love one another as He loves us. Paul wrote in Eph 2 that Jesus set aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. John wrote in 1Jn3: 19-24 that we, US, belong to the truth if we believe in the one God sent and love others as He commanded. Paul wrote in Gal 3 that Jews were under the Law until Jesus, verse 19. Note; Gentiles were never under the Law. Paul also wrote in Col 2 not to allow anyone to judge US by what we eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. Remember what Paul wrote in 2Cor3 about the ten commandments being temporary. Reading the Bible without preconceived beliefs gives US a new prospectus on the authoritative Sabbath observers teachings.

God is the Authoritative and is in charge of His Word. God made ever so clearly the seventh day Sabbath is His holy day, not the holy day of Jews. When we obey His commandments it shows that we place our trust in Him and believe what He asks is for our own good.

The Sabbath is not a shadow of anything because it came before sin, before Jew it is God's perfect way to live. The Sabbath was made for man according to Jesus Mark 2:27 and man was created on the sixth day Genesis 1:26 , right before the first Sabbath in the presence of God. Genesis 2:1-3 and once Jesus restores what sin did to this world those saved will once again worship the Lord in His presence every Sabbath for eternity. Isaiah 66:22-23 God's will for His children is the same in heaven as it is on this earth and God wrote His will, His Testimony on stone with His own finger that is kept in the ark of the covenant in the Most Holy of God's Temple where He dwells in Heaven Revelation 11:19. God is not going to be okay with those saved only keeping 9 of His Ten Commandments.

If you back up to Colossians 2:14 it tells you the context of Colossians 2:16 it is referring to ordinances that was handwritten by man, not commandments that was FINGER written by God. This is not referring the seventh day Sabbath commandment and we know that for certain because Jesus speaks that the Sabbath would be kept long after He ascended back to heaven Matthew 24:20 and in heaven the Sabbath remains as the day of worship on the New Heaven and New Earth for all eternity. Isaiah 66:23

There is no scripture that says we can break the commandments of God, but God's saints keep the commandments of God and faith in Jesus until the very end. Revelation 14:12

Looks like we will have to agree to disagree, and this will get sorted out soon enough. There is nothing to lose by keeping God's commandments, but what if those who don't keep them are wrong, that God really meant what He said. There is no commandment for Sunday-keeping, but there is for Sabbath-keeping because it is God's holy day (undisputed) Exodus 20:10, Isaiah 58:13

 

[Soyeong]

About some examples where we probably disagree in the application of the law,

There are some laws about not eating unclean animals. I think the application isn't about what goes in our mouths, but what comes out of our hearts.

God commanded against eating unclean animals, so and issue of how to apply that command might be whether that command still applies in a situation where someone is starving to death and the only things available to eat are unclean animals. However, you are going well beyond speaking about how that law applies to saying that we no longer need to refrain from eating unclean animals and should instead simply understand that is what comes out of our mouth that defiles us as if God could have simply just said that in the first place instead of commanding against eating unclean animals. That's not applying the law differently as if there were extenuating circumstances that made you unable to refrain from eating unclean animals, but rather that is just refusing to obey what God has commanded and deciding that you are going do something else instead.

Furthermore, if you understand that as being the spiritual principle behind God's command to refrain from eating unclean animals, then that should lead you to take physical actions that are examples that testify about that principle by refraining from eating unclean animals instead of living in a way that denies the truth of that principle. The spiritual principles behind God's commands can't be contrary to taking physical actions that are examples of those principles.

If a passage is speaking on one topic, then we should not insert another topic that they did not mentioned and then interpret that passage as speaking against obeying what God has commanded in regard to that other topic. For example, when Romans 14, 1 Corinthians 10, and Mark 7 say nothing about the topic of the Sabbath or eating unclean animals, we should not insert those topics into the passage without regard to the topics they were discussing and then interpret them as speaking against obeying what God has commanded.

In Mark 7:1-13, Jesus criticized the Pharisees as being hypocrites for setting aside the commands of God in order to establish their own traditions, but that doesn't matter to you because you feel free to interpret Jesus as turning around and even more hypocritically doing what he just finished criticizing the Pharisees for doing. In Deuteronomy 4:2, it is a sin to add to or subtract from the law, and in Deuteronomy 13:4-5, the way that God instructed His people to determine that someone was a false prophet who was not speaking for Him was if they taught against obeying what He has commanded, so if Jesus had done as you suggest, then according to God, we should regard him as being a sinner and a false prophet. His critics would have for once had a legitimate reason to stone him and they wouldn't have needed to find false witnesses at his trial, but this incident was not even brought up, and no one seemed to have noticed that Jesus had made such as radical statement against the Father. It is for more reason to interpret Mark 7:14-15 as Jesus continuing to speak about the topic that he was discussing in regard to not being made common by eating with unwashed hands, especially because he never switched from that topic in Matthew 15:20.

A different example is Leviticus 13
“The leper in whom the plague is shall wear torn clothes, and the hair of his head shall hang loose. He shall cover his upper lip, and shall cry, ‘Unclean! Unclean!’

I don't think people with a particular skin condition should have to dress that way or walk around that way today. But we do want to realize that sin is to be avoided, and that God judges sin.

The Hebrew word "tzaraat" does not have an English equivalent, so "leprosy" is the best bad word choice available, but the way that it is described definitely does not match leprosy. For example, in Matthew 8:2-3, the person did not ask for Jesus to heal them, but for him to make them clean, so it is a completely different motive and concept.

 

[Soyeong]

About quoting from the Didache,

Do you consider it authoritative? Scripture?

What are you using for your Canon of scripture?

I did not quote it as an authoritative source, but as an example of what was being taught to early Christians. We should try to do all that God has commanded, but if we are unable to, then we should nevertheless be faithful to do what we can.

About traveling for festivals and laws regarding Temple practice,

The temple was still standing for the first 40 years after the resurrection.

So the people that Paul is writing to in Romans, Corinthians, Galatians... they would all be under those laws, if I understand you correctly.

Learning to obey what God has commanded is a process, otherwise we wouldn't go to church to hear a sermon taught every week.

One other thought about traveling to Jerusalem for feasts and sacrifices,

Is the idea that you don't have to do it if it's too difficult? But what about the passage from Deuteronomy that I believe you've quoted that says the law is not too difficult for you?

It would be because the command was for those who were living in the land, not because it was too difficult.

 

[Soyeong]

About Romans 14 and interpretations,

If Paul is using a loose interpretation of Torah, then he's not teaching against it if he says it's okay to treat all days alike.

I don't know of anyone who really says we should disobey God. It's all a matter of which commandments, and how they are applied today imo.
____________
I believe this concludes post 896. I'm enjoying this discussion, I hope you are too!

Please define exactly what you mean by "a loose interpretation of Torah". There is a difference between discussing how to correctly obey what God has commanded and whether to obey what God has commanded, and you seem to think that a loose interpretation of the Torah extends to deciding for ourselves whether to obey what God has commanded. God commanded to keep the 7th day holy, so saying to treat all days alike would not just be loosely interpreting God's command, but rather it it would be in direct opposition to Him and would be saying that we should disobey God. We can't do both, so if there were a conflict between what God commanded and what Paul said, then we have to determine who has the higher authority and which one we should follow. The bottom line is that we must obey God rather than man, so we should be quicker to disregard everything that Paul has said than to disregard anything that God has commanded, through the reality is that Paul was a servant of God who never spoke against anyone obeying anything that God has commanded.

I'm also enjoying the conversation, though I think you are taking way too much liberty in how to interpret the Torah. We should be careful not to mistake things as being said about obeying what God has commanded when they were only said against following man's opinions of which God has given no command, and even if any man were speaking against obeying what God has commanded, then we should obey God instead.

 

[guevaraj]

Brother, John calling the first day the Lord's Day, if that's what he did, doesn't necessarily mean it replaces the Sabbath. United in one Spirit!

Brother, what the bishops of Rome did by replacing the Ten Commandment's Sabbath with Sunday violates two basic principles in the word of God, especially since the Sabbath was instituted before sin entered the human family. First, God does not change or cast a shifting shadow.

So don’t be misled, my dear brothers and sisters. Whatever is good and perfect is a gift coming down to us from God our Father, who created all the lights in the heavens. He never changes or casts a shifting shadow. (James 1:16-17 NLT)​

Second, disobedience to one of the Ten Commandments disobeys them all.

For the person who keeps all of the laws except one is as guilty as a person who has broken all of God’s laws. For the same God who said, “You must not commit adultery,” also said, “You must not murder.” So if you murder someone but do not commit adultery, you have still broken the law. (James 2:10-11 NLT)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge