Science Deniers Try to Take Over a Sarasota Public Hospital

probinson

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I still don't see any reason why you're continuing with this approach after being shown how actual researchers evaluate how vaccines work in the wild (hint - by comparing the relative infection rates between the vaccinated and unvaccinated population).

Right. Your vaccine will prevent you from getting infected from July-August 2021 (i.e the time-period studied). But surprise! You get infected in September 2021 instead. It might make the narrative that vaccines "prevent" infections sound good, but to the people who actually get infected after the study period, I don't think they care.

Are we really supposed to think that a random amateur on the internet has somehow figured out that people who do this for a living are all wrong?

"People who do this for a living" have been astonishingly wrong all throughout the pandemic.

That doesn't mean that vaccines "completely failed to slow the spread of COVID".
Do you agree that "everyone" (or nearly everyone) is going to get COVID? If so, then the vaccines will fail at a rate of 100% to prevent infections. Or if you prefer, complete failure.
 
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probinson

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Are you trying to sell the idea that your posts are pro-vaccination?
Absolutely.

By ignoring the broken promises of the COVID vaccines and conflating COVID vaccines with every other effective vaccine we have, vaccine zealotry is undoing decades of progress in the overall vaccination programs. This is why we're beginning to see the re-emergence of diseases that were all but eradicated. Mandating and coercing people to be vaccinated against their will was always a recipe for broken trust and failure, and the inevitable outcome of that broken trust is people wondering what else they've been lied to about. Now, other vaccines that have ABSOLUTELY proven effective are being questioned and shunned in greater numbers than ever before. This is a direct result of the destruction of trust in public health.

You are desperately attempting to cling to the collapsing belief that vaccines will prevent you from getting infected. We know that's not true. Yet here you are saying, "Look at this study from last year that examined 2 months! Vaccines prevent infections!" It's nonsense, and everyone knows it's nonsense. Heck, I think even you have to know that it's nonsense, which makes me wonder why you continue to pretend like it's true.

Instead of clinging to the demonstrably false assertion that the vaccine will prevent you from being infected, it would be far better to tell people that they'll almost certainly get infected whether they're vaccinated or not, but if they're vaccinated, they'll have a better chance of avoiding severe disease and/or death. It would also be wise to be honest about prior infection, and recognize that prior infection does confer protection as well.

Honesty is always the best policy. This continued assertion that COVID vaccines have not completely failed to stop infections is counterproductive in the extreme and will cause far more vaccine hesitancy and shunning than any anti-vaxxer could ever hope to achieve.
 
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probinson

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I must be the worst anti-vaxxer ever.

Both my wife and I have had all of our recommended vaccines. Both of our children received all of their vaccines on the recommended schedule. I and my daughter have had 2 doses of the Pfizer COVID vaccine. My son and my wife had the single dose J&J. I would also agree with the general statement that vaccines have saved more lives than any other medical intervention in our lifetimes.

That said, I have seen no compelling evidence that me, my wife, my son or my daughter would benefit from a COVID booster as we've all been vaccinated and all had (relatively mild) COVID infections. Further, as I've examined the data that was presented on these COVID vaccines in the clinical trials, I am appalled at that paucity of data that was required to authorize them. I am further appalled at the hand-waving of side-effects, the failure to recognize prior infection as protective, and the incessant downplaying of the age-stratification of risk. The claim of "95% efficacy" was misleading from the beginning. The so-called "bivalent" vaccine is going to be rubber-stamped by the FDA next month and they will require no data that shows a benefit. Heck, some colleges are already stating that they'll mandate this new vaccine, even though it doesn't even exist yet!

I am not an "anti-vaxxer", no matter how many people falsely accuse me of such. It's just an intellectually dishonest, lazy attempt to discredit me via ad hominem. The bottom line is, there are real concerns with the harm these vaccines (and the COVID response in general) are doing to evidence-based medicine, and that's why I post so much about it.
 
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probinson

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The CDC has updated their guidance today. Here is an interesting point;

Screen Shot 2022-08-11 at 5.43.51 PM.png


The CDC now says that vaccinated and unvaccinated people alike have the same guidance. Huh. This sounds a lot like a tacit admission that whether you're vaccinated or not, you have the same likelihood of getting infected and/or infecting someone else so you should follow the same guidance regardless of your vaccination status. Seems all of that discrimination and bigotry against the unvaccinated was all for naught. Although it was enlightening to see who was cool with bigotry and discrimination.
 
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KCfromNC

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Right. Your vaccine will prevent you from getting infected from July-August 2021 (i.e the time-period studied). But surprise! You get infected in September 2021 instead. It might make the narrative that vaccines "prevent" infections sound good, but to the people who actually get infected after the study period, I don't think they care.
At least we've given up on the false claim that vaccines "completely failed to slow the spread of COVID" and are backtracking to something else.
 
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Estrid

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The CDC has updated their guidance today. Here is an interesting point;

View attachment 319597

The CDC now says that vaccinated and unvaccinated people alike have the same guidance. Huh. This sounds a lot like a tacit admission that whether you're vaccinated or not, you have the same likelihood of getting infected and/or infecting someone else so you should follow the same guidance regardless of your vaccination status. Seems all of that discrimination and bigotry against the unvaccinated was all for naught. Although it was enlightening to see who was cool with bigotry and discrimination.
It's not bigotry if you don't want a guy coughing and sneeezing in the cubicle
next to you.
 
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probinson

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The same guidance on what, exactly?
On everything COVID related. You really should click some of the links I post and try reading them. The CDC is essentially no longer distinguishing between vaccinated and unvaccinated people in any of their COVID guidance.
 
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probinson

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probinson

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At least we've given up on the false claim that vaccines "completely failed to slow the spread of COVID" and are backtracking to something else.
No backtracking here. The vaccines will in fact completely fail to prevent infections. That's the only way that "everyone" will eventually get COVID.
 
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Estrid

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No, but it is bigotry to support discrimination in education and employment based on a vaccine that will ultimately fail to protect you from infection. 40% of black students in Washington D.C. are poised to be denied an equal education due to these foolish and ineffective mandates.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2022/07/31/dc-schools-covid-vaccine-mandate/
.
" Fail to protect" is garbage.
The shots, however misunderstood,
never could have prevented infection
an exposed person.
It teaches the body to be prepared and
fight the virus quickly and effectively.

I had a low fever for a day.

Now, that extreme and often senseless
measures were employed around the world
is too well known for discussion. All of it
bigotry? Ha. How would that even enter in
to policy in Oz, Canada. China, Philippines?


And if someone wants to detect prejudice
and bigotry, well, they always can. Also
does not need discussing.

To illustrate though-

At Uni in NYC, I encountered a few unsavoury
people. Another Chinese girl was constantly
(in her account) harassed and subjected
to all manner of discrimination and prejudice.
 
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Estrid

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No backtracking here. The vaccines will in fact completely fail to prevent infections. That's the only way that "everyone" will eventually get COVID.
So? Fatalities are way down. Check yer facts.
 
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KCfromNC

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You really should click some of the links I post and try reading them.
I read all of the zero links in the post I quoted.

The fact that it was an un-sourced graphic with no context made me wonder what it was really talking about versus what the post claimed it was saying.
 
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KCfromNC

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No backtracking here. The vaccines will in fact completely fail to prevent infections.
Weird about-face, given in post 121 you said you agreed that research showed the vaccines can prevent infections :

Your vaccine will prevent you from getting infected from July-August 2021 (i.e the time-period studied).
Kinda weird how quickly the story changes from post to post.
 
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LeafByNiggle

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"People who do this for a living" have been astonishingly wrong all throughout the pandemic.
They were not wrong nearly as often as people who do NOT do this for a living, but think they know enough to contradict those who do.

Do you agree that "everyone" (or nearly everyone) is going to get COVID? If so, then the vaccines will fail at a rate of 100% to prevent infections. Or if you prefer, complete failure.

False. Covid vaccines prevent some infections some of the time, and that in itself is a good thing. But much better and more important is the fact the covid vaccines are very effective at reducing the severity of illness to the point of saving many lives. We see this with flu vaccines too, where in their lifetime, practically everyone will get the flu at least once. But with flu vaccines fewer people get the flu, and those that do have milder symptoms.
 
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Estrid

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They were not wrong nearly as often as people who do NOT do this for a living, but think they know enough to contradict those who do.



False. Covid vaccines prevent some infections some of the time, and that in itself is a good thing. But much better and more important is the fact the covid vaccines are very effective at reducing the severity of illness to the point of saving many lives. We see this with flu vaccines too, where in their lifetime, practically everyone will get the flu at least once. But with flu vaccines fewer people get the flu, and those that do have milder symptoms.
oo
Your friend is a little too eager to try to play gotcha. In
 
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probinson

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" Fail to protect" is garbage.
The shots, however misunderstood,
never could have prevented infection
an exposed person.
Can you name the three endpoints in the original Pfizer clinical trial?

It teaches the body to be prepared and
fight the virus quickly and effectively.

I had a low fever for a day.
How do you account for unvaccinated people who also had a low fever for a day? If you believe the cause of your low fever for a day was the vaccine, it seems to call into question that hypothesis when unvaccinated people have the same results.
 
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probinson

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Weird about-face, given in post 121 you said you agreed that research showed the vaccines can prevent infections :

Your vaccine will prevent you from getting infected from July-August 2021 (i.e the time-period studied).
Kinda weird how quickly the story changes from post to post.

The story hasn't changed one bit, and you know that. If your vaccine provides fleeting protection in the months of July and August but you get infected in September, then it failed to protect you from infection.
 
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probinson

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They were not wrong nearly as often as people who do NOT do this for a living, but think they know enough to contradict those who do.

Not really. Public health agencies have been working overtime to discredit themselves.

False. Covid vaccines prevent some infections some of the time, and that in itself is a good thing.
How? If everyone is going to get COVID as the White House said after Biden got it, what does it matter if it prevents an infection in July but does not prevent an infection in August?

But much better and more important is the fact the covid vaccines are very effective at reducing the severity of illness to the point of saving many lives.

Or, people getting infections have developed protection from their prior infection. The CDC (finally) this is the case in their new guidance out last week. This is, in fact, how every pandemic has come to an end.

We see this with flu vaccines too, where in their lifetime, practically everyone will get the flu at least once. But with flu vaccines fewer people get the flu, and those that do have milder symptoms.

Yeah, we don't see that at all. In fact, annual flu vaccine uptake is a very poor predictor of the burden of a flu season.

Unfortunately, COVID vaccines have become a new kind of ideologic religion, where you just have to "believe" in them hard enough. That's why people who get COVID have a prepared script that says, "I'm so thankful for my COVID vaccine because my infection would have been so much worse without it." Of course, this ignores millions of unvaccinated people who got COVID and also had a very mild disease. Heck, some disease is so mild, you need a test to tell you that you're sick. But graciously, all of this completely useless asymptomatic testing is coming to an end, much to the chagrin of the testing companies I'm sure.
 
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