Oh boy - I wondered what this whole Mar A Lago thing was about

JosephZ

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The idea that all this information has to be permanently declassified by the president through a bureaucratic process that also declassifies it in every situation is rather ludicrous.

The idea that this process follows a strict declassification process is bunko.
Here's a summary of the declassification process. Since documents found at Mar a Lago were still marked as classified, he failed to go through the proper process to declassify them.

The "SCI" designation is an abbreviation for "Sensitive Compartmented Information" and refers to classified information involving sensitive intelligence sources, methods or analytical processes, and which can only be discussed within a "SCIF" — a "Sensitive Compartmented Information Facility" — a secure room or building limited to government officials with a corresponding security clearance.

As for the president's power to declassify materials, here's some background on how it works, according to current and former intelligence officials familiar with the declassification process.

First, a U.S. president does have uniquely sweeping declassification abilities, though there is a process that involves written documentation and several other steps.

It's not the case that a president can declassify documents with just verbal instructions. His instruction to declassify a given document would first be memorialized in a written memo, usually drafted by White House counsel, which he would then sign.

Typically, the leadership of the agency or agencies with equities in the document would be consulted and given an opportunity to provide their views on the declassification decision. As the ultimate declassification authority, however, the president can decide to override any objections they raise.

Once a final decision is made, and the relevant agency receives the president's signed memo, the physical document in question would be marked — the old classification level would be crossed out — and the document would then be stamped, "Declassified on X date" by the agency in question.

Former Trump administration officials have claimed that Trump previously declassified the documents taken with him to Mar-a-Lago, but that the classification markings had not been updated.

"The White House counsel failed to generate the paperwork to change the classification markings, but that doesn't mean the information wasn't declassified," former Trump defense official Kash Patel told Breitbart in May, regarding other material that had earlier been removed from Mar-a-Lago. "I was there with President Trump when he said 'We are declassifying this information.'"

Courts may ultimately have to decide how sweeping a sitting president's declassification powers can be. But U.S. officials familiar with the classification process to date point out that, unless and until the documents are stamped "Declassified" by the requisite agency, and following the submission of a written memo signed by the president, they have historically not been considered declassified.


Trump says "it was all declassified" — how declassification usually works - CBS News
 
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Yttrium

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Right.



Actually, it doesn't. There's all sorts of rules that dictate when classified information is able to be shared. Declassifying it on these instances doesn't mean it has to be declassified in every circumstance. If a federal agent needs to share information with another agent with a lower clearance....there's times when that happens and a process for how it's done. That doesn't give the other agent higher clearance, nor does it declassify the information to everyone across the board. One of the obvious circumstances of an example of this process is called "need to know". We would say that in such instances, the information needed is temporarily declassified, and once "need to know" ends....the agent can't share it again.

The idea that all this information has to be permanently declassified by the president through a bureaucratic process that also declassifies it in every situation is rather ludicrous. The president has advisors who simply won't have the clearance or need to know...like Dr Fauci for example....where he can simply hand a pile of highly classified information, ask for their advice on it, and have them acknowledge that they understand it cannot be shared and they risk prosecution should they share it.

The idea that this process follows a strict declassification process is bunko.

Really. So how long did you handle classified information?

(It was around 20 years for me.)
 
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childeye 2

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Well...no, he can't sell that information. He can declassify it. If you sell information about our government which puts our society at risk, it arguably doesn't matter if it's top secret or just something you know. You would be guilty of espionage.
Arguably, a President could commit arguable crimes of arguable espionage in plain sight and arguably call it foreign policy.


You would think that....but I don't know. Presidents frequently share information with allies and enemies abroad in pursuit of goals for the nation. I don't exactly know what he can't speak of apart from perhaps military issues. Even then....there's so much overlap between administration goals and limited military engagements....I don't know where the line gets drawn.
The issue for me is that the law is always trying to keep up with the criminal mind that finds ways to exploit loopholes in the letter of the law. But, I know that a salesman sells, and I can see what the salesman is selling.

I'm just hoping that this has to do with more than simply not turning over documents. I'm hoping there's evidence of a real crime on those documents. I think if it's just the docs....this is a huge misstep.
I think it's mainly about getting the documents returned to the legal custodian, the National archives. I don't think it's a misstep by the justice department. I think that's their job to enforce the laws.
 
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childeye 2

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Are the Dems just going to just gloss over this fact? Yup.
Respectfully, you're mistaken. The National archives refuted that assertion.

Statement from National Archives on Trump accustions on Obama records
The National Archives and Records Administration (NARA) assumed exclusive legal and physical custody of Obama presidential records when President Barack Obama left office in 2017, in accordance with the Presidential Records Act (PRA). NARA moved approximately 30 million pages of records of unclassified records to a NARA facility in the Chicago area where they are maintained exclusively by NARA. Additionally NARA maintains the classified Obama Presidential records in a NARA facility in the Washington, DC, area. As required by the PRA, former President Barack Obama has no control over where and how NARA stores the presidential records of his administration.
 
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Hank77

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Now....I'm sure the reason her staffers smashed her servers with hammers is so they could be bagged up more easily when the FBI arrived.
That didn't happen. The emails were not on a server in her home.
 
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Valletta

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Here's a summary of the declassification process. Since documents found at Mar a Lago were still marked as classified, he failed to go through the proper process to declassify them.

The "SCI" designation is an abbreviation for "Sensitive Compartmented Information" and refers to classified information involving sensitive intelligence sources, methods or analytical processes, and which can only be discussed within a "SCIF" — a "Sensitive Compartmented Information Facility" — a secure room or building limited to government officials with a corresponding security clearance.

As for the president's power to declassify materials, here's some background on how it works, according to current and former intelligence officials familiar with the declassification process.

First, a U.S. president does have uniquely sweeping declassification abilities, though there is a process that involves written documentation and several other steps.

It's not the case that a president can declassify documents with just verbal instructions. His instruction to declassify a given document would first be memorialized in a written memo, usually drafted by White House counsel, which he would then sign.

Typically, the leadership of the agency or agencies with equities in the document would be consulted and given an opportunity to provide their views on the declassification decision. As the ultimate declassification authority, however, the president can decide to override any objections they raise.

Once a final decision is made, and the relevant agency receives the president's signed memo, the physical document in question would be marked — the old classification level would be crossed out — and the document would then be stamped, "Declassified on X date" by the agency in question.

Former Trump administration officials have claimed that Trump previously declassified the documents taken with him to Mar-a-Lago, but that the classification markings had not been updated.

"The White House counsel failed to generate the paperwork to change the classification markings, but that doesn't mean the information wasn't declassified," former Trump defense official Kash Patel told Breitbart in May, regarding other material that had earlier been removed from Mar-a-Lago. "I was there with President Trump when he said 'We are declassifying this information.'"

Courts may ultimately have to decide how sweeping a sitting president's declassification powers can be. But U.S. officials familiar with the classification process to date point out that, unless and until the documents are stamped "Declassified" by the requisite agency, and following the submission of a written memo signed by the president, they have historically not been considered declassified.


Trump says "it was all declassified" — how declassification usually works - CBS News
Fake News. The article is false. A president can declassify material with verbal instructions. President Obama's Executive Order exempts the president and vice president from such procedures.
 
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Valletta

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Respectfully, you're mistaken. The National archives refuted that assertion.

Statement from National Archives on Trump accustions on Obama records
The National Archives and Records Administration (NARA) assumed exclusive legal and physical custody of Obama presidential records when President Barack Obama left office in 2017, in accordance with the Presidential Records Act (PRA). NARA moved approximately 30 million pages of records of unclassified records to a NARA facility in the Chicago area where they are maintained exclusively by NARA. Additionally NARA maintains the classified Obama Presidential records in a NARA facility in the Washington, DC, area. As required by the PRA, former President Barack Obama has no control over where and how NARA stores the presidential records of his administration.
Once records are "accessioned" to NARA that means custody is transferred and NARA controls them. NARA also holds records that are not accessioned, they merely hold records for an agency. For instance, the CIA owns groups of records at NARA, the CIA actually has a declassification officer there and a request for those records to NARA would end up with the CIA officer. So NARA does not control or own records until those records are transferred to their control. Classified records remain classified until the proper authority declassifies those records. It was Sandy Berger, former advisor to President Clinton, who had stuffed records down his pants and got caught, yet he was not prosecuted. The statement by NARA does not address whether Obama kept any records that were never turned over to NARA.
 
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Hank77

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It was Sandy Berger, former advisor to President Clinton, who had stuffed records down his pants and got caught, yet he was not prosecuted.
:rolleyes:

In 2005, he was fined and sentenced to two years of probation plus community service for unauthorized removal of classified material from the National Archives. He gave up his license to practice law.
Sandy Berger - Wikipedia
 
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childeye 2

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The statement by NARA does not address whether Obama kept any records that were never turned over to NARA.
We need to understand that propaganda works by introducing a false premise to reason upon.

So of course, Nara wouldn't need to address how Obama kept records that were never turned over to NARA when his Presidency ended, because it didn't happen. They only released the statement to expose the propaganda.
 
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Pommer

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Fake News. The article is false. A president can declassify material with verbal instructions. President Obama's Executive Order exempts the president and vice president from such procedures.
Do you mean to imply that boxes of documents could be declassified by the President without them knowing exactly what documents they contain?
 
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JosephZ

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A president can declassify material with verbal instructions. President Obama's Executive Order exempts the president and vice president from such procedures.
Here's a link to President Obama's EO: Basic Laws and Authorities

I'm not seeing where it says a president can declassify material with verbal instructions, maybe you can point that out to me. I did see where declassified material must be recorded in a database regardless of who declassified them. I'm almost certain that not all of the documents found at Mar a Lago will be found in a Declassification Database.

The EO also says "Nothing in this order shall supersede any requirement made by or under the Atomic Energy Act of 1954, as amended, or the National Security Act of 1947, as amended." This would mean that any documents pertaining to nuclear energy, or nuclear weapons have to go through a more thorough process of declassification and are exempt from automatic declassification.
 
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Valletta

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Here's a link to President Obama's EO: Basic Laws and Authorities

I'm not seeing where it says a president can declassify material with verbal instructions, maybe you can point that out to me. I did see where declassified material must be recorded in a database regardless of who declassified them. I'm almost certain that not all of the documents found at Mar a Lago will be found in a Declassification Database.

The EO also says "Nothing in this order shall supersede any requirement made by or under the Atomic Energy Act of 1954, as amended, or the National Security Act of 1947, as amended." This would mean that any documents pertaining to nuclear energy, or nuclear weapons have to go through a more thorough process of declassification and are exempt from automatic declassification.
The president, as head of the executive branch, is the authority for all declassification. When the president issues executive orders, as Obama did, he exempts himself from the requirement that he imposes on his subordinates. Congress cannot usurp his powers. Declassification and classification orders are issued from the office of the president. The nuclear codes or nuclear secrets hoax is an obvious fabrication, once again from an anonymous source. We have a president who had refused to obey the laws of this country and enforce the border laws, Joe is months away from being impeached. You are being distracted. Congress can make laws but Congress cannot usurp the Constitution. They try. For example, the Constitution sets the requirements for president, age, etc. The Democrats want laws regarding those who hold office to apply to President Trump. However, the requirement as to who can hold the office of President is in the Constitution. The Constitution would have to be legally amended in order to get Trump barred from running for office. Otherwise any party in power could make a law stopping their political opponents from running for President. They could pass a law saying no one over 80 could run for office, but it is not enforceable because it would be unConstitutional.
 
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Ana the Ist

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Here's a summary of the declassification process. Since documents found at Mar a Lago were still marked as classified, he failed to go through the proper process to declassify them.

Uh huh.

The "SCI" designation is an abbreviation for "Sensitive Compartmented Information" and refers to classified information involving sensitive intelligence sources, methods or analytical processes, and which can only be discussed within a "SCIF" — a "Sensitive Compartmented Information Facility" — a secure room or building limited to government officials with a corresponding security clearance.

This is a tidbit of information that is supposed to make you feel like this is super important.

As for the president's power to declassify materials, here's some background on how it works, according to current and former intelligence officials familiar with the declassification process.

First, a U.S. president does have uniquely sweeping declassification abilities, though there is a process that involves written documentation and several other steps.

It's not the case that a president can declassify documents with just verbal instructions. His instruction to declassify a given document would first be memorialized in a written memo, usually drafted by White House counsel, which he would then sign.

Typically, the leadership of the agency or agencies with equities in the document would be consulted and given an opportunity to provide their views on the declassification decision. As the ultimate declassification authority, however, the president can decide to override any objections they raise.

Here's the part where they tell you that ultimately any declassification is up to the President alone. He can certainly wait until he receives feedback, but since it's his decision, he doesn't have to.

Once a final decision is made, and the relevant agency receives the president's signed memo, the physical document in question would be marked — the old classification level would be crossed out — and the document would then be stamped, "Declassified on X date" by the agency in question.

Right....this is one way that someone without access might gain access. There's many different situations where information gets shared without any change in classification at all.

Former Trump administration officials have claimed that Trump previously declassified the documents taken with him to Mar-a-Lago, but that the classification markings had not been updated.

"The White House counsel failed to generate the paperwork to change the classification markings, but that doesn't mean the information wasn't declassified," former Trump defense official Kash Patel told Breitbart in May, regarding other material that had earlier been removed from Mar-a-Lago. "I was there with President Trump when he said 'We are declassifying this information.'"

Courts may ultimately have to decide how sweeping a sitting president's declassification powers can be. But U.S. officials familiar with the classification process to date point out that, unless and until the documents are stamped "Declassified" by the requisite agency, and following the submission of a written memo signed by the president, they have historically not been considered declassified.


Trump says "it was all declassified" — how declassification usually works - CBS News

Historically lol.

Consider this....an FBI office in Cincinnati was recently attacked by a gunman.

If any of the multiple intelligence agencies, or law enforcement agencies, or regulatory agencies, or almost any of them came across information that another attack was being planned on other offices....tomorrow. Unfortunately, since the FBI is a different agency under a different department....and the FBI agents who need to know this info don't have clearance....

What exactly do you imagine happens in this situation?

Do you think it looks like the process above?
Do you think they're calling up Joe Biden and trying to explain to him what needs to happen?
Do you think Joe Biden gets up in the middle of the night and calls whomever and tells them to write a memo lol?
Then once that memo is reached by everyone....we all start this conversation about what should be declassified and when lol?
Then once we all give our opinions....Biden does whatever he wants regardless? We all just go along?

Or....here's a suggestion....there's a myriad of exceptions to the process described above and the information won't necessarily even reach Biden's desk until long after it's acted on?

And when you consider all the rules, exceptions, etc....and consider who makes those rules, and can change them basically whenever they want.....

Who do you think makes those rules? Who ultimately holds authority over the issue?
 
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JosephZ

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The president, as head of the executive branch, is the authority for all declassification. When the president issues executive orders, as Obama did, he exempts himself from the requirement that he imposes on his subordinates. Congress cannot usurp his powers. Declassification and classification orders are issued from the office of the president.
And there's a procedure for this and Trump didn't follow it.
 
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Valletta

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Uh huh.



This is a tidbit of information that is supposed to make you feel like this is super important.



Here's the part where they tell you that ultimately any declassification is up to the President alone. He can certainly wait until he receives feedback, but since it's his decision, he doesn't have to.



Right....this is one way that someone without access might gain access. There's many different situations where information gets shared without any change in classification at all.



Historically lol.

Consider this....an FBI office in Cincinnati was recently attacked by a gunman.

If any of the multiple intelligence agencies, or law enforcement agencies, or regulatory agencies, or almost any of them came across information that another attack was being planned on other offices....tomorrow. Unfortunately, since the FBI is a different agency under a different department....and the FBI agents who need to know this info don't have clearance....

What exactly do you imagine happens in this situation?

Do you think it looks like the process above?
Do you think they're calling up Joe Biden and trying to explain to him what needs to happen?
Do you think Joe Biden gets up in the middle of the night and calls whomever and tells them to write a memo lol?
Then once that memo is reached by everyone....we all start this conversation about what should be declassified and when lol?
Then once we all give our opinions....Biden does whatever he wants regardless? We all just go along?

Or....here's a suggestion....there's a myriad of exceptions to the process described above and the information won't necessarily even reach Biden's desk until long after it's acted on?

And when you consider all the rules, exceptions, etc....and consider who makes those rules, and can change them basically whenever they want.....

Who do you think makes those rules? Who ultimately holds authority over the issue?
And there's a procedure for this and Trump didn't follow it.
The president is not subject to the procedures you wish to impose upon him. The president is the final authority on classification, he may set procedures for those who work for him.
 
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JosephZ

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The president is not subject to the procedures you wish to impose upon him.
The President can't just declassify documents without entering them into a database and marking the documents as being declassified. Documents found at Mar a Lago were still marked classified, so we know he didn't do this. As far as anything relating to nuclear, presidents do not have the authority to declassify that type of information.
 
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The president is not subject to the procedures you wish to impose upon him. The president is the final authority on classification, he may set procedures for those who work for him.
Yeah no, the ex president does not simply get to keep nuclear secrets because he feels like it. He is not a king who gets to change things at his whim.
 
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Valletta

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Yeah no, the ex president does not simply get to keep nuclear secrets because he feels like it. He is not a king who gets to change things at his whim.
It's a fabrication, another hoax. Russia Russia Russia, Hunter Biden laptop disinformation, Insurrection, nuclear codes or plans kept by Trump by yet another anonymous source. Espionage? Sedition? The guy has never even had a speeding ticket, his family is clean, Hunter Biden has the longest self video documenting his own crimes in world history, Joe's been caught lying about Hunter's business, and the Justice Department won't prosecute.
 
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JosephZ

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It's a fabrication, another hoax. Russia Russia Russia, Hunter Biden laptop disinformation, Insurrection, nuclear codes or plans kept by Trump by yet another anonymous source. Espionage? Sedition?
Is the inventory of what was removed from Mar a Lago a hoax also?
 
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Valletta

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Is the inventory of what was removed from Mar a Lago a hoax also?
There were real documents there, Trump let the government go through whatever they wanted. Then they asked him if he would please put a lock on the room, he told them he would and did. Now this month they came back, broke the lock, and took the boxes. If they wanted more documents they should have asked instead of making a show of force. Garland likely will be impeached because of this overreach. We just had an attack on Rushdie that the FBI should have prevented, the guy was a sympathizer of Muslim extremist groups, the FBI knew this but they are using their resources against Trump and those who support Trump.
 
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