The rest of the dead live not again

[DavidPT]

David, Justin Martyr professed to be a Christian. It would be a mistake to question his faith. God alone will judge. Therefore believing JM died in faith why would he not be among the living (spirit) souls in heaven, since he lived and reigned with Christ while alive during this time, symbolized a thousand years? So even though Justin may not have realized during his life that the time he partook of the first resurrection of Christ was during the symbolic thousand years that would not change the fact that he has no fear of the second death. Because in life he partook of Christ and lived and reigned with Christ a thousand symbolic years. The criteria for entrance into heaven after physical death (1) have part of the first resurrection in life (2) live and reign with Christ during the symbolic thousand years (3) be blessed and holy (4) be priests of God and Christ. By his life, Justin Martyr seems to have met the criteria for entrance into the Kingdom of heaven after death whether he had perfect understanding of all doctrine or not.

Roger, he would be among the living souls in heaven except that doesn't have to mean he is experiencing the millennium while there, though.

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.


Take this passage for instance, the martyrs in verse 9 are depicted as resting in heaven not reigning on thrones and being priests of God and Christ while in a disembodied state. These in verse 11, their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, why would these not be meaning any of these in Revelation 20:4---which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands?


Which then could mean this. These in verse 9 above are meaning these in Revelation 20:4--- that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God---which would include saints such as John the Baptist, Stephen, Justin Martyr, etc, while these in verse 11 are meaning saints that are martyred when the beast ascends out of the pit.

If any of these in verse 9 above are meaning any of these in Revelation 20:4, once again, these in verse 9 are not depicted as reigning on thrones and being priests of God and Christ while in a disembodied state, they are depicted as resting instead. How can resting and reigning be the same thing? Does Revelation 20 ever say anyone rests with Christ a thousand years? No. It says they reign with Him a thousand years. Therefore, the thousand years can't be meaning now because Revelation 6:9-11 depicts martyrs resting in heaven, not reigning in heaven instead.

What are the martyrs in verse 9 told to do? that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. That obviously means they continue to rest until every single fellowservant also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, is fulfilled.

And since their brethren are not all killed at the same time, is one to believe that when each of them are killed they then enter heaven, not to join the other martyrs already resting, but to sit on thrones and reign with Christ the remainder of the thousand years, as if earthly time is somehow relevant in heaven, that heaven also has 24 hour cycles? Because, after all, years are determined by 24 hour days. Even if one insists a thousand years is really two thousand years, those two thousand years are still being based on 24 hour cycles.

Some will argue, especially you, that time is no more once the 7th trumpet sounds, which means there can't be a thousand years after the 2nd coming because a thousand years consist of time and that it contradicts that time is no more. Why then doesn't a thousand years in heaven contradict anything? Heaven is timeless. A thousand years speaks of time. How is that not a contradiction if a thousand years are somehow relevant in heaven?

Jeremiah 31:35 Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.


According to these verses, the only way it is possible that the seed of Israel can cease from being a nation before God for ever, is if the ordinances in verse 35 can depart from Him. How can these ordinances in verse 35 not involve measurable time? And according to this passage, measurable time like this apparently exists forever, because if it doesn't that means the seed of Israel shall cease from being a nation before Him for ever. How does one get around this passage without making God out to be a liar here?

And then if we factor in verse 37, is one seriously going to argue that heaven above can be measured? That too is the only way the seed of Israel can cease from being a nation before Him for ever, if heaven above can be measured.

 

[5thKingdom]

I find it interesting that there essentially 2 groups:

1.) those who partake in the first resurrection during the 1,000 years (believers)

2.) the rest of the dead that stand before the GWTJ (unbelievers)


The vision of millennium separates the “resurrection” of the believers to live and reign with Christ for 1,000 years, and unbelievers to face the 2nd death by “Satan’s little season”.

however, the gospels and epistles teach no such separation….

Act 1:6-7
When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou
at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? And he said unto them, It is not for you
to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.



The Gospel of the Church Age or the Christian "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 13]
was to "seek and save" all the lost sheep. It was never God's intention for any saint
to "understand" or "see" the separation between the Church Age and the Great Tribulation
(Revelation Beast) until the "time of the end" and/or "Season and Time" [Dan 7:11-12]
on earth AFTER the destruction of that Beast.


Dan 12:8-10
And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?
And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly:
and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.


Mat 24:33
So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.


The Gospel of the Bible PROMISES no saint (until the "time of the end")
will be able to understand what God "closed-up" and "sealed" about Daniel's
Fourth Beast/Kingdom (also shown as the Revelation Beast)... however,
the Last Saints... "shall understand".


The Gospel of the Bible PROMISES no saint (until the Last Saints)
"shall see all these things" (all Great Tribulation prophecies) being fulfilled
in real-time. Understand, the Last Saints (those changed in a "twinkling of an eye",
at the resurrection)... those Saints can give the NAME of the man called the "Little Horn"
or the "False Prophet" or the "Man of Sin"... the person commonly called THE "Anti-Christ".


Only the LAST SAINTS are alive to see the FULFILLMENT of these prophecies,
only the LAST SAINTS can "understand" and "see all these things"... at least,
that is what the Bible teaches.


Do not marvel about this reality.
The Pre-Flood Saints did not "see" future Jewish and Christian Kingdoms.
The Jewish Saints could never "see" the END of their Kingdom and
The Church Age Saints could not "see" the END of their Kingdom
NOR the fulfillment of events AFTER the Great Commission...
as the Revelation Beast would RULE for a "Little Season".


.

 

[DavidPT]

as the Revelation Beast would RULE for a "Little Season".


.

A little season is mentioned twice in the book of Revelation, and I tend to think they are not meaning one and the same. Which means that I would be applying what you said here to that of the little season mentioned in Revelation 6 rather than the little season mentioned in Revelation 20. As to you, do you think they are speaking of different little seasons, or do you think they both are one and the same? If the latter this would indicate that you take the thousand years to be prior to the 2nd coming rather than after. Because, if after the 2nd coming there is no Revelation 13 beast to rule for a little season. It would be in the lake of fire instead.

 

[DavidPT]

Since spiritualjew stated the “rest of the dead” doesn’t include believers, which seems to be agreed upon by most in this thread, I’m curios as to where he places the resurrection of the “just” in revelation 20. Looking forward to that response.

For John to not have mentioned the bodily resurrection of the 'just' in Revelation 20, I find that to be absurd. If the first resurrection isn't the bodily resurrection of the 'just', and neither is when the rest of the dead live again, this means John felt the bodily resurrection of the 'just' was unimportant, so unimportant that he neglects to even mention it. Of course though, it is one's interpretation, not John himself, that is the real problem here.

 

[rwb]

Roger, he would be among the living souls in heaven except that doesn't have to mean he is experiencing the millennium while there, though.

David, he experienced the symbolic thousand years while alive on earth. The thousand years symbolize TIME. Time on earth, not literal time, but symbolic, likened to a thousand years. Heaven exists in eternity where there is no time.

It is in time, symbolized a thousand years that we must have part in the first resurrection, so that in death we can live and reign with Christ even after physical death forever. So, the second death has no power over us. This is what the vision is showing John, and he is telling us.

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Take this passage for instance, the martyrs in verse 9 are depicted as resting in heaven not reigning on thrones and being priests of God and Christ while in a disembodied state. These in verse 11, their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, why would these not be meaning any of these in Revelation 20:4---which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands?

These martyred souls are NOT yet in heaven in this passage. They are under the altar. Which means they believe the Messiah will come to redeem them from death. But they lived and died faithful saints before the advent of Christ's coming to make atonement for them through His cross and resurrection.

Remember no one could go to heaven after death until Christ went there after defeating sin and death by His cross. He had to first literally go there to prepare a place for them and us. It is because they lived and died before Christ came to earth as man and left us with His Gospel to proclaim unto all the earth, that there is no mention of them being witnesses for Jesus. How could they be witnesses of whom they had not seen or known? But they believed the prophets who proclaimed a Messiah would come to redeem the faithful.

Ephesians 4:8-10 (KJV) Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

For this reason, they are "under the altar" which means they are covered by Christ's atoning blood, but until His blood literally made atonement for them, they would not ascend to heaven until after Christ gave His life on the cross and resurrected from the dead. These martyred souls are the Old Covenant faithful saints, who died looking for the Messiah to come, and after Christ made atonement for them by His cross and resurrection, we see them again only next time we see them they are first being sealed, and then seen before the throne of God in heaven.

White robes are given to them, and they are told they must wait a little season until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. When is their little season? I believe their little season began when Christ began His ministry on earth. That was when He was baptized by John in the Jordan, and declared to be the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. John bare record that Jesus is the Son of God.

John 1:29-34 (KJV) The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me. And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water. And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him. And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost. And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.

So the little season for the martyred souls of Rev 6 I believe began when Jesus came with power at the beginning of His three- and one-half year ministry on earth and ended when Christ defeated sin and death by His cross.

Please don't misunderstand, I am NOT saying Satan's little season will be appx 3 1/2 years. I have no way of knowing that. But after Christ defeated sin and death, we next see these souls being sealed in Rev 7 by the Spirit. Why would the dead need to be sealed by the Holy Spirit? It is the Spirit that gives life, and He is given to be with those of faith until we receive our resurrected immortal and incorruptible bodies. So, the Spirit must seal the Old Covenant faithful because they died before Christ sent Him to make alive all who believer by grace through faith.

If you notice the sealing in Rev 7 is only of the 144,000 faithful from all the tribes of the children of Israel. According to Hebrews in the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem it is only the 'spirits' of just men made perfect. They will not be bodily perfected with all believers until the body is resurrected when the seventh trumpet sounds. But as perfect in spirit through His Spirit they have been made perfect.

Revelation 7:3-4 (KJV) Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Ephesians 1:13-14 (KJV) In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Hebrews 12:22-23 (KJV) But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Finally, we see the same 144,000 in Rev 14 the firstfruits unto God and the Lamb. They are now pictured before the throne of God in heaven.

Revelation 14:1-5 (KJV) And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

What are the martyrs in verse 9 told to do? that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. That obviously means they continue to rest until every single fellowservant also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, is fulfilled.

I believe their fellow servants and their brethren killed as they were is referring to the remnant of Jewish Christians who were martyred when Christ came to earth a man. It would be Jews like John the Baptist for one. It could not have been more than a remnant because after the cross and resurrection, when the Gospel was sent unto all the nations of the world there ceased being a distinction between Jew and Gentile to all who are of faith. From that time forward whoever is born again of Christ is neither Jew nor Gentile, but a new person in Christ; Christian.

Some will argue, especially you, that time is no more once the 7th trumpet sounds, which means there can't be a thousand years after the 2nd coming because a thousand years consist of time and that it contradicts that time is no more. Why then doesn't a thousand years in heaven contradict anything? Heaven is timeless. A thousand years speaks of time. How is that not a contradiction if a thousand years are somehow relevant in heaven?

I argue when the last trumpet sounds time shall be no longer because that is what the Bible tells us. Rev 10:5-7

Jeremiah 31:35 Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.

According to these verses, the only way it is possible that the seed of Israel can cease from being a nation before God for ever, is if the ordinances in verse 35 can depart from Him. How can these ordinances in verse 35 not involve measurable time? And according to this passage, measurable time like this apparently exists forever, because if it doesn't that means the seed of Israel shall cease from being a nation before Him for ever. How does one get around this passage without making God out to be a liar here?

And then if we factor in verse 37, is one seriously going to argue that heaven above can be measured? That too is the only way the seed of Israel can cease from being a nation before Him for ever, if heaven above can be measured.

Jeremiah 31:31-37 (KJV) Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name: If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever. Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

Fulfillment of the covenant spoken by Isaiah is fulfilled through Christ, according to Hebrews.

Hebrews 8:6-13 (KJV) But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

The Seed of Israel is Christ and all who are in Him are Israel of God. That is who the eternal Covenant promise is to. The nation the Seed (Christ) that will never cease is not the natural seeds, but a spiritual SEED. And the people of Christ are a holy nation,, not an ethnic one.

1 Peter 2:9-10 (KJV) But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

 

[Timtofly]

And what is one thing that is mentioned in Revelation 20:4? Being beheaded. Unless I'm mistaken, history records that Justin Martyr was beheaded. Justin Martyr was obviously a Premill. I wonder what this means after JM was beheaded, the fact he never believed he was living in the time of the millennium when he was beheaded? Does this mean when he entered heaven upon death that he then became an instant Amill and that he is now no longer anticipating a millennium in the future after he has been raised from the dead?

No one will be martyred nor beheaded to ensure everlasting life during the Millennium. Only those who disobey, will join the lost in Death.

 

[rwb]

For John to not have mentioned the bodily resurrection of the 'just' in Revelation 20, I find that to be absurd. If the first resurrection isn't the bodily resurrection of the 'just', and neither is when the rest of the dead live again, this means John felt the bodily resurrection of the 'just' was unimportant, so unimportant that he neglects to even mention it. Of course though, it is one's interpretation, not John himself, that is the real problem here.

Just because John doesn't mention the bodily resurrection of the just does not mean the just will not be resurrected bodily the same hour as the unjust. The difference is the unjust will be resurrected for condemnation, and the just resurrection to life. I've already shown you the verses from John 5:28-29. As well as other verses to prove this.

 

[Timtofly]

For John to not have mentioned the bodily resurrection of the 'just' in Revelation 20, I find that to be absurd. If the first resurrection isn't the bodily resurrection of the 'just', and neither is when the rest of the dead live again, this means John felt the bodily resurrection of the 'just' was unimportant, so unimportant that he neglects to even mention it. Of course though, it is one's interpretation, not John himself, that is the real problem here.

Because the just never tasted death, nor waited for a future resurrection. They are currently enjoying Paradise in permanent incorruptible physical bodies.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Then where is the resurrection of the “just” in revelation 20?

It's not referenced there. Why does it need to be? Instead, it refers to those who have physically died and had previously shared (had part) in Christ's resurrection (the first resurrection - Acts 26:23) spiritually. It says "they lived and reigned with Christ", not "they were bodily resurrected and reigned with Christ". A physically dead (but not spiritually dead) person can live and reign with Christ without having to be bodily resurrected first.

Do you have any thoughts on what I said in post #33? I know it raised this question you asked, but I'd like to know what your thoughts are on what I said in that post.

 

[Timtofly]

These martyred souls are NOT yet in heaven in this passage. They are under the altar. Which means they believe the Messiah will come to redeem them from death. But they lived and died faithful saints before the advent of Christ's coming to make atonement for them through His cross and resurrection.

Sorry but the 1,000 years is literal, and "those souls under the alter" is symbolic. You have them backwards.

"Under the alter" is symbolic of being covered by the Atonement. You are currently a soul under the alter. You have accepted the Atonement of the Cross. This symbolism is not their literal state, but the 1,000 years will be a literal Millennium on earth.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

For John to not have mentioned the bodily resurrection of the 'just' in Revelation 20, I find that to be absurd.

And I find the Premil interpretation of Revelation 20 to be absurd. I'm glad we've now established that we each find each other's interpretations to be absurd.

I have a question for you. As you know, Revelation 20:6 says that those who have part in the first resurrection are "blessed and holy" and the second death has no power over them. Do you believe that someone has to be bodily resurrected in order for the second death to not have power over them?

 

[rwb]

Sorry but the 1,000 years is literal, and "those souls under the alter" is symbolic. You have them backwards.

"Under the alter" is symbolic of being covered by the Atonement. You are currently a soul under the alter. You have accepted the Atonement of the Cross. This symbolism is not their literal state, but the 1,000 years will be a literal Millennium on earth.

I can't help but notice the lack of Scripture corroboration with your reply. But I do understand, because there are no verses from Scripture to corroborate this opinion.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Roger, he would be among the living souls in heaven except that doesn't have to mean he is experiencing the millennium while there, though.

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.


Take this passage for instance, the martyrs in verse 9 are depicted as resting in heaven not reigning on thrones and being priests of God and Christ while in a disembodied state.

So, your understanding of "being priests of God and Christ" is apparently that it involves literally "reigning on thrones", right? Do you understand that we (believers) are currently "priests of God and Christ"?

Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

Are you sitting on a throne while you act as a priest of God and Christ, David? I'm not. Do I need to get one? Or do you think maybe your idea of what it means to be a priest of God and Christ is flawed?

And, as I've told you before, that passage (Rev 6:9-11) is not saying the souls of the dead in Christ are in heaven just laying around and resting and doing nothing while they wait for their deaths to be avenged. That is not at all what it's saying. It's saying that they should rest easy and not worry about it and just patiently wait for their blood to be avenged. You can patiently wait for something while still doing other things in the meantime.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Assuming the millennium is after the 2nd coming, why would any believer die during the millennium?

Why wouldn't they? Aren't they mortal? Are you saying you think that only immortal believers would be on the earth during a future millennium and none of the mortal unbelievers can become believers? If so, what is the point of the millennium in your view?

And why would any believer die after the millennium?

Why wouldn't they? Would there be no mortal believers?

Where does it say or remotely suggest that God also devours believers with fire out of heaven after the millennium? That is the only death I see taking place after the millennium.

So, it has to be explicitly referenced in order to happen? You believe that the first resurrection involves the bodily resurrection of all believers, right? Where is that stated in Revelation 20? It's not. But, you still believe that because of what scripture teaches elsewhere (such as in 1 Thess 4:14-17) instead of insisting on it being explicitly stated in Revelation 20. Yet, for some reason, you don't think any believers can die during Satan's little season just because it doesn't explicitly say that they can.

Where is the consistency in how you interpret scripture? In one passage you only go by what is explicitly stated and don't allow for any other possibilities and in another passage you don't.

There is no mention of believers dying during the millennium nor after.

So, if something isn't specifically mentioned, it can't happen? That's obviously not true and I already gave the example above where you believe the first resurrection involves all of the dead in Christ even though that isn't specifically mentioned in Revelation 20 anywhere.

During the millennium believers have returned back to life, not are still dying instead.

Again, so no mortal unbeliever could become a believer during that time? Is that what you believe?

Granted, because of what is recorded in Isaiah 65:20, some Premills assume there is death taking place during the millennium, except it couldn't be including believers even if there is death still taking place. The first resurrection means to most Premills, maybe not all Premills, that believers have been bodily raised at the beginning of the millennium, thus impossible for them to ever die again.

I'm clearly not saying that anyone who has been resurrected and has an immortal body could die again. You understand that, right? But, if you believe that no mortal unbelievers can become believers and die during that time, then you need to explain that because I don't believe that makes any sense.

 

[Timtofly]

I can't help but notice the lack of Scripture corroboration with your reply. But I do understand, because there are no verses from Scripture to corroborate this opinion.

We were talking about your Scripture, that you brought up.

For this reason, they are "under the altar" which means they are covered by Christ's atoning blood, but until His blood literally made atonement for them, they would not ascend to heaven until after Christ gave His life on the cross and resurrected from the dead. These martyred souls are the Old Covenant faithful saints, who died looking for the Messiah to come, and after Christ made atonement for them by His cross and resurrection, we see them again only next time we see them they are first being sealed, and then seen

Remember this quote?

Are you saying you had no Scripture to corroborate your point?

You literally have no Scripture to corroborate parallelism in Revelation. That is human opinion.

You use human opinion to state Revelation is not chronological. Now you don't even understand the Lamb of God and God's alter are symbolic of Atonement, which is the central theme of the Gospel?

You made the point yourself, then accuse me of no corroboration for your very own point?

Those in Revelation 6 under the alter is the whole church. That is what is being symbolized. The putting on of white robes is the point of glorification. Paul taught that in the point of this verse: 1 Corinthians 15:53

"and this mortal must put on immortality."

I know you interpret that verse wrong. You claim Greek pagan mythology, ie mortals and immortals. That is not what Paul was saying at all. Mortals do not become immortals. Give me one verse in the Bible that corroborates that point.

1 Corinthians 15:53 corroborates Revelation 6:11.

 

[5thKingdom]

A little season is mentioned twice in the book of Revelation, and I tend to think they are not meaning one and the same. Which means that I would be applying what you said here to that of the little season mentioned in Revelation 6 rather than the little season mentioned in Revelation 20. As to you, do you think they are speaking of different little seasons, or do you think they both are one and the same?

The "Little Season" of Rev 20 (when Satan rules) is the SAME "Little Season" of Rev 6:11
(when previously killed saints WAIT for vengeance). This is not hard.

If the latter this would indicate that you take the thousand years to be prior to the 2nd coming rather than after. Because, if after the 2nd coming there is no Revelation 13 beast to rule for a little season. It would be in the lake of fire instead.

Like the Apostles and early Christians (and Reformers), we can understand the 1000 years
is a spiritual A-Millennial Kingdom. Do you not know that the term A-Millennial means
there is no physical 1000 years.


The prefix a- would typically signify a negation of a word.
This is christian eschatology 101


Jim

 

[claninja]

It's not referenced there. Why does it need to be? Instead, it refers to those who have physically died and had previously shared (had part) in Christ's resurrection (the first resurrection - Acts 26:23) spiritually. It says "they lived and reigned with Christ", not "they were bodily resurrected and reigned with Christ". A physically dead (but not spiritually dead) person can live and reign with Christ without having to be bodily resurrected first.

We seem to agree that the rest of the physically dead that lived not until after the 1,000 years refers to the resurrection of unjust.

How then does the “rest of the dead lived not until after the thousand years”, equaling the resurrection of the unjust, not imply the physically dead, that did live and reign with Christ, equal the resurrection of the just?

Do you have any thoughts on what I said in post #33? I know it raised this question you asked, but I'd like to know what your thoughts are on what I said in that post.

I think your point in post 33 reflects and argument more geared against dispensational premil, which I agree with in that context, and not necessarily historical premil. I typically have no interest in debating against dispensational premil because it’s so inconsistent in interpretation (imho), however, historical premil is much more reasonable and consistent in interpretation. That being said, historical premil tends to agree that those who partake in the first resurrection are all believers throughout history, while the rest of the dead judged after the 1,000 years are all unbelievers throughout history. They have the resurrection of the just and the resurrection of the unjust separated by 1,000 years plus Satan’s little season. So your counter argument doesn’t really impact that position.

however, I think the historical premil position on revelation 20 does raise more questions than answers:

1.) why don’t the gospels and epistles mention a large period separation between resurrection of just and unjust? Why does the parable of the sower mention the destruction of the wicked first, opposite of revelation 20?

2.) the people that are deceived once Satan is released, were they unbelievers? Or do they include those from the resurrection of the just? If they include the latter, there is no hope for us in the bodily resurrection to be able to fight of temptation.

3.) how can one witness the descending of Christ and resurrection of the just and remain an unbeliever? If an unbeliever believes after witnessing that event are they immediately transformed into a new body, and are they not the included with the rest of the dead later?

I asked @DavidPT some of these questions, but got no response.

 

[DavidPT]

Jeremiah 31:31-37 (KJV) Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name: If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever. Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

Fulfillment of the covenant spoken by Isaiah is fulfilled through Christ, according to Hebrews.

Hebrews 8:6-13 (KJV) But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

The Seed of Israel is Christ and all who are in Him are Israel of God. That is who the eternal Covenant promise is to. The nation the Seed (Christ) that will never cease is not the natural seeds, but a spiritual SEED. And the people of Christ are a holy nation,, not an ethnic one.

1 Peter 2:9-10 (KJV) But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

Roger, the reason I brought up some of this passage to begin with is to show that measurable time apparently never ceases, because if it does it also means that the seed of Israel shall cease from being a nation before God for ever. It wasn't my intention to get into a discussion about the seed of Israel in that passage. So, let's start over, keeping in mind that one thing you are arguing, time is literally no more once the 7th trumpet sounds, and that 1000 years speak of time, therefore, there can be no thousand years after the 7th trumpet sounds because time is no more once it sounds. Thus the main reason I brought up Jeremiah 31 and those particular verses.

Jeremiah 31:35 Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37 Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.


Let's start with verse 35. Does or does that not describe measurable time as opposed to something that is timeless? How can what is recorded in verse 35 not involve 24 hour cycles thus measurable time?

Then in verse 36 it says---If those ordinances depart from before me. What ordinances? How can they not be the very same ones mentioned in verse 35 having to do with measurable time? Before the beginning in Genesis 1, were these same ordinaces already in affect? I seriously doubt it since there wouldn't be any sun, moon, or stars yet. And there wouldn't be any seas yet until there is first an earth. There was no earth prior to the beginning, right?

Verse 36 goes on to say---then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.

So then, does this mean the seed of Israel will cease from being a nation before Him for ever? Or does this mean the seed of Israel will not cease from being a nation before Him for ever?

How long should we assume for ever is? Only a finite amount of time? Or a never ending amount of time? Because what ever we decide for ever is meaning here, these ordinances in verse 35 parallel it all throughout it.

A) the seed of Israel will cease from being a nation before Him for ever---equals this---If those ordinances in verse 35 depart from before Him.

B) the seed of Israel will not cease from being a nation before Him for ever---equals this---If those ordinances in verse 35 never depart from before Him.

That's the only two options I see. 1 of those options makes God out to be a liar, the other one doesn't.

 

[rwb]

Roger, the reason I brought up some of this passage to begin with is to show that measurable time apparently never ceases, because if it does it also means that the seed of Israel shall cease from being a nation before God for ever. It wasn't my intention to get into a discussion about the seed of Israel in that passage. So, let's start over, keeping in mind that one thing you are arguing, time is literally no more once the 7th trumpet sounds, and that 1000 years speak of time, therefore, there can be no thousand years after the 7th trumpet sounds because time is no more once it sounds. Thus the main reason I brought up Jeremiah 31 and those particular verses.

Jeremiah 31:35 Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37 Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

Let's start with verse 35. Does or does that not describe measurable time as opposed to something that is timeless? How can what is recorded in verse 35 not involve 24 hour cycles thus measurable time?

Then in verse 36 it says---If those ordinances depart from before me. What ordinances? How can they not be the very same ones mentioned in verse 35 having to do with measurable time? Before the beginning in Genesis 1, were these same ordinaces already in affect? I seriously doubt it since there wouldn't be any sun, moon, or stars yet. And there wouldn't be any seas yet until there is first an earth. There was no earth prior to the beginning, right?

Verse 36 goes on to say---then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.

So then, does this mean the seed of Israel will cease from being a nation before Him for ever? Or does this mean the seed of Israel will not cease from being a nation before Him for ever?

How long should we assume for ever is? Only a finite amount of time? Or a never ending amount of time? Because what ever we decide for ever is meaning here, these ordinances in verse 35 parallel it all throughout it.

A) the seed of Israel will cease from being a nation before Him for ever---equals this---If those ordinances in verse 35 depart from before Him.

B) the seed of Israel will not cease from being a nation before Him for ever---equals this---If those ordinances in verse 35 never depart from before Him.

That's the only two options I see. 1 of those options makes God out to be a liar, the other one doesn't.

There is the SEED (Christ) of Israel and there is the seed (many descendants of Abraham). Which seed will be forever, and which will not? Is your point to prove this prophesy is for time that will be after the seventh trumpet sounds? If you are attempting to prove more time after the seventh trumpet sounds, your argument is with the Bible, for it clearly states that when the seventh trumpet begins to sound time shall be no more. I've already told you I believe the time that will end is the thousand symbolic years given the church on earth to build the Kingdom of heaven by proclaiming to the world the Gospel of salvation.

 

[DavidPT]

And I find the Premil interpretation of Revelation 20 to be absurd. I'm glad we've now established that we each find each other's interpretations to be absurd.

I have a question for you. As you know, Revelation 20:6 says that those who have part in the first resurrection are "blessed and holy" and the second death has no power over them. Do you believe that someone has to be bodily resurrected in order for the second death to not have power over them?

Do you believe the Bible teaches NOSAS or not? The fact you do, and if you are applying that to the here and now, meaning before one dies, that the 2nd death has no power over them, how can that remain true if they end up falling way instead?

Once someone that has been saved, and then physically dies, obviously the 2nd death has no power over them at that point. But the same can't be said if NOSAS is Biblical, because it would be pointless for the 2nd death to have no power over someone one minute, and the next minute it does. When I see the text saying the 2nd death has no power over those that have part in the resurrection, I take it to literally mean what it says, that not one single person who has part in the first resurrection, are excluded from the 2nd death having no power over them.

Amill and NOSAS throws a monkey wrench into that. Premill and NOSAS doesn't. The latter means one's eternal salvation has already been fully decided about them before the even have part in the first resurrection. Therefore, there is no such thing as anyone who has part in the first resurrection, that some of them can fall away after having part in it, that some of them, the 2nd death has no power over them one minute, but the next minute it does, meaning if they fall away after already having had part in the first resurrection.

How anyone of the NOSAS camp can think NOSAS is compatible with Amill, is still a mystery to me. And I even started a thread on the topic in the past.