Why do catholics pray to Mary

[Laestadian05]

Why do you think it’s right to pray to Mary and other saints? What Bible verse has gave you the right to that?

 

[DragonFox91]

They think it’s no different then you asking someone to pray for you or you talking to someone about your issues. They think because she (& the other canonized saints) are holy, she (& they) are worthy of praying to. They get it from tradition. They think tradition is on par w/ the Bible b/c after all the Bible comes from tradition.

IMO their prayers to Mary are a lot more than asking her to intercede for them or just talking to her like a priest or friend, but that's how they try to spin it.

 

[rturner76]

There are many different kinds of prayer. Prayers of intercession are the ones we pray to saints. It's not for them to bless us but to pray to God for us. "Holy Mary mother of God pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death."

 

[Lukaris]

There were a few writings that did not become part of the Bible but parts of them were regarded as truthful. A major example of this is the book of Enoch ( which is actually in the Bible of the ancient Ethiopian Church). There is an account of the intercession of saints & angels in Enoch 39

https://www.google.com/amp/s/book-ofenoch.com/chapter-39/?amp=1

which is related to what is accounted for in Revelation 8:1-6. The good woman of the Apocalypse in Revelation 12 is believed by many to be the Virgin Mary. It is things like this that form much of the idea of experiencing a sense of heaven & earth in the Sunday worship.

Info on book of Enoch
Book of Enoch - Wikipedia

 

[HTacianas]

Why do you think it’s right to pray to Mary and other saints? What Bible verse has gave you the right to that?

Prayers to the saints is one of the oldest traditions of Christianity. The earliest Christians, in knowing that the righteous saints and martyrs stood before the throne of God, began to gather at theirs graves to ask for their intercessions. There need not be a bible verse to support it as it is older than the bible. At least older than the new testament.

 

[The Liturgist]

Why do you think it’s right to pray to Mary and other saints? What Bible verse has gave you the right to that?

Hello, I’m not a Roman Catholic but I pray to Mary daily. As for what verses give me the right to do that, there is the Water into Wine incident in the Gospel of John, but most specifically, regarding the prayer commonly called the Hail Mary, this is directly based on the Magnificat (one of the three Evangelical Canticles in Luke chapter 1).

They think it’s no different then you asking someone to pray for you or you talking to someone about your issues. They think because she (& the other canonized saints) are holy, she (& they) are worthy of praying to. They get it from tradition. They think tradition is on par w/ the Bible b/c after all the Bible comes from tradition.

That’s untrue. Scripture is either the most important Tradition or the primary source of doctrine for Catholics, Orthodox and traditional Protestants (the difference between genuine Sola Scriptura (as opposed to Nuda Scriptura) the Roman Catholic Magisterium, and Orthodox Holy Tradition turns out to be very subtle) who pray to the Blessed Virgin Mary, which include but are not limited to High Church Anglicans and confessional Lutherans as @MarkRohfrietsch can attest (indeed Martin Luther said the older version of the Hail Mary according to Mark, and when it comes to Lutheranism he’s the most knowledgeable member on the forum I know).

IMO their prayers to Mary are a lot more than asking her to intercede for them or just talking to her like a priest or friend, but that's how they try to spin it.

That’s not correct either. While it is true that one simply prays with or asks for the intercession of other saints, who are worthy of veneration (doulia), in the specific case of the Blessed Virgin Mary, she is worthy of extreme veneration (hyperdoulia) as the Theotokos - the woman who gave birth to our Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ, thus facilitating the incarnation of God, and who was thus a mother to God in His assumed humanity.

However, worship and adoration (Latria) should only be offered to God the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. Asking for the intercessory prayer of the Blessed Virgin Mary, the other members of the Church Triumphant, and the Angelic host, does not constitute an act of worship.

 

[The Liturgist]

There were a few writings that did not become part of the Bible but parts of them were regarded as truthful. A major example of this is the book of Enoch ( which is actually in the Bible of the ancient Ethiopian Church). There is an account of the intercession of saints & angels in Enoch 39

https://www.google.com/amp/s/book-ofenoch.com/chapter-39/?amp=1

which is related to what is accounted for in Revelation 8:1-6. The good woman of the Apocalypse in Revelation 12 is believed by many to be the Virgin Mary. It is things like this that form much of the idea of experiencing a sense of heaven & earth in the Sunday worship.

Info on book of Enoch
Book of Enoch - Wikipedia

This is one of several reasons why I regard 1 Enoch as canonical, but the most important is the fact that the Epistle of St. Jude quotes it.

 

[public hermit]

We ask people to pray for us all the time. The faithful dead are not dead; why shouldn't they pray for us now? And who is to be honored more among the living dead than the Theotokos? I'm not Catholic, but I would not begrudge the Theotokos praying for me. Please, pray for me.

 

[public hermit]

@The Liturgist, you don't have to patronize me. Just say what is on your mind. You always have good things to say.

 

[The Liturgist]

@The Liturgist, you don't have to patronize me. Just say what is on your mind. You always have good things to say.

Forgive me, I did not intend to patronize you. I thought you were requesting prayers both from the Saints in Heaven and from the members who read your post and I was seeking to acknowledge that request.

As far as your post is concerned, I agree with it entirely, and I always enjoy reading what you write, so I am humbled in appreciation of the fact that you have enjoyed my comments.

 

[public hermit]

Forgive me, I did not intend to patronize you. I thought you were requesting prayers both from the Saints in Heaven and from the members who read your post and I was seeking to acknowledge that request.

As far as your post is concerned, I agree with it entirely, and I always enjoy reading what you write, so I am humbled in appreciation of the fact that you have enjoyed my comments.

I was and I am. But you always have so much insight. I was hoping you would comment, but alas, only prayers.

 

[Chris35]

Doesnt praying to saints defeat the whole point of Jesus?

14Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has ascended into heaven, f Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess. 15For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet he did not sin. 16Let us then approach God’s throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.

1Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we a have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand.

If we can now come to the throne of God because of what Jesus did for us, then wouldnt praying to saints because you are not holy enough be a form of blasphemy. Isnt it undoing the work of God?

God sends the most holy sacrafice to cover our sins, so that we can come and pray to him, and then we go and say that sacrafice isnt good enough, so we turn to past saints to pray for us instead.

 

[The Liturgist]

I was and I am. But you always have so much insight. I was hoping you would comment, but alas, only prayers.

Well I can’t offer any additional wisdom that your post lacks. Now if you had a question on this general theme which is my area of expertise, for example, if you wanted me to discuss the Prayer Rule of St. Seraphim of Sarov used primarily in the Russian Orthodox Church, which is conceptually vaguely similar to the Rosary, but without the mental imagination of the different mysteries (because that kind of visual imagination during prayer is not done in Eastern Orthodoxy), which is prayed on a special Lestovka (the leather counters used by Old Believers / Russian Old Rite Orthodox instead of the more common Prayer Rope), or if you wanted me to discuss the Little Office of the Blessed Virgin Mary, which along with the Office for the Dead, is an invariable form of prayers that can be used standalone, which follows the structure of the Divine Office, with Matins, Vespers and so on, but which is also frequently prayed in addition to the Divine Office by those Roman Catholic religious orders which still use the Traditional Latin Mass and the pre-Vatican II forms of the Divine Office, those are subjects I could deeply dive into.

By the way, if I might ask, do you have a particular interest in liturgical worship and liturgical texts?

 

[public hermit]

if you wanted me to discuss the Prayer Rule of St. Seraphim of Sarov used primarily in the Russian Orthodox Church, which is conceptually vaguely similar to the Rosary, but without the mental imagination of the different mysteries (because that kind of visual imagination during prayer is not done in Eastern Orthodoxy)

I'm definitely interested in any relation/intersection between prayer and liturgy. For instance, is the Prayer Rule of St. Seraphim related to hesychasm? Am I trying to bring together desperate practices in asking that question?

 

[The Liturgist]

Doesnt praying to saints defeat the whole point of Jesus?

No.

If we can now come to the throne of God because of what Jesus did for us, then wouldnt praying to saints because you are not holy enough be a form of blasphemy. Isnt it undoing the work of God?

We do not ask for the intercession of the saints in lieu of praying directly to God; indeed, the most commonly used prayers in Eastern Orthodoxy and Oriental Orthodoxy are “Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, Have Mercy on Me, a Sinner” “Kyrie eleison*” and the Lord’s Prayer.

God sends the most holy sacrafice to cover our sins, so that we can come and pray to him, and then we go and say that sacrafice isnt good enough, so we turn to past saints to pray for us instead.

If we actually did that, that is to say, prayed to the saints but not to God, that would be a serious error of worship. However, we do not do that; we pray directly to God, but we also ask the saints to pray for us, just as we frequently ask friends, relatives and in some cases, people unknown to us, to pray for us. Consider the Prayer Requests forum on CF.com, for example: asking for intercessory prayer from the saints operates on exactly the same principle, and just as it would be seriously wrong to have someone else pray for you exclusively, it would also be wrong to only pray to the saints, and I don’t know of anyone who does that.

By the way, it is because of God’s most holy Sacrifice which you mentioned that we are able to pray to the saints, since they remain spiritually alive in Heaven awaiting the resurrection, or in some cases abide bodily in the Heavenly realm, for example, St. Elias (Elijah) and the Blessed Virgin Mary.

*This is often translated to Lord Have Mercy, Gospodi Pomuli, or another vernacular or semi-vernacular phrase, although I myself regard the translation of Kyrie Eleison as somewhat redundant, however, I would not want to, for example, see the Russian and Ukrainian churches replace Gospodi Pomuli with the original Greek Kyrie Eleison, because aside from being a silly waste of time, it would also break all of the gorgeous liturgical music which assumes a certain number of syllables, and the Russian and Ukrainian churches are widely considered to have the most beautiful church music in the world.

 

[DragonFox91]

Hello, I’m not a Roman Catholic but I pray to Mary daily. As for what verses give me the right to do that, there is the Water into Wine incident in the Gospel of John, but most specifically, regarding the prayer commonly called the Hail Mary, this is directly based on the Magnificat (one of the three Evangelical Canticles in Luke chapter 1).



That’s untrue. Scripture is either the most important Tradition or the primary source of doctrine for Catholics, Orthodox and traditional Protestants (the difference between genuine Sola Scriptura (as opposed to Nuda Scriptura) the Roman Catholic Magisterium, and Orthodox Holy Tradition turns out to be very subtle) who pray to the Blessed Virgin Mary, which include but are not limited to High Church Anglicans and confessional Lutherans as @MarkRohfrietsch can attest (indeed Martin Luther said the older version of the Hail Mary according to Mark, and when it comes to Lutheranism he’s the most knowledgeable member on the forum I know).



That’s not correct either. While it is true that one simply prays with or asks for the intercession of other saints, who are worthy of veneration (doulia), in the specific case of the Blessed Virgin Mary, she is worthy of extreme veneration (hyperdoulia) as the Theotokos - the woman who gave birth to our Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ, thus facilitating the incarnation of God, and who was thus a mother to God in His assumed humanity.

However, worship and adoration (Latria) should only be offered to God the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. Asking for the intercessory prayer of the Blessed Virgin Mary, the other members of the Church Triumphant, and the Angelic host, does not constitute an act of worship.

Please give sample prayer you say to Mary. Thanks.

 

[The Liturgist]

I'm definitely interested in any relation/intersection between prayer and liturgy. For instance, is the Prayer Rule of St. Seraphim related to hesychasm? Am I trying to bring together desperate practices in asking that question?

The prayer rule of St. Seraphim of Sarov probably is related in some respects to Hesychasm, since it was the main rule of prayer he adhered to and which he taught to the nuns at a convent that opened near his hermitage. The main difference is that it consists of the Orthodox version of the Hail Mary (which is very similar to the Roman Catholic version) rather than the Jesus Prayer. Interestingly Coptic monks traditionally memorized the Psalter and recite a large section of it in the fixed portion of the Divine Office, although due to ecumenical contact with the Eastern Orthodox, and the well known work of Fr. Lazarus el Antony, a convert to the Coptic Orthodox Church from Australia, who was a monk at a Serbian Orthodox monastery in Australia before joining the Coptic church, the Jesus Prayer has become increasingly popular in their ranks. I do not know how Syriac Orthodox, Ethiopian Orthodox or Armenian monks view it.

However, hesychasm normally involves the interiorization of the Jesus Prayer “Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner,” so that it becomes the unceasing prayer of the heart. This practice sometimes leads to people being granted a view of the Uncreated Light of Tabor. However, it is extremely important, indeed, it cannot be overstated how important this is, that anyone pursuing Hesychasm do so under the guidance of a spiritual director. In general its the sort of thing best accomplished in a cenobitic monastery. This is because, I have been told, there is some danger in falling into what the Russian Orthodox call Prelest, meaning spiritual delusion, if one attempts to achieve the various spiritual victories involved in Hesychasm by oneself. The devil hates it when we pray, and especially when we pray without ceasing, and especially the prayers of Hesychasts, and will strive ferociously to stop them, and because of the real danger, that is why Hesychasm itself should happen, at a minimum, under the guidance of an experienced elder who is himself a Hesychast, or better yet, at a monastery where Hesychasm is actually embraced and plays an important part in community life.

The aforementioned Fr. Lazarus is a hermit attached to and supported by St. Anthony’s Monastery. He lives in a cave a short distance from the Cave of St. Anthony, which now contains a chapel where he celebrates the Divine Liturgy nightly. He is the only monk who the Hegumen (Abbot) of St. Anthony’s has given a blessing to live as a hermit in the caves, because of the unique dangers of solitary monasticism. As an example of the dangers faced by hermits, one night while walking back to his cave he was startled by the image of a monstrous threatening bear; he had seen such apparitions before, as have most seasoned monks, but on this occasion he forgot to say the Jesus Prayer or the Hail Mary or to make the Sign of the Cross, and fell off a ledge, breaking several bones including his cheek. When he was found by another monk the next morning, he was fortunately still alive, and was airlifted by helicopter to a major hospital in Cairo, and was able to make a full recovery, so clearly, God was looking out for him through his Guardian Angel, however, it was a dangerous situation and it illustrates the dangers faced even by experienced monks.

Likewise, if you read the immensely engaging Life of St. Anthony, the definitive biography composed by his contemporary St. Athanasius of Alexandria, the same guy who defended the Christian faith against Arianism at Nicaea and for the rest of his life, enduring long periods of exile when the Arians managed to convert the Roman Emperors to their cause (there would not be a Christian emperor from roughly 340 AD, the death of St. Constantine, until approximately 380 AD, when St. Theodosius succeeded the last Arian emperor, Valens), you will read harrowing accounts of the demonic attacks waged against St. Anthony as he worked to retire to the desert and pray. Most people would have given up.

However, I should also state, lest there be any confusion, that simply saying the Jesus Prayer or the Hail Mary according to a prayer rule, using a prayer rope or Lestovka is completely fine and safe, and is an exceedingly good spiritual practice. St. Ignatius Brianchaninov, a 19th century Russian abbot who later became a bishop (this is a normal career progression in the Orthodox churches, because almost all bishops are monastics) wrote two interesting books on the subject: The Arena, which is a guide to spiritual warfare written for the benefit of monastics, and On The Prayer of Jesus, which is a guide to the Jesus Prayer specifically written for use by the laity. Metropolitan Kallistos Ware has also delivered numerous lectures on the subject.

The Jesus Prayer has even jumped the fence into other denominations; aside from the obvious case of Byzantine Rite Catholics using it, there is also a recent and increasingly popular Anglican Rosary, which is focused on the Jesus Prayer rather than the Hail Mary. Of course many Anglo Catholics have conventional rosaries and pray them according to the Roman Catholic style, and also given the increasing interest in all things Orthodox among many Anglicans (to the extent that there are now Byzantine style icons adorning the columns in the Apse of Westminster Abbey), one can rest assured that some Anglicans are also using prayer ropes, and possibly even the Rule of St. Seraphim of Sarov.

The special lestovka used for the prayer of St. Seraphim of Sarov features two or four sets of fifty spacers, one for each Hail Mary one is supposed to pray. A traditional Lestovka is divided into multiple sections, one for the Jesus Prayer, one that is used to count the number of Kyrie Eleisons prayed during the Divine Office, one to count the number of times one says the Prayer of St. Ephraim the Syrian during liturgical services in Lent, and I believe one other section. I have three conventional Lestovkas, two prayer ropes and one very nice leather Lestovka configured for the Prayer Rule of St. Seraphim of Sarov. This I bought at a church sale at All Saints ROCOR in Las Vegas for something like $10, which was quite a good deal, as I have seen them go for $100. My Lestovkas I bought, along with corresponding liturgical books, from The Church of the Nativity in Erie, Pennsylvania, which is a Russian Old Rite parish under ROCOR, the only one of its kind in the US (although in Woodburn, Oregon, there is a community of priestless Old Believers whose churches feature an iconostasis but no altar and no doors for passing through it, since the priestless Old Believers believe the last legitimate bishop died around 1700 and consequently, there are no valid priests alive anywhere; as a result, they limit themselves to Baptism and the Hours and the Typika (a service like Ante Communion in the Anglican Church or a Missa Sicca in the Roman Catholic Church, which consists of the hymns and scripture lessons of the Divine Liturgy, but with no Eucharist, since a priest is required for that).

Here is an article on the Lestovka, which will also link you to other relevant information from this post: Lestovka - Wikipedia

I hope you found this post informative and helpful @public hermit . God bless you!

 

[public hermit]

The prayer rule of St. Seraphim of Sarov probably is related in some respects to Hesychasm, since it was the main rule of prayer he adhered to and which he taught to the nuns at a convent that opened near his hermitage. The main difference is that it consists of the Orthodox version of the Hail Mary (which is very similar to the Roman Catholic version) rather than the Jesus Prayer. Interestingly Coptic monks traditionally memorized the Psalter and recite a large section of it in the fixed portion of the Divine Office, although due to ecumenical contact with the Eastern Orthodox, and the well known work of Fr. Lazarus el Antony, a convert to the Coptic Orthodox Church from Australia, who was a monk at a Serbian Orthodox monastery in Australia before joining the Coptic church, the Jesus Prayer has become increasingly popular in their ranks. I do not know how Syriac Orthodox, Ethiopian Orthodox or Armenian monks view it.

However, hesychasm normally involves the interiorization of the Jesus Prayer “Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner,” so that it becomes the unceasing prayer of the heart. This practice sometimes leads to people being granted a view of the Uncreated Light of Tabor. However, it is extremely important, indeed, it cannot be overstated how important this is, that anyone pursuing Hesychasm do so under the guidance of a spiritual director. In general its the sort of thing best accomplished in a cenobitic monastery. This is because, I have been told, there is some danger in falling into what the Russian Orthodox call Prelest, meaning spiritual delusion, if one attempts to achieve the various spiritual victories involved in Hesychasm by oneself. The devil hates it when we pray, and especially when we pray without ceasing, and especially the prayers of Hesychasts, and will strive ferociously to stop them, and because of the real danger, that is why Hesychasm itself should happen, at a minimum, under the guidance of an experienced elder who is himself a Hesychast, or better yet, at a monastery where Hesychasm is actually embraced and plays an important part in community life.

The aforementioned Fr. Lazarus is a hermit attached to and supported by St. Anthony’s Monastery. He lives in a cave a short distance from the Cave of St. Anthony, which now contains a chapel where he celebrates the Divine Liturgy nightly. He is the only monk who the Hegumen (Abbot) of St. Anthony’s has given a blessing to live as a hermit in the caves, because of the unique dangers of solitary monasticism. As an example of the dangers faced by hermits, one night while walking back to his cave he was startled by the image of a monstrous threatening bear; he had seen such apparitions before, as have most seasoned monks, but on this occasion he forgot to say the Jesus Prayer or the Hail Mary or to make the Sign of the Cross, and fell off a ledge, breaking several bones including his cheek. When he was found by another monk the next morning, he was fortunately still alive, and was airlifted by helicopter to a major hospital in Cairo, and was able to make a full recovery, so clearly, God was looking out for him through his Guardian Angel, however, it was a dangerous situation and it illustrates the dangers faced even by experienced monks.

Likewise, if you read the immensely engaging Life of St. Anthony, the definitive biography composed by his contemporary St. Athanasius of Alexandria, the same guy who defended the Christian faith against Arianism at Nicaea and for the rest of his life, enduring long periods of exile when the Arians managed to convert the Roman Emperors to their cause (there would not be a Christian emperor from roughly 340 AD, the death of St. Constantine, until approximately 380 AD, when St. Theodosius succeeded the last Arian emperor, Valens), you will read harrowing accounts of the demonic attacks waged against St. Anthony as he worked to retire to the desert and pray. Most people would have given up.

However, I should also state, lest there be any confusion, that simply saying the Jesus Prayer or the Hail Mary according to a prayer rule, using a prayer rope or Lestovka is completely fine and safe, and is an exceedingly good spiritual practice. St. Ignatius Brianchaninov, a 19th century Russian abbot who later became a bishop (this is a normal career progression in the Orthodox churches, because almost all bishops are monastics) wrote two interesting books on the subject: The Arena, which is a guide to spiritual warfare written for the benefit of monastics, and On The Prayer of Jesus, which is a guide to the Jesus Prayer specifically written for use by the laity. Metropolitan Kallistos Ware has also delivered numerous lectures on the subject.

The Jesus Prayer has even jumped the fence into other denominations; aside from the obvious case of Byzantine Rite Catholics using it, there is also a recent and increasingly popular Anglican Rosary, which is focused on the Jesus Prayer rather than the Hail Mary. Of course many Anglo Catholics have conventional rosaries and pray them according to the Roman Catholic style, and also given the increasing interest in all things Orthodox among many Anglicans (to the extent that there are now Byzantine style icons adorning the columns in the Apse of Westminster Abbey), one can rest assured that some Anglicans are also using prayer ropes, and possibly even the Rule of St. Seraphim of Sarov.

The special lestovka used for the prayer of St. Seraphim of Sarov features two or four sets of fifty spacers, one for each Hail Mary one is supposed to pray. A traditional Lestovka is divided into multiple sections, one for the Jesus Prayer, one that is used to count the number of Kyrie Eleisons prayed during the Divine Office, one to count the number of times one says the Prayer of St. Ephraim the Syrian during liturgical services in Lent, and I believe one other section. I have three conventional Lestovkas, two prayer ropes and one very nice leather Lestovka configured for the Prayer Rule of St. Seraphim of Sarov. This I bought at a church sale at All Saints ROCOR in Las Vegas for something like $10, which was quite a good deal, as I have seen them go for $100. My Lestovkas I bought, along with corresponding liturgical books, from The Church of the Nativity in Erie, Pennsylvania, which is a Russian Old Rite parish under ROCOR, the only one of its kind in the US (although in Woodburn, Oregon, there is a community of priestless Old Believers whose churches feature an iconostasis but no altar and no doors for passing through it, since the priestless Old Believers believe the last legitimate bishop died around 1700 and consequently, there are no valid priests alive anywhere; as a result, they limit themselves to Baptism and the Hours and the Typika (a service like Ante Communion in the Anglican Church or a Missa Sicca in the Roman Catholic Church, which consists of the hymns and scripture lessons of the Divine Liturgy, but with no Eucharist, since a priest is required for that).

Here is an article on the Lestovka, which will also link you to other relevant information from this post: Lestovka - Wikipedia

I hope you found this post informative and helpful @public hermit . God bless you!

That's fascinating. Thank you. I've never read one of your posts where I didn't learn something new. God bless you!

 

[BNR32FAN]

Why do you think it’s right to pray to Mary and other saints? What Bible verse has gave you the right to that?

What Bible verse has forbidden it? I don’t practice it myself but at the same time I understand their reasoning behind it which is understandable. They believe the Saints are very much alive and well with The Father and are able to offer prayers of supplication on their behalf. I don’t see anything wrong with the practice I just don’t practice it because I see no need to pray to Mary or the Saints since I can pray directly to God.

 

[The Liturgist]

Please give sample prayer you say to Mary. Thanks.

I would prefer not to discuss it here as I regard the Blessed Virgin Mary as the holiest of humans conceived with a human father, and I don’t wish to see any criticism of her or the prayers I offer thereof. If you are sincerely interested in learning about Marian devotion and what constitutes an appropriate prayer to the Theotokos, please PM me.

I must stress that we do not worship Our Lady; we venerate her, indeed, we venerate her more than anyone else, but we do not offer worship or adoration, which is an important distinction, for these are due only to God, and the Blessed Virgin recognizes that.

Now, there are some cults that actually worshipped Mary, or continue to do so. Two spring to mind: the fourth century Collyridians, documented by St. Epiphanius of Salamis in his fourth century encyclopedia of heresies, the Panarion, or Medicine Chest. That group is obviously long extinct, but more recently there is a group that appeared in the 1970s in Spain at El Palmar de Troya, the Christian Palmarian Church of the Carmelites of the Holy Face, also known as the Palmarian Catholic Church. Initially, they were a group associated with the Traditional Latin Mass, and believed based on visions by one of their two cofounders that Pope Paul VI was being held captive and had been replaced by an impersonator.

The madness got worse however, when the “visionary” declared himself Pope Gregory XVII, and began departing substantially from normative Christian doctrine, while imposing a strict cult condition and exploiting members for free labor. Meanwhile, again, due to revelations, he declared that the Blessed Virgin Mary is also present in the Eucharist, which is not the case in Roman Catholic, Orthodox or traditional Protestant theology (for example, that of the Lutherans, who do believe our Lord is physically present in the Eucharist). He also stripped the Mass down to an extremely brief, minimalistic service and ordained an extremely large number of bishops, each of whom had to serve mass at least daily, and despite its relatively large size, their ornate basillica in El Palmar de Troya would still have become cramped. The people in the cult became sleep deprived.

Later, he began working on rewriting the Bible to reinforce the bizarre Palmarian doctrines, before his death in 2004, when he was succeeded by Pope Peter II, who was succeeded around 2010 by a particularly nasty character, Pope Gregory XVIII, who later, to his credit, resigned, declaring the cult to be a fraud; their current primate is Pope Peter III.

The cult has become quite notorious in Europe, due to its financial exploitation of members and its practice of Scientology-style shunning. Fortunately, its membership has declined dramatically from what it once was, much like what has happened to Christian Science (which is far larger, and probably more dangerous, due to the fact that Christian Science teaches its members to avoid using doctors and medicine, and to instead pay a “Christian Science Practitioner” to pray for you. Jim Henson was raised in that cult, and while he did leave it, many believe it left in him a deeply ingrained fear of doctors, and this is believed to be the reason why he did not seek medical treatment for the sore throat (a strep infection) which would ultimately kill him at a tragically young age in the early 1990s.