Will the unholy enter the Kingdom of Heaven?

[ByTheSpirit]

Simple question, will the unholy enter the Kingdom of Heaven?

 

[CallofChrist]

Hebrews 12:14 - Strive for peace with everyone, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord.

God has to sanctify us or we wouldn't make it.

 

[Petros2015]

well if you put it THAT way...
It's a good way to put it.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Hebrews 12:14 - Strive for peace with everyone, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord.

God has to sanctify us or we wouldn't make it.

Ok. I agree with this but a follow on question if I may.

Does God sanctify a person once for all time, or are they sanctified as they walk with him?

 

[CallofChrist]

Ok. I agree with this but a follow on question if I may.

Does God sanctify a person once for all time, or are they sanctified as they walk with him?

that's a good question.
I know that we are considered righteous because of the righteousness of Christ upon our conversion, but as far as I understand, sanctification is as much a process as it is a state of being.

I could be wrong, but I am curious as to what you and others think. This is definitely an interesting topic and is proving to be more than a simple question

 

[ViaCrucis]

Simple question, will the unholy enter the Kingdom of Heaven?

Strictly speaking yes, since you and I are sinners and we are, by the grace of God, already entered God's kingdom by His grace.

The kingdom of God isn't a place one goes to, it's the reality that God is King in Jesus; which is already in part; as Christ our Lord reigns at the right hand of the Father, having received all power and authority, and everlasting kingdom. And, in fullness when He comes again, the dead are raised, and there is Final Judgment, and the renewal of all things: new heavens and new earth.

We have entered into God's kingdom through faith, by the grace of God; which we have received in God's Sacrament of Holy Baptism. Which is why we read that, even now, we are seated with Christ in heavenly places. We live and reign with Christ now, by the Spirit, by His grace, through faith.

However all who are born again have been clothed with the holiness and righteousness of Jesus Christ imputed to them; and thus we unclean sinners are clothed in the holiness and justice of Jesus Christ and present before God justified, holy. For this reason we are called saints of God, the holy ones of God; not on account of our own holiness, but the holiness we have received as grace. And we are called, in this life, to devote ourselves to holiness, righteousness, and good works for the sake of our neighbor. I.e. carrying our cross as disciples of Jesus.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Guojing]

Simple question, will the unholy enter the Kingdom of Heaven?

The kingdom of God that is preached by Paul is different from the kingdom of heaven that was the main topic in the book of Matthew.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Strictly speaking yes, since you and I are sinners and we are, by the grace of God, already entered God's kingdom by His grace.

The kingdom of God isn't a place one goes to, it's the reality that God is King in Jesus; which is already in part; as Christ our Lord reigns at the right hand of the Father, having received all power and authority, and everlasting kingdom. And, in fullness when He comes again, the dead are raised, and there is Final Judgment, and the renewal of all things: new heavens and new earth.

We have entered into God's kingdom through faith, by the grace of God; which we have received in God's Sacrament of Holy Baptism. Which is why we read that, even now, we are seated with Christ in heavenly places. We live and reign with Christ now, by the Spirit, by His grace, through faith.

However all who are born again have been clothed with the holiness and righteousness of Jesus Christ imputed to them; and thus we unclean sinners are clothed in the holiness and justice of Jesus Christ and present before God justified, holy. For this reason we are called saints of God, the holy ones of God; not on account of our own holiness, but the holiness we have received as grace. And we are called, in this life, to devote ourselves to holiness, righteousness, and good works for the sake of our neighbor. I.e. carrying our cross as disciples of Jesus.

-CryptoLutheran

These are actually really good points and discussion starters.

It seems that you are a "Once saved always saved" believer. Is that accurate? Not asking to be pesky, I legitimately would like to know for conversation purposes.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

The kingdom of God that is preached by Paul is different from the kingdom of heaven that was the main topic in the book of Matthew.

How so?

 

[ViaCrucis]

These are actually really good points and discussion starters.

It seems that you are a "Once saved always saved" believer. Is that accurate? Not asking to be pesky, I legitimately would like to know for conversation purposes.

I'm not. Lutherans reject "Once saved always saved", which is historically a Reformed peculiarity. A person can become apostate, they can deny, reject, and walk away and fully abandon everything they have received in Jesus. What we would insist on is that our salvation has nothing to do with our works or performance--it's always about faith (which is extra nos, from outside of ourselves as the gift of God). But if we reject our faith, then we reject everything. Without faith, there's nothing; faith alone receives the promises of God--hence Sola Fide.

Our assurance is found in God's promises, and faith holds to those promises. Without faith, there's no assurance.

I actually am of the position that the Reformed doctrine here actually hurts and destroys our confidence and assurance of salvation; because it requires one to claim that the one who falls away never had faith--and that doesn't bode well for any of us--if we could be deceived into thinking we have faith when we do not--and that we aren't really saved in spite of our faith and Baptism etc--then nobody can have assurance. For any one of us has a 50/50 chance of either a "True Christian" or an eternally condemned reprobate: regardless of our present faith (which may just be an illusion in our head, and not real faith anyway).

That's not assurance, that's playing the lottery.

-CrptoLutheran

 

[ByTheSpirit]

I'm not. Lutherans reject "Once saved always saved", which is historically a Reformed peculiarity. A person can become apostate, they can deny, reject, and walk away and fully abandon everything they have received in Jesus. What we would insist on is that our salvation has nothing to do with our works or performance--it's always about faith (which is extra nos, from outside of ourselves as the gift of God). But if we reject our faith, then we reject everything. Without faith, there's nothing; faith alone receives the promises of God--hence Sola Fide.

Our assurance is found in God's promises, and faith holds to those promises. Without faith, there's no assurance.

I actually am of the position that the Reformed doctrine here actually hurts and destroys our confidence and assurance of salvation; because it requires one to claim that the one who falls away never had faith--and that doesn't bode well for any of us--if we could be deceived into thinking we have faith when we do not--and that we aren't really saved in spite of our faith and Baptism etc--then nobody can have assurance. For any one of us has a 50/50 chance of either a "True Christian" or an eternally condemned reprobate: regardless of our present faith (which may just be an illusion in our head, and not real faith anyway).

That's not assurance, that's playing the lottery.

-CrptoLutheran

Interesting, I misread you. Thanks for the explanation.

 

[Guojing]

How so?

When the term “the kingdom of God” appears in the Bible, it is a general reference to God’s domain, the realm of His influence (the righteous world system, Christians, and heaven). This term can apply both to redeemed Israel and the Church the Body of Christ.

The phrase “the kingdom of God” is in contradistinction to the realm in which Satan and his cohorts operate (the evil world system, lost [unregenerate] mankind, hell, the lake of fire, fallen angels, et cetera). A person enters “the kingdom of God” when God rescues/saves him or her from Satan’s realm—having sins forgiven, being declared righteous before God, fellowship with God, able to participate in His will, not going to hell anymore, and so on. You can refer to Matthew 21:31, Luke 17:21, and Colossians 1:13.

Now, the other term, “the kingdom of heaven,” goes back to a concept first introduced when Moses wrote about “the days of heaven upon the earth” (Deuteronomy 11:21). Moses referred to the day when God’s earthly kingdom would be established through Israel. Companion passages are Job 19:25-27, Isaiah chapter 11, Isaiah chapter 33, Isaiah chapter 35, Isaiah chapter 61, et cetera. There would be no sickness and the curse of sin would be lifted. It would literally be heaven on Earth!

All of God’s saints would be bodily resurrected to enter that kingdom. In that day, the God of Heaven would have His kingdom present on Earth for all to see. It would be a literal, physical, visible earthly kingdom, modeled after the reigns of King David and King Solomon. The Prophet Daniel, when interpreting King Nebuchadnezzar’s dream, said in Daniel 2:44: “And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.”

This is yet future, dear friend. Jesus Christ is coming again to destroy all of this world’s evil governments and He will establish His righteous kingdom on this planet!

 

[Lukaris]

I voted, “no” but there are different views on who are the ungodly. The Lord testifies the ungodly will not be saved per John 5:22-30 ( etc.).

The Christian godly being those saved by grace ( Ephesians 2:8-10) & believed in the Lord, & strove to keep His commandments unto death ( Colossians 1 etc,).

Some believe in total depravity and that whatever a person does in life is automatically devoid of God based understandings of ( for ex.) Romans 1, Romans 2, Romans 3.

Others believe that in Romans 2 God works with the individual conscience and determines that some otherwise did good ( Romans 2:11-16), did not blaspheme the Holy Spirit ( Matthew 12:30-32) according to His determination ( Romans 9:15-18). ( basically according to the light given them).

 

[BNR32FAN]

Ok. I agree with this but a follow on question if I may.

Does God sanctify a person once for all time, or are they sanctified as they walk with him?

Sanctification is a process that we won’t complete in this life. Luckily for us we don’t have to be sanctified to be saved but we will be perfected before we enter Heaven.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Strictly speaking yes, since you and I are sinners and we are, by the grace of God, already entered God's kingdom by His grace.

The kingdom of God isn't a place one goes to, it's the reality that God is King in Jesus; which is already in part; as Christ our Lord reigns at the right hand of the Father, having received all power and authority, and everlasting kingdom. And, in fullness when He comes again, the dead are raised, and there is Final Judgment, and the renewal of all things: new heavens and new earth.

We have entered into God's kingdom through faith, by the grace of God; which we have received in God's Sacrament of Holy Baptism. Which is why we read that, even now, we are seated with Christ in heavenly places. We live and reign with Christ now, by the Spirit, by His grace, through faith.

However all who are born again have been clothed with the holiness and righteousness of Jesus Christ imputed to them; and thus we unclean sinners are clothed in the holiness and justice of Jesus Christ and present before God justified, holy. For this reason we are called saints of God, the holy ones of God; not on account of our own holiness, but the holiness we have received as grace. And we are called, in this life, to devote ourselves to holiness, righteousness, and good works for the sake of our neighbor. I.e. carrying our cross as disciples of Jesus.

-CryptoLutheran

In John 14 Jesus told His apostles “I go and prepare a place for you”.

 

[ViaCrucis]

In John 14 Jesus told His apostles “I go and prepare a place for you”.

Yes He does. And He also says, "That where I am, you will be also." and also, "See, I am with you always, even until the end of the age" in Matthew 28.

-CryptoLutheran.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Sanctification is a process that we won’t complete in this life. Luckily for us we don’t have to be sanctified to be saved but we will be perfected before we enter Heaven.

I agree that in this form we will never be completed in sanctification. But I'm curious what your response would be to the following?

16So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17For the flesh craves what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are opposed to each other, so that you do not do what you want. 18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.19The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity, and debauchery; 20idolatry and sorcery; hatred, discord, jealousy, and rage; rivalries, divisions, factions, 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law.24Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25Since we live by the Spirit, let us walk in step with the Spirit.

Do you think that a person can begin to walk by the Spirit, then turn from that back to their former life and still inherit God's Kingdom if they continue on in an unrepentant lifestyle?

 

[ByTheSpirit]

I voted, “no” but there are different views on who are the ungodly. The Lord testifies the ungodly will not be saved per John 5:22-30 ( etc.).

The Christian godly being those saved by grace ( Ephesians 2:8-10) & believed in the Lord, & strove to keep His commandments unto death ( Colossians 1 etc,).

Some believe in total depravity and that whatever a person does in life is automatically devoid of God based understandings of ( for ex.) Romans 1, Romans 2, Romans 3.

Others believe that in Romans 2 God works with the individual conscience and determines that some otherwise did good ( Romans 2:11-16), did not blaspheme the Holy Spirit ( Matthew 12:30-32) according to His determination ( Romans 9:15-18). ( basically according to the light given them).

I probably could have put more options up there, but I wanted to keep it relatively simple as I'm sure there are a variety of responses.

I've not met many Orthodox Christians, so I'm curious in your "circle" do you view our salvation as a one time fits all deal? Like I say a prayer and I'm saved no matter what. Or as a continual walking with God that even if I stumble and fall, if I should get back up and keep going with him he will guard me?

That's a horrible analogy so I apologize but it's the best I can muster at the moment.

 

[Mark Quayle]

that's a good question.
I know that we are considered righteous because of the righteousness of Christ upon our conversion, but as far as I understand, sanctification is as much a process as it is a state of being.

I could be wrong, but I am curious as to what you and others think. This is definitely an interesting topic and is proving to be more than a simple question

The Bible doesn't care much about our terminology. We tend to want to use one word to mean one thing, but it doesn't always.

Also, keep in mind, if we think our sins are forgiven, if we don't continue to pursue holiness, we have reason to believe our sins are not forgiven. We MUST not continue in sin.

 

[Lukaris]

I probably could have put more options up there, but I wanted to keep it relatively simple as I'm sure there are a variety of responses.

I've not met many Orthodox Christians, so I'm curious in your "circle" do you view our salvation as a one time fits all deal? Like I say a prayer and I'm saved no matter what. Or as a continual walking with God that even if I stumble and fall, if I should get back up and keep going with him he will guard me?

That's a horrible analogy so I apologize but it's the best I can muster at the moment.

A continual walking with God I believe. What St. Paul says in Colossians 1:10-12, Colossians 1:23 etc.

I believe your question is to the point and best kept that way. The options are just what you say with some variations among Christians. I also want to say that I would not say to a non Christian just be a good person and all is ok. I just believe God has a plan for those HE knew who did right based on the light given them.