Does determinism really negate free will?

partinobodycular

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It also isn't justice, and it isn't a replacement for retributive justice
But then again maybe those aren't the things that society should be looking for in the first place.

In fact maybe they're the problem.
 
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Neogaia777

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@FrumiousBandersnatch

I'm still wondering if you will just maybe come out and maybe just plainly answer/say that the entire universe (or this physical reality, etc) is all deterministic, etc...? And could perhaps maybe also explain why you maybe think that maybe, etc...?

You mentioned the laws of physics for example... So what about the laws of physics leads you to think, (or else otherwise believe/suspect, etc), that the universe is deterministic, etc...?

Do you think everything above the level of the atom (right now) can be mathematically known/predicted right now, etc...? Or at least maybe could be at least potentially maybe, etc...?

And then also again, what also makes you maybe think that maybe, etc...?

God Bless!
 
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Neogaia777

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@FrumiousBandersnatch

I'm still wondering if you will just maybe come out and maybe just plainly answer/say that the entire universe (or this physical reality, etc) is all deterministic, etc...? And could perhaps maybe also explain why you maybe think that maybe, etc...?

You mentioned the laws of physics for example... So what about the laws of physics leads you to think, (or else otherwise believe/suspect, etc), that the universe is deterministic, etc...?

Do you think everything above the level of the atom (right now) can be mathematically known/predicted right now, etc...? Or at least maybe could be at least potentially maybe, etc...?

And then also again, what also makes you maybe think that maybe, etc...?

God Bless!
@FrumiousBandersnatch

I have a feeling that both you and I are of the same kind of mind about this subject, but I also suspect you might be holding back because you don't want to have any other kinds of disagreements with your other more atheist friends on here also, etc, and I not only don't want you to hold back, but I even more especially so don't want you holding back just because of that, etc...

God Bless!
 
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Kylie

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Do you think everything above the level of the atom (right now) can be mathematically known/predicted right now, etc...? Or at least maybe could be at least potentially maybe, etc...?

I can't speak for Bandersnatch, but I don't see how that's possible. It suggests that there is some boundary which prevents subatomic phenomena from affecting things in the macro world. Brownian motion is, I believe, an example which contradicts that idea.

If everything above the level of the atom can be determined mathematically (even just in principle), then the subatomic can not have any influence at all on the macro scale. And we know that isn't the case.
 
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Neogaia777

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I can't speak for Bandersnatch, but I don't see how that's possible. It suggests that there is some boundary which prevents subatomic phenomena from affecting things in the macro world. Brownian motion is, I believe, an example which contradicts that idea.

If everything above the level of the atom can be determined mathematically (even just in principle), then the subatomic can not have any influence at all on the macro scale. And we know that isn't the case.
I said "right now" because we don't yet have the correct math for the subatomic levels right now, because I think that even when we do, we will discover that it is deterministic as well, and dictates the behavior of atoms, which we already know behave deterministically right now as well, etc, and we have the math for that, math that will also work for everything above it, it's just incredibly complex, and there is a lot to calculate, and a lot of information to figure out/give/provide, etc...

Do atoms dicate molecules, and do molecules dicate cells, and do cells, which I have heard is the first and lowest level of consciousness, dicate us and our actions and decisions and choices, etc...?

Can a cell "choose", etc...? Or has that behavior already been decided by the molecules and atoms it is made up of already, etc...? And then, do we really "choose", etc...? Or has that already been decided for us by what we are made up and what is going on with all of it/that already, etc...?

God Bless!
 
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Neogaia777

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I said "right now" because we don't yet have the correct math for the subatomic levels right now, because I think that even when we do, we will discover that it is deterministic as well, and dictates the behavior of atoms, which we already know behave deterministically right now as well, etc, and we have the math for that, math that will also work for everything above it, it's just incredibly complex, and there is a lot to calculate, and a lot of information to figure out/give/provide, etc...

Do atoms dicate molecules, and do molecules dicate cells, and do cells, which I have heard is the first and lowest level of consciousness, dicate us and our actions and decisions and choices, etc...?

Can a cell "choose", etc...? Or has that behavior already been decided by the molecules and atoms it is made up of already, etc...? And then, do we really "choose", etc...? Or has that already been decided for us by what we are made up and what is going on with all of it/that already, etc...?

God Bless!
@Kylie

Right now, we are trying to figure out the subatomic world with the math that we currently right now have, but it's not working very well, and we are learning that we need a whole new and entirely different math for it, which we don't currently have right now, but are still in the process of figuring out and/or discovering and/or finding/figuring out right now, which is why I have chosen to leave that level of it alone for right now, and go with what we currently already know, which is enough to be sufficient for determining determinism in my view, etc...

God Bless!
 
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zippy2006

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But then again maybe those aren't the things that society should be looking for in the first place.

In fact maybe they're the problem.

This is a more honest approach than dressing up rehabilitation in the disguise of justice, but I think it is also flawed a la Lewis' article referenced in post #422.
 
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Kylie

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...because I think that even when we do, we will discover that it is deterministic as well...

Do you have any actual evidence to support your position that subatomic events are deterministic? Or is it just supposition?
 
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Kylie

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@Kylie

Right now, we are trying to figure out the subatomic world with the math that we currently right now have, but it's not working very well, and we are learning that we need a whole new and entirely different math for it, which we don't currently have right now, but are still in the process of figuring out and/or discovering and/or finding/figuring out right now, which is why I have chosen to leave that level of it alone for right now, and go with what we currently already know, which is enough to be sufficient for determining determinism in my view, etc...

God Bless!

If we don't know if subatomic events are deterministic, but we accept that they can affect macro events, then I don't see how you can reach the conclusion that everything is deterministic. To be intellectually honest, you should at least hold the position, "I don't have enough information to say one way or the other."
 
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Neogaia777

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Do you have any actual evidence to support your position that subatomic events are deterministic? Or is it just supposition?
I don't see how one level, or all other levels, could be deterministic, and not what makes them up not be also deterministic in some fashion as well, etc...?

But right now, no one has hardly any solid proof of anything on subatomic level yet, because we don't even have the correct math yet, as I already tried to explain, etc, so it is all highly theoretical right now, and many have conflicting or contradictory theories/ideas on that level right now, because we don't even have the right math yet that can make them agree yet, etc...

But it is my theory that, when we do, we will find it all behaving very deterministically, etc, because all else thus far or so far is, so how can it also not be, etc...

God Bless!
 
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Neogaia777

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If we don't know if subatomic events are deterministic, but we accept that they can affect macro events, then I don't see how you can reach the conclusion that everything is deterministic. To be intellectually honest, you should at least hold the position, "I don't have enough information to say one way or the other."
See my post to you just now.

How can everything on one level, like with atoms, all be and behave and all act deterministically, or in a very deterministic fasion, and not that also which makes up it be or not be also, etc...?

God Bless!
 
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Neogaia777

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I said "right now" because we don't yet have the correct math for the subatomic levels right now, because I think that even when we do, we will discover that it is deterministic as well, and dictates the behavior of atoms, which we already know behave deterministically right now as well, etc, and we have the math for that, math that will also work for everything above it, it's just incredibly complex, and there is a lot to calculate, and a lot of information to figure out/give/provide, etc...

Do atoms dicate molecules, and do molecules dicate cells, and do cells, which I have heard is the first and lowest level of consciousness, dicate us and our actions and decisions and choices, etc...?

Can a cell "choose", etc...? Or has that behavior already been decided by the molecules and atoms it is made up of already, etc...? And then, do we really "choose", etc...? Or has that already been decided for us by what we are made up and what is going on with all of it/that already, etc...?

God Bless!
Let's take the life of one cell for a moment, which is supposed to be the first level of consciousness, etc, and try to determine if it chooses, or can choose, or if it is really conscious or not, etc...?

Well, what is going on on the inside of it was all deterministic, etc, and also what might be or affect it on the outside of it, was all deterministic as well, etc, but with other cells and stuff outside of it that are not it, but started off by the same kind of determinism that it did originally, etc, so, is it, or can it be really conscious, etc...?

Because I would say not... and I think we on this planet, are the same as that cell in whatever world or environment it is in, etc... It's all like one big massive program that has already been written or determined... All of this and we in it are, etc... Only one way it ever goes or can go, according to how the chain reaction after the initial action set it off or started it all or intiated it all at the very beginning of all of it, etc...

The life and course or function of an individual cell could all be mathematically calculated or figured out for the whole life of it and expressed mathematically, etc, and I think also, so could all of this, and us, and we can/could also, etc...

God Bless!
 
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partinobodycular

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This is a more honest approach than dressing up rehabilitation in the disguise of justice, but I think it is also flawed a la Lewis' article referenced in post #422.
I sometimes think that we focus too much on justice and retribution because it's easier than focusing on compassion. We're moral and just when others have failed us, but we seem to take little or no responsibility when we have failed them. When we fail the poor, or the oppressed, or the exploited, or the addicted, or the mentality ill. I think that if we focused more on what we should do out of compassion, then we'd be far less concerned about we need to do out of justice.

To me that's where humanitarianism should lie. Not after the system has already failed, but before it has been given the opportunity to.
 
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Neogaia777

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If we don't know if subatomic events are deterministic, but we accept that they can affect macro events, then I don't see how you can reach the conclusion that everything is deterministic. To be intellectually honest, you should at least hold the position, "I don't have enough information to say one way or the other."
I would be very, very shocked if we ever eventually found out otherwise, or that it was not, etc...

I guess it is possible that someday when we do find the correct math on the subatomic level, that it completely changes our understanding of everything else, everything else that is, as of right now, all behaves very deterministicallly right now, etc, but it is also equally possible that we will find the subatomic world to behave very deterministically just like the rest all already does and is right now as, etc, and the latter I consider to be a lot more likely than the former, based on the fact that everything else that we do have the math for right now, "all does and is right now", so how cannot that which makes up it also be or do or be also, etc...

God Bless!
 
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Kylie

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I don't see how one level, or all other levels, could be deterministic, and not what makes them up not be also deterministic in some fashion as well, etc...?

Allow me to provide an analogy.

It's like saying that you can't see how some process can be ordered, but what makes up those processes could not also be deterministic.

However, I can give an example of a process which delivers a highly ordered result, yet part of the process is very random.

Ever notice how the bottom of the chip (crisps in some parts of the world) packet, or cereal box, or popcorn tub, it ALWAYS has the little scraggly bits? And all the big pieces are near the top? That's because of random movement.

As the chip packet (or cereal box, etc) moves, the pieces inside jostle about, and gaps open up between them. Of course, smaller gaps are more likely to open up, since all large gaps must start out as small gaps, but not all small gaps will form larger gaps. Thus, smaller pieces are more likely to fall through the gaps, and we'll end up seeing the pieces sorted by size, with larger pieces on top and smaller pieces at the bottom.

This is a highly ordered result, even though a very important part of the process was random.

Likewise, it's entirely possible that on the scale of subatomic particles, there are forces which have a large influence, yet these forces are not strong enough to move things on the macroscopic level.

A single atom, after all, can be moved by Brownian motion, yet Brownian motion has no effect on my position.
 
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Neogaia777

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Allow me to provide an analogy.

It's like saying that you can't see how some process can be ordered, but what makes up those processes could not also be deterministic.

However, I can give an example of a process which delivers a highly ordered result, yet part of the process is very random.

Ever notice how the bottom of the chip (crisps in some parts of the world) packet, or cereal box, or popcorn tub, it ALWAYS has the little scraggly bits? And all the big pieces are near the top? That's because of random movement.

As the chip packet (or cereal box, etc) moves, the pieces inside jostle about, and gaps open up between them. Of course, smaller gaps are more likely to open up, since all large gaps must start out as small gaps, but not all small gaps will form larger gaps. Thus, smaller pieces are more likely to fall through the gaps, and we'll end up seeing the pieces sorted by size, with larger pieces on top and smaller pieces at the bottom.

This is a highly ordered result, even though a very important part of the process was random.

Likewise, it's entirely possible that on the scale of subatomic particles, there are forces which have a large influence, yet these forces are not strong enough to move things on the macroscopic level.

A single atom, after all, can be moved by Brownian motion, yet Brownian motion has no effect on my position.
I find your argument illogical...

And having very little to nothing to do with what I said...

I think I'll just wait on @FrumiousBandersnatch for the time being...

I'm pretty much done talking for now...

Going to bed anyway...

Have a nice night...

God Bless!
 
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Neogaia777

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@Kylie

I didn't deny that future discoveries on the subatomic level could possibly disprove my current theory, or theories, etc, I just don't think it's very likely, etc...

You would have to have proof of a multiverse, or many different universes/realities, that we either crossed over into, or interacted with, or that we crossed over into, or went between, and that went between ours, etc, etc, etc, at this point, etc, to disprove what I am saying to you right now, etc...

But I guess it's possible future discoveries on the subatomic or quantum level might be able to prove something like that maybe, etc...?

"Maybe", etc...

But I also thought most of you guys liked to only work with only what we currently have right now, or can only currently know for currently sure right now also, etc...?

And in my opinion, right now anyway, that all points directly to determinism right now, etc...

Anyway, going to bed...

Have a good night...

God Bless!
 
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Kylie

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@Kylie

I didn't deny that future discoveries on the subatomic level could possibly disprove my current theory, or theories, etc, I just don't think it's very likely, etc...

You would have to have proof of a multiverse, or many different universes/realities, that we either crossed over into, or interacted with, or that we crossed over into, or went between, and that went between ours, etc, etc, etc, at this point, etc, to disprove what I am saying to you right now, etc...

But I guess it's possible future discoveries on the subatomic or quantum level might be able to prove something like that maybe, etc...?

"Maybe", etc...

But I also thought most of you guys liked to only work with only what we currently have right now, or can only currently know for currently sure right now also, etc...?

And in my opinion, right now anyway, that all points directly to determinism right now, etc...

Anyway, going to bed...

Have a good night...

God Bless!

If we don't have answers, then the best we can do is to work with what knowledge we DO have, and that indicates that subatomic events are random.

Now, this could be wrong, of course, but until such evidence is provided, it is most rational to hold the position, "It looks like it is non-deterministic, but additional evidence could show otherwise," and then wait until such evidence shows up.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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The bettering of oneself is not justice. The bettering of another is also not justice, unless of course your unjust acts were the result of their worsened state, in which case it would be an instance of restorative justice.
As I said, what is considered to be justice in this regime is giving the opportunity to voluntarily change their circumstances for the better; conversely, it would be considered unjust not to do so.

If there is no retributive punishment then you fall precisely into the category that Lewis warns us about.
I don't think so. The regime I have in mind involves no punishment, and no coercion or compulsion to take rehabilitation.

It also isn't justice, and it isn't a replacement for retributive justice, as you claimed it was...
OK, call it an alternative to retributive justice.

I'm sorry, but this is another word game. Therapy or rehabilitation is not a judicial category, and the restorative justice noted above is distinct from retributive justice.
The point is that the system would be aimed towards a beneficial outcome for society and offender through positive rather than negative reinforcement. Those unable or unwilling to meet acceptable standards would live isolated from wider society, under appropriate supervision if necessary, with the open option of assistance to reintegrate if they wish.
 
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