It's amazing how the most horrible thing can happen

Wyatt A.

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Thanks for the scriptures.
None of them say anything about God being the source of evil in our lives. Of course God is sovereign and could intervene if He desired. But it is obvious, by just looking around, that He does not. Why not, well that is His business. It is our job to believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those that diligently seek Him.
Meanwhile, if we are going to claim ignorance as to why things happen the way they do, let's claim ignorance on the side of God and His goodness and mercy.
Instead of saying:
"Evil happened to me and since God is in control of everything, He must have done it. I don't know why He did this evil to me."
Let's say:
"Evil happened to me but because He is good and does not change, He did not do it. I don't know why this evil happened, but it was not Him."
I realize some people like to ascribe evil things to God. It makes them feel like He is dealing with them and is involved in their lives. But God's involvement with our lives comes in the form of redemption, salvation, healing, deliverance, and blessings.


You said in your first post that "God is in fact not in control of everything". You even wrote a book about it. I thought that was what we were discussing.[/QUOTE]
 
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SavedByGrace3

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You said in your first post that "God is in fact not in control of everything". You even wrote a book about it. I thought that was what we were discussing.
[/QUOTE]
Thanks for the discussion! :oldthumbsup:
 
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public hermit

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It's amazing how the most horrible thing can happen like an innocent person raped or killed, etc. something horrible, and yet Christians continue to say "God is in control".

I am going to just say it how it is. The society we are living in right now is a terrible place filled with evil, I see no sign of this being from God. It's frustrating to just hear after that "God is in control", as if we are told to just read, believe, and accept without questioning or examining anything else. If God is in control, then he is not going to redeem until one time all at once - but what's the point of this? Will this undo the instances of injustice in the physical world? So God is working in society right now, he just seems dormant apparently because I see no even slightly obvious or detectable sign. So what is the point?

I am emotionally worn out and feel misunderstood.

I'm with you. This world and our experience in it is contrary to what we would expect with a good God that is in control of everything. Not ironically, the scriptures present the same picture, i.e. a world that operates contrary to the divine intention and yet it is under divine control. We are given glimpses of the extent of divine power, particularly the incarnation and resurrection, but the contradiction you point out is a salient feature of Christian faith. That doesn't mean God necessarily controls the action of every agent, but it does mean that God could stop all the nonsense at any given moment. And, it means God can redeem this world that operates contrary to the divine will.

The scriptures are relatively silent on explaining why God chose to create this kind of world with so much sorrow, suffering, evil, and death. But they are heavy on telling us what is good, and the are just as clear in telling us that, when it's all said and done, what is good will remain. It takes faith to trust that goodness and love and life will prevail, but everything that is good, beautiful, and true depends on it.
 
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Wyatt A.

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If I am driving a car I am controlling it.
If I let loose of the steering wheel and take my foot off the pedals, I am no longer in control. Basic logic and English.
Let me illustrate an obvious scenario.
God created a rock, a hill, gravity, and set time and the seasons in place.
The rock is embedded on the side of the hill.
Over time the seasons take place. Ice, snow, melting, water running off. All this is taking place according to the course of nature that God has put in place.
By and by the ice and snow melt. The water running down the hill dislodges the rock. The rock rolls down the hill and bonks someone on the head. We term this to be an accident. Much like when an ax head comes off its handle and kills someone. It is an accident. It was not intended. Nobody, not even God orchestrated these events. It is simple fate and circumstance occurring in time. Could God have stopped the rock or ax head in their path? Yes! Could He have prevented them from even starting on their paths? Yes, certainly. Does He? Obviously not. Look at the virtually infinite number of accidents that carry through to their unhappy result. That a benevolent and controlling God does not have His hand on the steering wheel cannot be more obvious. None of these things could or would happen if He did. We can strain at words and twist logic all we want. But God is not doing these things. The creation has a course of nature and it is rolling along according to the laws that He put into place at creation. And that creation is in a fallen/falling state. That is what is happening in the world since the fall of Adam.



Is God not the one who set things in motion?
I'm not saying He causes evil, evil only comes from the heart of man. A car accident isn't evil unless someone causes it intentionally. A rock falling on your head isn't evil but god still holds all the atoms of the rock together.
 
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Eloy Craft

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I wonder what a sinless world would be like?
History would end as we know it. There would be no past as we know it. Imagine that everyone who was ever born is alive and present. Everything that ever happened is a living memory. A perfect memory at that. The past is no more because everyone who ever lived is present. Our bodies would be free to obey our will. Our flesh doesn't serve another law b cause it's not a body of death. But our experience of time would be radically different because there is no past. Want to know what happened when Christopher Columbus discovered America? Just go ask him. No need to document the present because the past is no more. The present moment would not be burdened by fear from past events or fear of future events. The present moment on earth would be much more like the eternal moment in heaven that has no beginning or end.
 
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Wyatt A.

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History would end as we know it. There would be no past as we know it. Imagine that everyone who was ever born is alive and present. Everything that ever happened is a living memory. A perfect memory at that. The past is no more because everyone who ever lived is present. Our bodies would be free to obey our will. Our flesh doesn't serve another law b cause it's not a body of death. But our experience of time would be radically different because there is no past. Want to know what happened when Christopher Columbus discovered America? Just go ask him. No need to document the present because the past is no more. The present moment would not be burdened by fear from past events or fear of future events. The present moment on earth would be much more like the eternal moment in heaven that has no beginning or end.


Nice insight.
There would be a totally different system which we operated by.
 
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Wyatt A.

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I wonder what a sinless world would be like? That I am a fellow sinner enables me to have compassion on those who sin against me bc I can relate. A sinless world is an interesting concept. Idk the answer.

Edit: CS Lewis created unfallen worlds in his space trilogy. Might want to give them a go if you haven't read the series already

It would look like a garden called eden.
 
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Wyatt A.

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God has given us the answer to a sinfull world and it is up to us to obey God.
Wanting God to act to change how the world is, without any effort from us is to want God to fix our problems from the past, those we cause now and in the future, because we don't want to change.

Yes it comes down to a choice you have to make.
 
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Wyatt A.

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Consider this and see if it lines up with reality.
God allows anything to happen. This is a free running creation of the possible. There is a thing called the course of nature. It has been running since the dawn of creation. When God created a thing, He awarded it the sovereign right to exist and to interact with everything else that exists. He does not have to makes things happen.
Otherwise, creation is tooling along according to the ever-present course of nature.
Can He intervene whenever He want to? Of course, all in accordance with His word and nature.

For instance:
A rock sits embedded in the side of a hill.
Winter comes and ice and snow surround rock.
In the Spring the ice and snow melts.
The runoff dislodges the rock, and it rolls down the hill.
The rock bonks you on the head.

God could intervene, but in this instance, He does not.
This all happened without God's endorsement or direct actions. His involvement was limited to the fact He created all the elements involved and allowed them to interact together. This is the "default" value in all creation. Things are allowed to happen.

Billions of like events happen every day to everyone around the world. Sometimes God gets involved. But it is self-evident that many times He does not. He just allows nature to take its course. Accidents happen.
This is what we are seeing around us every day.

wrong.

Did he know it was going to happen before it happened? Yes therefore he allowed it to happen. Hopefully you would hear a rock rolling down the hill in time to get out of the way. If things happen without gods endorsement then things aren't allowed to happen. If he allows nature to take its course then its not a default action, he is allowing it. An accident is just a term you are limited to in the English language.
 
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Wyatt A.

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Consider this and see if it lines up with reality.
God allows anything to happen. This is a free running creation of the possible. There is a thing called the course of nature. It has been running since the dawn of creation. When God created a thing, He awarded it the sovereign right to exist and to interact with everything else that exists. He does not have to makes things happen.
Otherwise, creation is tooling along according to the ever-present course of nature.
Can He intervene whenever He want to? Of course, all in accordance with His word and nature.

For instance:
A rock sits embedded in the side of a hill.
Winter comes and ice and snow surround rock.
In the Spring the ice and snow melts.
The runoff dislodges the rock, and it rolls down the hill.
The rock bonks you on the head.

God could intervene, but in this instance, He does not.
This all happened without God's endorsement or direct actions. His involvement was limited to the fact He created all the elements involved and allowed them to interact together. This is the "default" value in all creation. Things are allowed to happen.

Billions of like events happen every day to everyone around the world. Sometimes God gets involved. But it is self-evident that many times He does not. He just allows nature to take its course. Accidents happen.
This is what we are seeing around us every day.




God intervenes in his creation all the time. Nothing happens without Gods endorsement. Are you ever present everywhere all the time? Then how would you know what goes on everywhere around the world? A default universe implies things happen by chance which is an evolutionary claim. God created everything so God is in control of everything.

If you're going to use a rock falling on someone's head story you need to speak about a particular account that actually happened, and then you need to know the details of every moment of that situation. Otherwise your just generalizing. That rock anecdote you wrote about never actually happened.
 
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VCR-2000

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He works in the hearts and minds of men through the Holy Spirit. If you want to know God you need a Savior because the world is as you said.

Hey VCR - That shows that you were made in the image of God because you recognize that things are not right with the world. There is a standard of morality and that comes from the mind of God.
Thank you, but I'm not always "right" with God in certain ways. I'm frustrated with him because of the fact of unfairness in existence and that he maintains Satan and gives him permission to do things to people without rolling him back until the end. OTOH, I believe that if everything was absolutely perfect and flawless, life wouldn't be as interesting. It seems like there can't be a middle somewhere.
 
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Wyatt A.

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Thank you, but I'm not always "right" with God in certain ways. I'm frustrated with him because of the fact of unfairness in existence and that he maintains Satan and gives him permission to do things to people without rolling him back until the end. OTOH, I believe that if everything was absolutely perfect and flawless, life wouldn't be as interesting. It seems like there can't be a middle somewhere.


Sounds like you want God to operate on your terms.
 
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Wyatt A.

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Thank you, but I'm not always "right" with God in certain ways. I'm frustrated with him because of the fact of unfairness in existence and that he maintains Satan and gives him permission to do things to people without rolling him back until the end. OTOH, I believe that if everything was absolutely perfect and flawless, life wouldn't be as interesting. It seems like there can't be a middle somewhere.


I think what's really unfair is what Jesus did on the cross. He died so your sins can be forgiven. He was judged as if He was actually the one who committed the sins.
 
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Wyatt A.

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If I am driving a car (I am controlling it.
If I let loose of the steering wheel and take my foot off the pedals, I am no longer in control. Basic logic and English.
Let me illustrate an obvious scenario.
God created a rock, a hill, gravity, and set time and the seasons in place.
The rock is embedded on the side of the hill.
Over time the seasons take place. Ice, snow, melting, water running off. All this is taking place according to the course of nature that God has put in place.
By and by the ice and snow melt. The water running down the hill dislodges the rock. The rock rolls down the hill and bonks someone on the head. We term this to be an accident. Much like when an ax head comes off its handle and kills someone. It is an accident. It was not intended. Nobody, not even God orchestrated these events. It is simple fate and circumstance occurring in time. Could God have stopped the rock or ax head in their path? Yes! Could He have prevented them from even starting on their paths? Yes, certainly. Does He? Obviously not. Look at the virtually infinite number of accidents that carry through to their unhappy result. That a benevolent and controlling God does not have His hand on the steering wheel cannot be more obvious. None of these things could or would happen if He did. We can strain at words and twist logic all we want. But God is not doing these things. The creation has a course of nature and it is rolling along according to the laws that He put into place at creation. And that creation is in a fallen/falling state. That is what is happening in the world since the fall of Adam.





Which events are you talking about? Who were the people involved and what was their life like up until that event?

You don't have the right to claim you know the details of every event that has ever happened because you weren't there. Therefore you don't know if God was in control of that event. By trying to convince people that God is not in control with a fictional story, you're claiming the world operates by your own standards.
 
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Wyatt A.

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Consider this and see if it lines up with reality.
God allows anything to happen. This is a free running creation of the possible. There is a thing called the course of nature. It has been running since the dawn of creation. When God created a thing, He awarded it the sovereign right to exist and to interact with everything else that exists. He does not have to makes things happen.
Otherwise, creation is tooling along according to the ever-present course of nature.
Can He intervene whenever He want to? Of course, all in accordance with His word and nature.

For instance:
A rock sits embedded in the side of a hill.
Winter comes and ice and snow surround rock.
In the Spring the ice and snow melts.
The runoff dislodges the rock, and it rolls down the hill.
The rock bonks you on the head.

God could intervene, but in this instance, He does not.
This all happened without God's endorsement or direct actions. His involvement was limited to the fact He created all the elements involved and allowed them to interact together. This is the "default" value in all creation. Things are allowed to happen.

Billions of like events happen every day to everyone around the world. Sometimes God gets involved. But it is self-evident that many times He does not. He just allows nature to take its course. Accidents happen.
This is what we are seeing around us every day.
Thank you, but I'm not always "right" with God in certain ways. I'm frustrated with him because of the fact of unfairness in existence and that he maintains Satan and gives him permission to do things to people without rolling him back until the end. OTOH, I believe that if everything was absolutely perfect and flawless, life wouldn't be as interesting. It seems like there can't be a middle somewhere.


How do you know when God does or doesn't give the devil permission? Are you there at those events? You have the same deal as everyone else. You have a choice to make, and you can't say you weren't given that choice by claiming that its "unfair".

Your statement is contradictory.
 
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VCR-2000

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How do you know when God does or doesn't give the devil permission? Are you there at those events? You have the same deal as everyone else. You have a choice to make, and you can't say you weren't given that choice by claiming that its "unfair".

Your statement is contradictory.
I don't know when God doesn't give the devil permission. I can only speak for the things we know have and will continue happening. What is the devil not permitted to do to us here?
 
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Hawkins

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God's goal is to build a sin-free Heaven. As a result, every evil is allowed on earth such that evil will be eradicated once and for all legitimately through the legal/lawful process known as the Final Judgment.

God's jobs on earth are, 1) to save souls deserving to be saved, and 2) to wipe the tears of the victims such that they won't complain in eternity.

So if the victims don't complain in eternity, what's that to you?!
 
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