Matthew 24:34

[Dietrich Johnson]

What does Matthew 24:34 mean?

 

[sandman]

OOPS

 

[Sheila Davis]

What does Matthew 24:34 mean?

The entire chapter of Matthew 24 is concerning prophecy of the last days - which started after the death burial and resurrection of Christ _ so it may be better to say when there is little time left. As written in verse 33 when you see all these things happening, know that it is near even at the door. (Time is ending very, very, very, soon). People within that generation are the ones to see it all happening. The question is; is it 120 year generation which a few people still live to be over a hundred, 80 year generation which people do live to be well over 80 or 40-year generation.
And when you look at the prophecies written in both Old and New Testament concerning the last days the majority of the prophecies are happening - the days of Noah is not here, the revealing of the man of sin the abomination that maketh desolate is not here. And we won't see Jesus returning until those two things happen and the great tribulation takes place.
People of that generation, the last generation will witness all these things.

 

[martymonster]

What does Matthew 24:34 mean?

It means that everything he is speaking of is spiritual. It all happens within for every generation of his elect.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Was He speaking to the Jews?

They were to experience a cataclysm of their faith in AD70 and many believing Jews where martyred.

It seems this was followed by the 'time of the Gentiles' so the clock stopped for them at that point, it will start again when the Jews as a Nation come to repentance.

Just my thoughts - I am no expert.

 

[Ligurian]

What does Matthew 24:34 mean?

In context, Matthew is the Gospel of the Kingdom.
So Matthew 24:34 is also about the circumcision... the genos.
The Sabbath Day is a very large clue. Matthew 24:20

Matthew 24:34-35 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. Heaven and Earth shall pass away, but My words shall not pass away.

genea = from (a presumed derivative of) genos:--age, generation, nation, time.
genos = from ginomai; "kin":--kindred, nation, offspring, stock.

 

[tampasteve]

ADMIN HAT ON

Please note this is in the Reformed community forum, not the open General Theology forum. Answers need to be in line with the SOP for this forum.

ADMIN HAT OFF

 

[The Righterzpen]

What does Matthew 24:34 mean?

Pay real close attention to everything that's being asked in this chapter.

1st verse the disciples are talking about the temple.
Jesus tells them it will be destroyed.

Note verse 3; they are actually asking Jesus two to three different questions:
1. When will these things come to pass (meaning destruction of temple)?
2. AND when shall be the sign of your coming?
3. AND the end of the world?

Starting with verse 4; Jesus gives a sequence of answers that covers a lot of ground. (From the point they are in history to the end of time.)

Much of these conditions apply not only to the disciples personally, but also to believers from their time to Judgement Day. Although not every event Jesus describes here runs that whole gambit. Some are "beginning of the end"; some are "end of the end". Some of what had its initial fulfillment in the 1st century; certainly appears to have a parallel reemergence (but not the same event) at the end of time. (I.E. there is mass apostasy at the end and many "false christs and false prophets".)

Now verses 15 - 33:

Verse 15 speaks of "When you see the abomination that causes desolate standing in the holy place....." This verse does not mean that the "abomination that causes desolate" was to happen some point far off in the future. It was present; they just didn't "see" it.

Note this verse also says "Whosoever reads let him understand." That verse particularly is addressing people reading the New Testament after it has been written.

Now 2 Thessalonians 2:3 talks about "son of perdition being revealed".
John 17:12 names the "son of perdition" as being Judas.

Now just as Jews today are looking for a political messiah; did the leaders of the 1st century (or did Judas himself) think he was going to take Jesus's place and be the leader who would come to overthrow Rome? If you know much about the Talmud; Rabbinic Judaism still thinks their messiah will overthrow Christ. I don't know if the leaders or Judas at that time thought he was the messiah; but according to Thessalonians that appears to have been the case. He exalts himself over all that's called God. After all Judas is the human antecedent to the crucifixion. He was the "linch pin" in the leaders' plan.

Now these next segments are going to be long and involved hearkening back to passages in the book of Daniel. (Warning - yes I know - it's a lot of info

Atonement Time Table:

Daniel 9:27 says "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week and in the middle of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and oblation to cease…" Now a lot of Bible commentators ascribe this to a 7 year tribulation. Which is true that this passage ascribes to a tribulation; but that tribulation is (as stated here) "for one week".

BUT - when we start looking at the gospels, we see some interesting things:

1. We have Mary anointing Jesus's feet "6 days before the Passover". This occurred on the Friday (Thursday after sundown) prior to the sabbath that fell the day before the triumphant entry into Jerusalem. The seventh day would have been the day of the crucifixion.

Verse 24 of Daniel 9 says that "70 weeks are determined upon the people and upon the holy city…." Verse 27 states that this ends on "the consummation". The next time table we are given is "three score and two weeks" (62 weeks). Than another 8 weeks to the consummation. The "consummation" is Pentecost. 70 weeks before that is the death of John the Baptist. 62 weeks from the death of John the Baptist, going toward Pentecost is the Friday before the crucifixion.

This lands us right were we started - 6 days before the Passover with Mary and anointing Jesus's feet. Jesus states (of this event) that "she has reserved this against the day of my burial". This commences what is called in the Scripture "the great tribulation".

2. Three days later, oil was poured over Jesus's head. He states this is done for his burial. (His burial commenced that night.) 3 days and 3 nights later he's dead. This is the "three days and three nights in the heart of the earth". This event falls on the heels of the last day he spends in the temple teaching. That day, he spent explaining to the people the destruction of the Jewish religion and warned them of future events surrounding the destruction of Jerusalem. By the time we get to 70 AD (destruction of the temple) and 93 AD (Herod Agrippa II dies); we have the end of the nation. Jesus also makes some references to judgement day at the end of time; but states at that time that he does not know when Judgement Day will happen.

3. Within the context of the discussion of the dismantling of the old testament system and the destruction of Jerusalem, Jesus talks about the tribulation. He says that it will be cut short, because if it is not cut short, no flesh would be saved.

So the tribulation commences with Mary anointing Jesus's feet and ends at the Passover. (It's cut short by a little less than a day.) So what happens at the end of the Passover? Jesus is confronted with the angel of death. Exodus says the angel of death will pass through the land at midnight.

Where is Jesus at midnight? He's in Gethsemane.

Now what is Gethsemane? A Gethsemane is a cave that houses an olive press. There were several Gethsemane(s) around the mount of olives because it was an olive grove and this is where they crushed the olives to make oil for the lamps in the temple. Contrary to popular belief "Gethsemane" was not a garden. Jesus was in a garden before he ends up in Gethsemane, but Gethsemane was not a garden. Now they went into this cave to escape the cold, because a lot of people stayed in these caves as lodging during the passover.

So, what happens while Jesus is in this Gethsemane? He's confronted with an angel. (Luke 22:43). Now the English says this angel "strengthens him" but the Greek actually says the angel "shows a display of strength (or force) before (against) him".

Next question: How is Jesus acting before he encounters this angel and how does he act after?

Jesus says "My soul is swallowed up in death…." and just prior to this he becomes "exceedingly sorrowful". This "sorrowfulness" is a process that's been happening for a couple of days now. It started Tuesday night after being "anointed for burial" and becomes progressively worse until the night of Passover.

So if the breath of life is what makes a person "a living soul"; all the angel of death has to do is remove the breath of life and the person dies. Now Jesus is confronted with the angel of death, but he doesn't physically die. Why is this? This is because of his Divine nature. Now if he didn't have a Divine nature, at this point he would have been physically dead; but since the Divine nature has yet to be severed from the human nature, he's still alive. For all intent and purpose though, his soul has been severed from his personhood; reserved in Sheol to await the death of his body. This is where he "preached to spirits in prison". (1 Pete 3:19) Also Acts 2:27 & 31 say "you have not left my soul in hell, nor will suffer your holy one (body) to see decay.

The next event to happen is the arrest, trial, beating, Peter's denial (3 AM), Pilate, Herod, Judas returns money to the temple is told "See too it yourself." Pilate, Barabbas, Pilate washes his hands before the public. Tells the public "See too it yourselves." The people say "Let his blood be on us and our children." (6 to 7 AM), condemnation, Judas goes and hangs himself, flogging, mocking, crucifixion (9 AM), sun darkened (noon), death, veil rent (3 PM), burial (before sundown), Saturday The Sabbath, resurrection (3 AM Sunday morning).

So from the point of the encounter with the angel of death, Jesus's soul is rent from his personhood. He goes through all the following events till just before his death pretty much emotionless.

The Crucifixion:

There are four things recorded that Jesus utters just before he dies, but of those 4 phrases the first one that is quasi comprehendible to anyone witnessing this is "Eli Eli lama sabach thani.". The priests think he's calling Elisha. The second phrase "I thirst." was probably only heard by the soldiers and is stated that he said this because he recognized "all had been accomplished". At that point he's given vinegar and hyssop; (which is a mild sedative); which he drinks. Prior to this he'd been given vinegar and sour wine, which he'd refused.

The next two phrases "Into your hands I commend my spirit" and "It is finished" are recorded for us as interpretations of what is intended, yet to the people witnessing this, it looks like delirious screaming. The Greek indicates that the noise Jesus makes sounds like the screeching of a crow. (He's breaking down cognitively at this point because his personhood is being destroyed.) Keep in mind that the sun is still darkened and has been darkened for about 3 hours.

Which phrase came first is unclear from the text, because the sequence is derived from combining the accounts in two different gospels. The "it is finished" is followed by "bowed the head"; which appears to be the last thing that happened.

The last thing recorded to occur just before death is "yielding up the ghost (or spirit)". The language here is interesting because the word "yielding" is most commonly translated as "betrayed" (turned over). The "spirit" that's being "betrayed" is defined as "his spirit". This is not a reference to the Holy Spirit because it would have been phrased differently if it was.

So this "spirit" appears to be the human component that "houses" conscious awareness of God and if "it is finished" was a reference to a spiritual awareness of being forsaken; it would make sense that "betray" (his) "spirit" would be the last conscious act Jesus would surrender to before the Divine nature is rent from the human body, thus causing his death. The veil in the temple was rent top to bottom simultaneously with Jesus dying; so thus I think is the symbolic indicator of his Divinity "torn" from his body.

Now returning for a minute to the phrase concerning the tribulation being shortened or no flesh would be saved. The tribulation ended with the encounter of the angel of death. That was the shortening there of.

Right after this angel departs, comes Judas and the posse to arrest Jesus. Peter pulls out his sword (this is actually the second time this happens) and whacks off the ear of the high priest's servant. The first time this happens (this was the first encounter in the winter garden) Jesus heals this servant. The second time this happens (in Gethsemane) he doesn't. Now is this the same servant who had his ear cut off twice? I don't know. If it is though, this would give some credence as to why Jesus didn't heal him again. The name of the servant given in John is Malchus. This is the Greek version of the Hebrew name Melek; which means "king".

After this, Jesus turns to Peter and says: "Do you think that I can not pray to my Father (right now) and he will send me more than 12 legions of angels? But how than should the Scripture be fulfilled? So this is how it must be." This clues us in on the fact that Jesus is aware that he doesn't have to do this. He could call it quits and go back to heaven and that would be the end of it; thus no flesh would be saved. This hearkens back to Jesus praying if this cup could pass from him; "Not my will but Yours be done".

Keep in mind that Jesus's soul has already been severed from his personhood and is in Hades. The fact that this happened is a mercy to the rest of us, because what Jesus is indicating here; is that if this hadn't happened, he would have quit because the process of being forsaken was more than his soul could deal with. Now at this point, it does not seem to me that Jesus is consciously aware of what his soul is "feeling"; although he is aware of what happened to it.

So in turn this could be why the English translators said this angel "strengthened" him; because in a round about way that's exactly what happened. He was strengthened through the death of his soul.

So what happened when Jesus died?

His soul was delivered from hell, joined his spirit (that he'd "betrayed") and in his human nature he stood before the Father as proof that he'd made it out of this ordeal without sinning. Revelation 5 - He's the lamb slain who appears in heaven to open the seals.

Jeremiah 30 talks about the "time of Jacob's trouble". This is also equated to in eschatological speak as "the tribulation". What is important to note about what Jeremiah says concerning Jacob's trouble is that "Jacob" is delivered from them on account of his own obedience.

Matthew 24:29-31 talks about what happens "immediately after the tribulation". Sun darkened, moon does not give light - this happened from noon to 3 PM on the day of the crucifixion. The stars fall from heaven and the powers of heaven are shaken. This is probably a reference to not just the severance of the two natures; but in that process Jesus the man is forsaken by the rest of the Godhead; and because of what he/He was created as, this is why the powers of heaven are shaken.

The next verse: "They shall see the sign of the son of man in heaven…" This is something that entities in heaven are looking down upon. Thus probably why the sun was darkened and the moon did not give its light. The creatures on earth can not see into heaven, but the entities in heaven can see what's going on down on earth; and what they are looking at is the crucifixion. They are watching Jesus die is what's going on.

How do we know this is what it means by "sign of the son of man in heaven"? Jesus makes a reference speaking to the Pharisees about "A wicked and adulterous generation seeks after a sigh, but the only sign given it will be the sign of the prophet Jonah; whereas Jonah was in the wale's belly 3 days and 3 nights, so shall the son of man be in the heart of the earth." Now we know when this happened. The 3 days and 3 nights started sundown Tuesday and ended when Jesus died Friday afternoon. So the only public display that occurred to this "wicked and adulterous generation" was the crucifixion.

The next part of this verse: "..then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn and they shall see the son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." This verse is not talking about the return of Christ to earth; it's talking about the ascension into heaven upon his death. The tribes of the earth that mourn are all the unregenerate souls who are in Sheol and see this happen. Once Jesus leaves Sheol all the redeemed on the old testament side of the cross go with him. They got their 'ticket to ride' - there they go! Revelation picks this up as: "a multitude that no man could number who came out of great tribulation." This is the "first resurrection over which the second death has no power". This first resurrection also includes those who come after, who live and die in the interim between Pentecost and judgement day.

Interestingly to note too is that these are "of every kindred, tribe, tongue and nation". They aren't just Israelites from the old testament side of the cross. These are people from around the globe; which explaining how people can be redeemed based on the testimony of creation alone, without ever having heard Scripture, is the subject of a whole other Bible study.

So that's what all that means and it's all taking place from the perspective of what is witnessed in the spiritual realm in both directions; earthly souls looking up and heaven looking down.

And here we finally get to Matthew 24:34. All these things have come to pass in the generation of the disciples.

Now look at Matthew 24:35:
"Heaven and earth will pass away..... But of that hour (heaven and earth will pass away) no one knows...." Or at least at the point Jesus said that he didn't know when Judgement Day would be.

I think at the point Jesus rose from the dead though; he did know when Judgement Day would be. He eludes to this in the book of Acts just before the ascension. He tells the disciples that it's not for them to know times and seasons the Father put in His own authority. Note though that Jesus DOES NOT say that he doesn't know the day or hour of his return at that point.

Keep in mind that the "no man knows the day or hour.... " statement comes before the crucifixion. Which I think the revelation of when the day and hour would be came with the unsealing of the scroll.

Now will there come a day when what is in the scroll is "unsealed" to believers on earth; (in the form of "knowledge will increase" via being able to put together all the pieces of what's written in Scripture)?

That I don't know the answer to. But there seems to be some indications in the New Testament that the believers just before Judgement Day comes; will know that they are most likely the generation that sees the return of Christ.

 

[Sheila Davis]

Pay real close attention to everything that's being asked in this chapter.

1st verse the disciples are talking about the temple.
Jesus tells them it will be destroyed.

Note verse 3; they are actually asking Jesus two to three different questions:
1. When will these things come to pass (meaning destruction of temple)?
2. AND when shall be the sign of your coming?
3. AND the end of the world?

Starting with verse 4; Jesus gives a sequence of answers that covers a lot of ground. (From the point they are in history to the end of time.)

Much of these conditions apply not only to the disciples personally, but also to believers from their time to Judgement Day. Although not every event Jesus describes here runs that whole gambit. Some are "beginning of the end"; some are "end of the end". Some of what had its initial fulfillment in the 1st century; certainly appears to have a parallel reemergence (but not the same event) at the end of time. (I.E. there is mass apostasy at the end and many "false christs and false prophets".)

Now verses 15 - 33:

Verse 15 speaks of "When you see the abomination that causes desolate standing in the holy place....." This verse does not mean that the "abomination that causes desolate" was to happen some point far off in the future. It was present; they just didn't "see" it.

Note this verse also says "Whosoever reads let him understand." That verse particularly is addressing people reading the New Testament after it has been written.

Now 2 Thessalonians 2:3 talks about "son of perdition being revealed".
John 17:12 names the "son of perdition" as being Judas.

Now just as Jews today are looking for a political messiah; did the leaders of the 1st century (or did Judas himself) think he was going to take Jesus's place and be the leader who would come to overthrow Rome? If you know much about the Talmud; Rabbinic Judaism still thinks their messiah will overthrow Christ. I don't know if the leaders or Judas at that time thought he was the messiah; but according to Thessalonians that appears to have been the case. He exalts himself over all that's called God. After all Judas is the human antecedent to the crucifixion. He was the "linch pin" in the leaders' plan.

Now these next segments are going to be long and involved hearkening back to passages in the book of Daniel. (Warning - yes I know - it's a lot of info

Atonement Time Table:

Daniel 9:27 says "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week and in the middle of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and oblation to cease…" Now a lot of Bible commentators ascribe this to a 7 year tribulation. Which is true that this passage ascribes to a tribulation; but that tribulation is (as stated here) "for one week".

BUT - when we start looking at the gospels, we see some interesting things:

1. We have Mary anointing Jesus's feet "6 days before the Passover". This occurred on the Friday (Thursday after sundown) prior to the sabbath that fell the day before the triumphant entry into Jerusalem. The seventh day would have been the day of the crucifixion.

Verse 24 of Daniel 9 says that "70 weeks are determined upon the people and upon the holy city…." Verse 27 states that this ends on "the consummation". The next time table we are given is "three score and two weeks" (62 weeks). Than another 8 weeks to the consummation. The "consummation" is Pentecost. 70 weeks before that is the death of John the Baptist. 62 weeks from the death of John the Baptist, going toward Pentecost is the Friday before the crucifixion.

This lands us right were we started - 6 days before the Passover with Mary and anointing Jesus's feet. Jesus states (of this event) that "she has reserved this against the day of my burial". This commences what is called in the Scripture "the great tribulation".

2. Three days later, oil was poured over Jesus's head. He states this is done for his burial. (His burial commenced that night.) 3 days and 3 nights later he's dead. This is the "three days and three nights in the heart of the earth". This event falls on the heels of the last day he spends in the temple teaching. That day, he spent explaining to the people the destruction of the Jewish religion and warned them of future events surrounding the destruction of Jerusalem. By the time we get to 70 AD (destruction of the temple) and 93 AD (Herod Agrippa II dies); we have the end of the nation. Jesus also makes some references to judgement day at the end of time; but states at that time that he does not know when Judgement Day will happen.

3. Within the context of the discussion of the dismantling of the old testament system and the destruction of Jerusalem, Jesus talks about the tribulation. He says that it will be cut short, because if it is not cut short, no flesh would be saved.

So the tribulation commences with Mary anointing Jesus's feet and ends at the Passover. (It's cut short by a little less than a day.) So what happens at the end of the Passover? Jesus is confronted with the angel of death. Exodus says the angel of death will pass through the land at midnight.

Where is Jesus at midnight? He's in Gethsemane.

Now what is Gethsemane? A Gethsemane is a cave that houses an olive press. There were several Gethsemane(s) around the mount of olives because it was an olive grove and this is where they crushed the olives to make oil for the lamps in the temple. Contrary to popular belief "Gethsemane" was not a garden. Jesus was in a garden before he ends up in Gethsemane, but Gethsemane was not a garden. Now they went into this cave to escape the cold, because a lot of people stayed in these caves as lodging during the passover.

So, what happens while Jesus is in this Gethsemane? He's confronted with an angel. (Luke 22:43). Now the English says this angel "strengthens him" but the Greek actually says the angel "shows a display of strength (or force) before (against) him".

Next question: How is Jesus acting before he encounters this angel and how does he act after?

Jesus says "My soul is swallowed up in death…." and just prior to this he becomes "exceedingly sorrowful". This "sorrowfulness" is a process that's been happening for a couple of days now. It started Tuesday night after being "anointed for burial" and becomes progressively worse until the night of Passover.

So if the breath of life is what makes a person "a living soul"; all the angel of death has to do is remove the breath of life and the person dies. Now Jesus is confronted with the angel of death, but he doesn't physically die. Why is this? This is because of his Divine nature. Now if he didn't have a Divine nature, at this point he would have been physically dead; but since the Divine nature has yet to be severed from the human nature, he's still alive. For all intent and purpose though, his soul has been severed from his personhood; reserved in Sheol to await the death of his body. This is where he "preached to spirits in prison". (1 Pete 3:19) Also Acts 2:27 & 31 say "you have not left my soul in hell, nor will suffer your holy one (body) to see decay.

The next event to happen is the arrest, trial, beating, Peter's denial (3 AM), Pilate, Herod, Judas returns money to the temple is told "See too it yourself." Pilate, Barabbas, Pilate washes his hands before the public. Tells the public "See too it yourselves." The people say "Let his blood be on us and our children." (6 to 7 AM), condemnation, Judas goes and hangs himself, flogging, mocking, crucifixion (9 AM), sun darkened (noon), death, veil rent (3 PM), burial (before sundown), Saturday The Sabbath, resurrection (3 AM Sunday morning).

So from the point of the encounter with the angel of death, Jesus's soul is rent from his personhood. He goes through all the following events till just before his death pretty much emotionless.

The Crucifixion:

There are four things recorded that Jesus utters just before he dies, but of those 4 phrases the first one that is quasi comprehendible to anyone witnessing this is "Eli Eli lama sabach thani.". The priests think he's calling Elisha. The second phrase "I thirst." was probably only heard by the soldiers and is stated that he said this because he recognized "all had been accomplished". At that point he's given vinegar and hyssop; (which is a mild sedative); which he drinks. Prior to this he'd been given vinegar and sour wine, which he'd refused.

The next two phrases "Into your hands I commend my spirit" and "It is finished" are recorded for us as interpretations of what is intended, yet to the people witnessing this, it looks like delirious screaming. The Greek indicates that the noise Jesus makes sounds like the screeching of a crow. (He's breaking down cognitively at this point because his personhood is being destroyed.) Keep in mind that the sun is still darkened and has been darkened for about 3 hours.

Which phrase came first is unclear from the text, because the sequence is derived from combining the accounts in two different gospels. The "it is finished" is followed by "bowed the head"; which appears to be the last thing that happened.

The last thing recorded to occur just before death is "yielding up the ghost (or spirit)". The language here is interesting because the word "yielding" is most commonly translated as "betrayed" (turned over). The "spirit" that's being "betrayed" is defined as "his spirit". This is not a reference to the Holy Spirit because it would have been phrased differently if it was.

So this "spirit" appears to be the human component that "houses" conscious awareness of God and if "it is finished" was a reference to a spiritual awareness of being forsaken; it would make sense that "betray" (his) "spirit" would be the last conscious act Jesus would surrender to before the Divine nature is rent from the human body, thus causing his death. The veil in the temple was rent top to bottom simultaneously with Jesus dying; so thus I think is the symbolic indicator of his Divinity "torn" from his body.

Now returning for a minute to the phrase concerning the tribulation being shortened or no flesh would be saved. The tribulation ended with the encounter of the angel of death. That was the shortening there of.

Right after this angel departs, comes Judas and the posse to arrest Jesus. Peter pulls out his sword (this is actually the second time this happens) and whacks off the ear of the high priest's servant. The first time this happens (this was the first encounter in the winter garden) Jesus heals this servant. The second time this happens (in Gethsemane) he doesn't. Now is this the same servant who had his ear cut off twice? I don't know. If it is though, this would give some credence as to why Jesus didn't heal him again. The name of the servant given in John is Malchus. This is the Greek version of the Hebrew name Melek; which means "king".

After this, Jesus turns to Peter and says: "Do you think that I can not pray to my Father (right now) and he will send me more than 12 legions of angels? But how than should the Scripture be fulfilled? So this is how it must be." This clues us in on the fact that Jesus is aware that he doesn't have to do this. He could call it quits and go back to heaven and that would be the end of it; thus no flesh would be saved. This hearkens back to Jesus praying if this cup could pass from him; "Not my will but Yours be done".

Keep in mind that Jesus's soul has already been severed from his personhood and is in Hades. The fact that this happened is a mercy to the rest of us, because what Jesus is indicating here; is that if this hadn't happened, he would have quit because the process of being forsaken was more than his soul could deal with. Now at this point, it does not seem to me that Jesus is consciously aware of what his soul is "feeling"; although he is aware of what happened to it.

So in turn this could be why the English translators said this angel "strengthened" him; because in a round about way that's exactly what happened. He was strengthened through the death of his soul.

So what happened when Jesus died?

His soul was delivered from hell, joined his spirit (that he'd "betrayed") and in his human nature he stood before the Father as proof that he'd made it out of this ordeal without sinning. Revelation 5 - He's the lamb slain who appears in heaven to open the seals.

Jeremiah 30 talks about the "time of Jacob's trouble". This is also equated to in eschatological speak as "the tribulation". What is important to note about what Jeremiah says concerning Jacob's trouble is that "Jacob" is delivered from them on account of his own obedience.

Matthew 24:29-31 talks about what happens "immediately after the tribulation". Sun darkened, moon does not give light - this happened from noon to 3 PM on the day of the crucifixion. The stars fall from heaven and the powers of heaven are shaken. This is probably a reference to not just the severance of the two natures; but in that process Jesus the man is forsaken by the rest of the Godhead; and because of what he/He was created as, this is why the powers of heaven are shaken.

The next verse: "They shall see the sign of the son of man in heaven…" This is something that entities in heaven are looking down upon. Thus probably why the sun was darkened and the moon did not give its light. The creatures on earth can not see into heaven, but the entities in heaven can see what's going on down on earth; and what they are looking at is the crucifixion. They are watching Jesus die is what's going on.

How do we know this is what it means by "sign of the son of man in heaven"? Jesus makes a reference speaking to the Pharisees about "A wicked and adulterous generation seeks after a sigh, but the only sign given it will be the sign of the prophet Jonah; whereas Jonah was in the wale's belly 3 days and 3 nights, so shall the son of man be in the heart of the earth." Now we know when this happened. The 3 days and 3 nights started sundown Tuesday and ended when Jesus died Friday afternoon. So the only public display that occurred to this "wicked and adulterous generation" was the crucifixion.

The next part of this verse: "..then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn and they shall see the son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." This verse is not talking about the return of Christ to earth; it's talking about the ascension into heaven upon his death. The tribes of the earth that mourn are all the unregenerate souls who are in Sheol and see this happen. Once Jesus leaves Sheol all the redeemed on the old testament side of the cross go with him. They got their 'ticket to ride' - there they go! Revelation picks this up as: "a multitude that no man could number who came out of great tribulation." This is the "first resurrection over which the second death has no power". This first resurrection also includes those who come after, who live and die in the interim between Pentecost and judgement day.

Interestingly to note too is that these are "of every kindred, tribe, tongue and nation". They aren't just Israelites from the old testament side of the cross. These are people from around the globe; which explaining how people can be redeemed based on the testimony of creation alone, without ever having heard Scripture, is the subject of a whole other Bible study.

So that's what all that means and it's all taking place from the perspective of what is witnessed in the spiritual realm in both directions; earthly souls looking up and heaven looking down.

And here we finally get to Matthew 24:34. All these things have come to pass in the generation of the disciples.

Now look at Matthew 24:35:
"Heaven and earth will pass away..... But of that hour (heaven and earth will pass away) no one knows...." Or at least at the point Jesus said that he didn't know when Judgement Day would be.

I think at the point Jesus rose from the dead though; he did know when Judgement Day would be. He eludes to this in the book of Acts just before the ascension. He tells the disciples that it's not for them to know times and seasons the Father put in His own authority. Note though that Jesus DOES NOT say that he doesn't know the day or hour of his return at that point.

Keep in mind that the "no man knows the day or hour.... " statement comes before the crucifixion. Which I think the revelation of when the day and hour would be came with the unsealing of the scroll.

Now will there come a day when what is in the scroll is "unsealed" to believers on earth; (in the form of "knowledge will increase" via being able to put together all the pieces of what's written in Scripture)?

That I don't know the answer to. But there seems to be some indications in the New Testament that the believers just before Judgement Day comes; will know that they are most likely the generation that sees the return of Christ.

I hope you don't mind but I have a question -2nd Thessalonians 2:3 _ you state the son of perdition as being Judas and I know that most churches teach that the son of perdition is Judas. My question is why then in 4:4 does it begins to describe the son of perdition and his actions as someone other than Judas, none of what is written fits Judas _ more like the devil or the Antichrist ..... "who opposeth and exalted himself above all that is called God, or that is worship; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God."
And going on further through to verse 12, gives some more descriptions, refers to him as the wicked one, coming after the workings of Satan, and all the powers, signs and lying wonders, deception. And the subject is still the same as it was in verse 3 concerning the son perdition being revealed. That's my understanding of it.

 

[The Righterzpen]

I hope you don't mind but I have a question -2nd Thessalonians 2:3

Nope; don't mind at all if you ask questions.

you state the son of perdition as being Judas and I know that most churches teach that the son of perdition is Judas.

The Scripture itself states the "son of perdition" is Judas. (It's not a "church teaching".)
John 17:12

My question is why then in 4:4 does it begins to describe the son of perdition and his actions as someone other than Judas, none of what is written fits Judas _ more like the devil or the Antichrist ..... "who opposeth and exalted himself above all that is called God, or that is worship; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God."

To my knowledge Judas is the only person ever described in Scripture to have "Satan enter him". John 13:27

So of course, if you go back to the creation story. The angelic host was created on day one, before carbon based life was created. In the book of Job; God describes these non-carbon based entities called "angels" as having witnessed the laying of the foundation of the world. (Job 38:6-7)

Lucifer was the "covering cherub". He was a different type of angel than any other angel. Now what was he to "cover". He's described as the "roof" of the domain that he was to protect against. (Ezekiel 28) "Darkness was upon the face of the deep" (Genesis 1:2) That "darkness upon the face of the deep" is likely what Lucifer was assigned to protect the rest of creation from having been invaded by the tumultuous, rebellious "reaction" to God's "action" of creating. (You know "to every action is an equal and opposite reaction".) What was the "knowledge of good and evil" that God possessed in eternity. Yet God being the nature of what it means to be God in the first place; can't be corrupted by evil. Anything that God created though, could be. (And it was.) The fall was inevitable because of this.

Well Lucifer was the first entity to fall. He fell before Adam and Eve did. This "covering cherub" who was assigned to protect the "higher order" creation from this rebellion had succumbed to this rebellion himself. Now in similar venue as Adam (Eve was deceived but Adam wasn't.) Lucifer was not deceived. He made an intentional choice to willfully transgress what God had assigned him to. This is why in Revelation 20:1 Satan is described as "the lid" (having been torn off now) and "chained into the pit".

Move now from Lucifer to Adam. Adam is created in God's image. Judas was a descendent of Adam. The difference between men and angels is that humanity maintains the ability to make moral choices for "good". Angels don't. When they fall, their fall is complete and total. Thus the "theological difference" between "total depravity" and being "depraved totally". Humans can't reattain a position of favor with God by making correct moral choices. They do "lesson the wages of sin" that they "earn" when they do so. Fallen angels though loose the ability to make any morally right choices. This is why there is no redemption plan for angels. They are a different type of creation than humanity.

So Lucifer was "the covering cherub"; very different than any other angel and very "beautiful". He possessed sentience and intelligence. Prior to the point Adam was created; Lucifer was likely the most intelligent entity in the created world.

Now Adam was created in the image of Christ. What in the incarnation serves as the essence of Divinity that Satan can not over come? Jesus was not only human (as Adam was) he was also Divine. Jesus is two natures "created" as one entity. (The human aspect of Christ had a beginning obviously.)

So Adam comes on the scene as the expressed image of the Creator and that is the point I believe that Lucifer fell. Did Lucifer "figure out" from the creation of Adam that the incarnation would come eventually? I don't know the answer to that. Satan certainly knew though at the point God told Eve that her seed would crush the serpent's head; that the incarnation was coming.

Now take all this information and insert it into your question about Judas. At what point in history could Satan have believed he could "foiled God's plan" as it related to the material world? Lucifer knew even from before the point he fell; that when God said something would happen; that something would come to pass.

So Satan takes possession of Judas; mind you at Judas's own independent volition to allow this to happen. For what purpose? (To attempt to kill the 2nd person of the Trinity.) If that intent is not to "exalt one's self above God" I don't know what is?

Obviously though God is immortal. If the 2nd person of the Trinity had decided that he was not going to allow this severing of these two natures (Divine and human) thus "destroying" the entity that Christ was; Jesus never would have died. Obviously we know there was a purpose to that event though. (Purpose of redeeming sinners.)

So, the portion of the verse in 2 Thessalonians about "sitting in the temple of God; showing himself that he is god". The "temple" was Christ's body. Satan proved through Judas that he was capable of dominion over the created order; by destroying the humanity of the 2nd person of the Trinity. This is why Satan is called "the prince of the power of the air". Now of course God allowed this to happen for God's own reasons.

So knowing there was only ever one God-man who existed in the course of created history. Ask yourself this question. At what other time in history could Satan ever display that he is the "prince of the power of the air"? There is no human being in history who was more pivotal to kill than Jesus Christ.

And going on further through to verse 12, gives some more descriptions, refers to him as the wicked one, coming after the workings of Satan, and all the powers, signs and lying wonders, deception. And the subject is still the same as it was in verse 3 concerning the son perdition being revealed. That's my understanding of it.

Now your question here about this appearing to be something to happen in the future; can be answered by looking at the greek verbs. The verb "revealed" (man of sin revealed) is not in the future tense. It's aorist passive subjective. "Having been revealed"; which Paul specifies that in the phrase "son of perdition" which John 17:12 tells us who that is.

Now verse 6: "... that he might be revealed in his time.." That's also not future tense. It's aorist passive infinitive. Aorist passive is similar in verb function to aorist perfect. The "perfect" tense is an incident that happens in the past that has implications in the present despite the event itself is not "continually present tense". For example; Jesus died and rose from the dead. That has lasting implications today, but he's not continually dying and continually rising.

Now there is also an "imperfect tense" which is an event pegged to a certain point in history that continues to happen. What we call sanctification would be an example of an imperfect verb tense. One was regenerated at a certain point in time; although the Holy Spirit continues to work in the person's overcoming sin.

None of the verbs related to "the man of sin" in that passage in 2 Thessalonians 2 are in the future tense. We only hit future tense when we get to verse 8: "the wicked shall be revealed..." Now people interpret "the wicked" to be an individual related to the "son of perdition". The word "the wicked" here just means "the lawless". Or "the lawlessness" is probably a more accurate translation based on verses 7 and 9. "The mystery of iniquity does already work" (at the point this was penned) and "who's coming is after the working of Satan with all lying signs and wonders." "Even him... who's coming..." isn't actually in the text. It's not an individual entity. It's a conglomerate of those whom you see "the lawlessness" in.

The manifestation of "the lawless" is "lying signs and wonders". Modern Christendom is full of "lying signs and wonders". To the generation who sees "lying signs and wonders" in the church; you know you are getting close to the end of time. Remember Satan "disguises himself as an angel of light" (2 Corinthians 11:13-14) that "if it were possible he'd deceive the very elect". (Matthew 24:24)

Now this is a manifestation that happens to greater or lesser degrees throughout New Testament history; that is until we hit the point where Satan is loosed "to deceive the nations once again". Then "the lawless" just takes over. It becomes so prevalent that Jesus asks if He will find faith on the earth when He returns. (Luke 18:18)

Now is the revealing of what it means that Judas was the son of perdition an indication of getting closer to the end? I suppose that's possible? How much 1st century believers would have understood about the roll of the son of perdition in the crucifixion? I don't know? Does what we understand about the fulfillment of prophecy related to the atonement become clearer as time goes on? For the believer; I believe the answer to that is "yes".

Yet the acceleration of the access of acquisition of Scriptural knowledge is something very much based in "material restriction" of access of studying Scripture. In centuries past; people were dependent on their memories to find passages. It isn't until we get to the invention of the printing press does it become possible to catalogue verses in concordances to be found. Yet even at that; what took diligent men lifetimes to compile can be done by a half way decent computer program in a half hour. We have much more access to Scriptural knowledge today than anyone had in the past.

Do believers at the bitter end of time, attain a level of knowledge to be able to find these pieces of Bible puzzle to be able to put them together that they explain the fulfillment of prophecy? That does appear to be the case. There is a revelatory process going on that's greatly assisted by modern technology.

Now I don't know if you think my answers are sufficient; but if you take the tools we have to be able to compare Scripture to itself; and start digging, you will find answers. Often times you'll find answers to questions you weren't even aware you would be asking! LOL It's a fascinating process.

 

[Sheila Davis]

Nope; don't mind at all if you ask questions.

Thank you I said churches teach that Judas is the son of perdition because that's what they do and they use 2nd Thessalonians. I've heard it for many decades and I just view second


The Scripture itself states the "son of perdition" is Judas. (It's not a "church teaching".)
John 17:12



To my knowledge Judas is the only person ever described in Scripture to have "Satan enter him". John 13:27

So of course, if you go back to the creation story. The angelic host was created on day one, before carbon based life was created. In the book of Job; God describes these non-carbon based entities called "angels" as having witnessed the laying of the foundation of the world. (Job 38:6-7)

Lucifer was the "covering cherub". He was a different type of angel than any other angel. Now what was he to "cover". He's described as the "roof" of the domain that he was to protect against. (Ezekiel 28) "Darkness was upon the face of the deep" (Genesis 1:2) That "darkness upon the face of the deep" is likely what Lucifer was assigned to protect the rest of creation from having been invaded by the tumultuous, rebellious "reaction" to God's "action" of creating. (You know "to every action is an equal and opposite reaction".) What was the "knowledge of good and evil" that God possessed in eternity. Yet God being the nature of what it means to be God in the first place; can't be corrupted by evil. Anything that God created though, could be. (And it was.) The fall was inevitable because of this.

Well Lucifer was the first entity to fall. He fell before Adam and Eve did. This "covering cherub" who was assigned to protect the "higher order" creation from this rebellion had succumbed to this rebellion himself. Now in similar venue as Adam (Eve was deceived but Adam wasn't.) Lucifer was not deceived. He made an intentional choice to willfully transgress what God had assigned him to. This is why in Revelation 20:1 Satan is described as "the lid" (having been torn off now) and "chained into the pit".

Move now from Lucifer to Adam. Adam is created in God's image. Judas was a descendent of Adam. The difference between men and angels is that humanity maintains the ability to make moral choices for "good". Angels don't. When they fall, their fall is complete and total. Thus the "theological difference" between "total depravity" and being "depraved totally". Humans can't reattain a position of favor with God by making correct moral choices. They do "lesson the wages of sin" that they "earn" when they do so. Fallen angels though loose the ability to make any morally right choices. This is why there is no redemption plan for angels. They are a different type of creation than humanity.

So Lucifer was "the covering cherub"; very different than any other angel and very "beautiful". He possessed sentience and intelligence. Prior to the point Adam was created; Lucifer was likely the most intelligent entity in the created world.

Now Adam was created in the image of Christ. What in the incarnation serves as the essence of Divinity that Satan can not over come? Jesus was not only human (as Adam was) he was also Divine. Jesus is two natures "created" as one entity. (The human aspect of Christ had a beginning obviously.)

So Adam comes on the scene as the expressed image of the Creator and that is the point I believe that Lucifer fell. Did Lucifer "figure out" from the creation of Adam that the incarnation would come eventually? I don't know the answer to that. Satan certainly knew though at the point God told Eve that her seed would crush the serpent's head; that the incarnation was coming.

Now take all this information and insert it into your question about Judas. At what point in history could Satan have believed he could "foiled God's plan" as it related to the material world? Lucifer knew even from before the point he fell; that when God said something would happen; that something would come to pass.

So Satan takes possession of Judas; mind you at Judas's own independent volition to allow this to happen. For what purpose? (To attempt to kill the 2nd person of the Trinity.) If that intent is not to "exalt one's self above God" I don't know what is?

Obviously though God is immortal. If the 2nd person of the Trinity had decided that he was not going to allow this severing of these two natures (Divine and human) thus "destroying" the entity that Christ was; Jesus never would have died. Obviously we know there was a purpose to that event though. (Purpose of redeeming sinners.)

So, the portion of the verse in 2 Thessalonians about "sitting in the temple of God; showing himself that he is god". The "temple" was Christ's body. Satan proved through Judas that he was capable of dominion over the created order; by destroying the humanity of the 2nd person of the Trinity. This is why Satan is called "the prince of the power of the air". Now of course God allowed this to happen for God's own reasons.

So knowing there was only ever one God-man who existed in the course of created history. Ask yourself this question. At what other time in history could Satan ever display that he is the "prince of the power of the air"? There is no human being in history who was more pivotal to kill than Jesus Christ.



Now your question here about this appearing to be something to happen in the future; can be answered by looking at the greek verbs. The verb "revealed" (man of sin revealed) is not in the future tense. It's aorist passive subjective. "Having been revealed"; which Paul specifies that in the phrase "son of perdition" which John 17:12 tells us who that is.

Now verse 6: "... that he might be revealed in his time.." That's also not future tense. It's aorist passive infinitive. Aorist passive is similar in verb function to aorist perfect. The "perfect" tense is an incident that happens in the past that has implications in the present despite the event itself is not "continually present tense". For example; Jesus died and rose from the dead. That has lasting implications today, but he's not continually dying and continually rising.

Now there is also an "imperfect tense" which is an event pegged to a certain point in history that continues to happen. What we call sanctification would be an example of an imperfect verb tense. One was regenerated at a certain point in time; although the Holy Spirit continues to work in the person's overcoming sin.

None of the verbs related to "the man of sin" in that passage in 2 Thessalonians 2 are in the future tense. We only hit future tense when we get to verse 8: "the wicked shall be revealed..." Now people interpret "the wicked" to be an individual related to the "son of perdition". The word "the wicked" here just means "the lawless". Or "the lawlessness" is probably a more accurate translation based on verses 7 and 9. "The mystery of iniquity does already work" (at the point this was penned) and "who's coming is after the working of Satan with all lying signs and wonders." "Even him... who's coming..." isn't actually in the text. It's not an individual entity. It's a conglomerate of those whom you see "the lawlessness" in.

The manifestation of "the lawless" is "lying signs and wonders". Modern Christendom is full of "lying signs and wonders". To the generation who sees "lying signs and wonders" in the church; you know you are getting close to the end of time. Remember Satan "disguises himself as an angel of light" (2 Corinthians 11:13-14) that "if it were possible he'd deceive the very elect". (Matthew 24:24)

Now this is a manifestation that happens to greater or lesser degrees throughout New Testament history; that is until we hit the point where Satan is loosed "to deceive the nations once again". Then "the lawless" just takes over. It becomes so prevalent that Jesus asks if He will find faith on the earth when He returns. (Luke 18:18)

Now is the revealing of what it means that Judas was the son of perdition an indication of getting closer to the end? I suppose that's possible? How much 1st century believers would have understood about the roll of the son of perdition in the crucifixion? I don't know? Does what we understand about the fulfillment of prophecy related to the atonement become clearer as time goes on? For the believer; I believe the answer to that is "yes".

Yet the acceleration of the access of acquisition of Scriptural knowledge is something very much based in "material restriction" of access of studying Scripture. In centuries past; people were dependent on their memories to find passages. It isn't until we get to the invention of the printing press does it become possible to catalogue verses in concordances to be found. Yet even at that; what took diligent men lifetimes to compile can be done by a half way decent computer program in a half hour. We have much more access to Scriptural knowledge today than anyone had in the past.

Do believers at the bitter end of time, attain a level of knowledge to be able to find these pieces of Bible puzzle to be able to put them together that they explain the fulfillment of prophecy? That does appear to be the case. There is a revelatory process going on that's greatly assisted by modern technology.

Now I don't know if you think my answers are sufficient; but if you take the tools we have to be able to compare Scripture to itself; and start digging, you will find answers. Often times you'll find answers to questions you weren't even aware you would be asking! LOL It's a fascinating process.

Thank you...
There are some who feel in 2nd Thessalonians *all*of the verses in 2:1-12 are speaking of Satan and his Antichrist. I agree with them. I am not saying we're right and you're wrong nor am I saying you're right and we're wrong. Pointing out different points of views.
And are you saying that the church doesn't teach Judas he is the son of perdition in 2nd Thessalonians. For decades I've heard it being taught. And I'm fully aware in the John Jesus said not one showed he lose save the son of perdition who is referred to as Judas - that I agree with.
Thank you again, I am very familiar with scripture from The book of Genesis to the last verse of Revelations. My questions was just concerning 2nd Thessalonians chapter 2:3 and reference to it being Judas.

Some links below may give a better understanding of why some feel it is referring to Satan and his Antichrist. I am not one for a lot of writing.

Who Is Paul's "Man of Sin"?

UNDERSTANDING WHO THE ANTICHRIST IS, THE SON OF PERDITION,

Livres audio et plus | Votre premier livre est gratuit! | Audible.ca

Son of perdition — Is the son of pedition Judas or the Antichrist?

 

[Carl Emerson]

Thank you...
There are some who feel in 2nd Thessalonians *all*of the verses in 2:1-12 are speaking of Satan and his Antichrist. I agree with them. I am not saying we're right and you're wrong nor am I saying you're right and we're wrong. Pointing out different points of views.
And are you saying that the church doesn't teach Judas he is the son of perdition in 2nd Thessalonians. For decades I've heard it being taught. And I'm fully aware in the John Jesus said not one showed he lose save the son of perdition who is referred to as Judas - that I agree with.
Thank you again, I am very familiar with scripture from The book of Genesis to the last verse of Revelations. My questions was just concerning 2nd Thessalonians chapter 2:3 and reference to it being Judas.

Some links below may give a better understanding of why some feel it is referring to Satan and his Antichrist. I am not one for a lot of writing.

Who Is Paul's "Man of Sin"?

UNDERSTANDING WHO THE ANTICHRIST IS, THE SON OF PERDITION,

Livres audio et plus | Votre premier livre est gratuit! | Audible.ca

Son of perdition — Is the son of pedition Judas or the Antichrist?

Just a comment...

In the scheme of things we note that spiritually there is a link between John the Baptist and Elijah.

We also know the antichrist spirit manifests in different individuals over time.

Could it be that the same spirit that entered Judas will drive the antichrist in the future.

So maybe not an either / or but a both and ???

 

[Sheila Davis]

Just a comment...

In the scheme of things we note that spiritually there is a link between John the Baptist and Elijah.

We also know the antichrist spirit manifests in different individuals over time.

Could it be that the same spirit that entered Judas will drive the antichrist in the future.

So maybe not an either / or but a both and ???

My belief is yes it's the same spirit _ it was stated in one of those links I gave.
The one that's called the devil, Lucifer, Satan, the serpent, the destroyer, the dragon, the accuser, who was once a cherubim that covereth, the Morningstar, who is temporary prince and god of this Earth, who persuaded 1/3 of the stars of heaven to follow him as he tried to overthrow heaven, failed and they were all cast down to earth ...
Reading scripture the only one that has been judged _ John 16:11

John 17:12 is referring to Judas
2nd Thessalonians 2:3 is referring to the antichrist _ The same Spirit of evil rebelliousness.
And if one thinks about it _ it couldn't be referring to Judas because Judas was already revealed and dead when Paul wrote that.

 

[The Righterzpen]

And are you saying that the church doesn't teach Judas he is the son of perdition in 2nd Thessalonians.

The statement that Judas is the son of perdition is clearly stated in Scripture. Churches who teach that, teach it because it's in the Scripture; not because it's something they made up. No where did I ever state churches don't teach that.

And if by "the church" you're referring to this being something the Roman Catholic Church teaches; well than they got that right. (They got a lot of other things wrong; but they got that right.)

There are some who feel in 2nd Thessalonians *all*of the verses in 2:1-12 are speaking of Satan and his Antichrist. I agree with them. I am not saying we're right and you're wrong nor am I saying you're right and we're wrong. Pointing out different points of views.

We are all called to be Bereans and to "search the Scriptures to know whether these things are so". If you don't know if a doctrine is right or wrong; it's not the better part of wisdom to say that you believe it. How in good conscious can you say you believe something if you don't know if it's true or not? That's not very logical.

"He who answers a matter before he hears it; it is a folly and a shame unto him." Proverbs 18:13

It's no shame to say "I don't know the answer." But it is certainly folly to say "I don't know the answer and I'm not going to search it out; I'm just going to believe what I'm told."

As far as "different points of view"? The Holy Spirit does not tell one person one truth and someone else the exact opposite. One is truth and the other isn't. It's that simple.

Now it is fair to say: "Here's what I've been researching. Here are the pieces I've found and maybe I haven't found all the pieces yet; but here's what I got!" And if new pieces of information confirm or further deny one's previous learning; the wise react accordingly.

Some links below may give a better understanding of why some feel it is referring to Satan and his Antichrist. I am not one for a lot of writing.

I'm very familiar with dispensationalism.

Of which I have several avenues of Scriptural investigation to challenge you with. I will start here though:

Take a look at every place the term "last day" is used in relation to the end of time: (get out a concordance and check me on this). Make sure you are noting "last day" and NOT "last days".

John 6:39, John 6:40, John 6:44, John 6:54 = the resurrection from the dead is on "the last day".

John 11:24. (Martha states to Jesus that she knows her brother Lazarus will rise from the dead "on the last day".) Which I pose this question to the dispensationalist; if the 1000 year millennial reign comes after the rapture; that would not be "the last day" Lazarus was raised. And also note that Jesus did not "correct" Martha's eschatology.

And why is this?
Because Martha understood that Judgement Day follows the final resurrection. There are no days after "the last day".

John 12:48 Judgement Day occurs on "the last day".

Now note this passage in Revelation 10:
4 And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.

5 And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven,

6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:

7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Note that at the point the 7th angel sounds there is "time no longer".

Now let's go look at 7th angel. The 7th angel is talked about in 3 places in Revelation. The first place (Revelation 10:7) I just posted.

Revelation 11:15 - And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

The previous verse says two woes have passed and the 3rd comes quickly. What's the 3rd woe? (Verse 18 tells us.) The "third woe" is Judgement Day.

18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Revelation 16:17 -
Now this is an interesting verse because it does NOT say these angels are sounding trumpets. They are pouring out vials of wrath.

12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.

13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

Now here's whee it gets interesting. Note, this is not the end of time because the next chapter talks about Babylon the mother of harlots. (Babylon the mother of harlots is Jerusalem. We know this because it was "where our Lord was crucified". (Revelation 11:8) Jesus was not crucified in Rome.)

We have two battles described in Scripture. "Armageddon" and "Gog and Magog".

This particular passage mentions Armageddon. Now, is this just prior to Judgement Day, or is this the crucifixion? Remember "You have not left my soul in hell...." Jesus told the thief "Today you shall be with me in paradise." What did the atonement accomplish for those who'd been atoned for who'd died prior to Jesus's death? Their souls were delivered from "Abraham's bosom" and ascended to heaven.

Was Armageddon a pictorial representation of what was happening in the spiritual realm? That appears to be the case starting in Revelation 8 - 10.

Starting in Revelation 8:6 we have 7 angels with 7 trumpets. The "great tribulation" was "7 days". Is this a pictorial description of what was going on during the atonement?

1. An angel throws a censer from the alter and throws it to earth. There's "voices, thundering, lightning and an earthquake". (John 12:29)

2. 1st angel sounds and "hail, fire, mingled with blood". The commencement of the atonement is judgement (hail / fire) but also payment for sin of Christ's blood. (commences Tuesday night at sundown.)

3. 2nd angel sounds and a "great mountain with fire" is "cast into the sea". The Lake of Fire is obviously depicted as a sea. The "burning mountain" was Mt. Sini where the law was given. Christ came to fulfill the law.

4. 3rd angel sounds and "wormwood" falls from heaven. (Satan is kicked out of heaven. John 12:31)

5. 4th angel sounds and the sun and moon go dark. (Mark 15:33)

6. An angel flies through heaven declaring "Woe, woe, woe" (3 woes. The next several verses describe these woes.

7. 5th angel sounds and an angel descends and opens the bottomless pit. All these evil spirits come out. The following verses describe those who are disobedient as being "tormented 5 months". Where those 5 months start and where they end; I'm not sure. But starting from the first new moon following the resurrection; exactly 5 months later lands on Rosh Hashanah. (The feast of trumpets.)

The conclusion of that 5 months is the end of the "first woe".

8. 6th angel sounds and "the 4 angels that hold the four winds" let the winds go. The result of letting the 4 winds go is an army in heaven. This correlates with Revelation 5 those who appear in heaven "out of great tribulation". This army slays the wicked. This is similar to language in Ezekiel 9 where those obedient to God mark on the foreheads those who are disobedient and than go through the city and slay them.

Now is this a parabolic representation of literal slaughter? It was probably (like the passage in Ezekiel) the "armies of God" marking the disobedient of that generation who's flesh would later be destroyed by the Roman army.

There is a correlation to this in the sequence of post resurrection. (Matthew 27:53) Although it's a bit unclear if those people who were bodily resurrected made their presence known on earth? Ultimately they would have ascended to the New Jerusalem.

9. Chapter 10 talks about another "mighty angel" standing with one foot on the earth and one foot on the sea. From the description of this "angel"; he looks like a theophonic figure.

At the end of this chapter, John is told that he will go and prophesy to many nations.

10. Verse 7 states that when the voice of the 7th angel sounds "that there should be time no longer".

The next chapter (11) talks about the 2 witnesses. And once they are "dead in the street" 3.5 days; they are resurrected. And the next thing that happens is the 3rd woe; which is Judgement Day. That comes right after the resurrection of the two witnesses.

Now, who are the two witnesses? They are all those who testify of the prophecy of the Book; seeming from the time it was penned until Judgment Day. Now if "a 1000 years is as a day and a day is as 1000 years"; is it mere coincidence that humanity has had written Scripture now for almost 3500 years. (We are currently 11 years short.) 2033 AD would be 3500 years. (Does that mean anything? I don't know.)

Now the 7th angel is the last to sound. So next look up "last trump". 1 Corinthians 15:52 states that the "last trump" is the end of time.

 

[The Righterzpen]

Just a comment...

In the scheme of things we note that spiritually there is a link between John the Baptist and Elijah.

We also know the antichrist spirit manifests in different individuals over time.

Could it be that the same spirit that entered Judas will drive the antichrist in the future.

So maybe not an either / or but a both and ???

Scripture does say that "spirit of anti-christ" was already in the world at the point Paul had written the passage. So I would certainly agree with the notion that what Paul is talking about is not confined to a single person; despite clearly Judas is called the son of perdition.

 

[Sheila Davis]

The statement that Judas is the son of perdition is clearly stated in Scripture. Churches who teach that, teach it because it's in the Scripture; not because it's something they made up. No where did I ever state churches don't teach that.

And if by "the church" you're referring to this being something the Roman Catholic Church teaches; well than they got that right. (They got a lot of other things wrong; but they got that right.)



We are all called to be Bereans and to "search the Scriptures to know whether these things are so". If you don't know if a doctrine is right or wrong; it's not the better part of wisdom to say that you believe it. How in good conscious can you say you believe something if you don't know if it's true or not? That's not very logical.

"He who answers a matter before he hears it; it is a folly and a shame unto him." Proverbs 18:13

It's no shame to say "I don't know the answer." But it is certainly folly to say "I don't know the answer and I'm not going to search it out; I'm just going to believe what I'm told."

As far as "different points of view"? The Holy Spirit does not tell one person one truth and someone else the exact opposite. One is truth and the other isn't. It's that simple.

Now it is fair to say: "Here's what I've been researching. Here are the pieces I've found and maybe I haven't found all the pieces yet; but here's what I got!" And if new pieces of information confirm or further deny one's previous learning; the wise react accordingly.



I'm very familiar with dispensationalism.

Of which I have several avenues of Scriptural investigation to challenge you with. I will start here though:

Take a look at every place the term "last day" is used in relation to the end of time: (get out a concordance and check me on this). Make sure you are noting "last day" and NOT "last days".

John 6:39, John 6:40, John 6:44, John 6:54 = the resurrection from the dead is on "the last day".

John 11:24. (Martha states to Jesus that she knows her brother Lazarus will rise from the dead "on the last day".) Which I pose this question to the dispensationalist; if the 1000 year millennial reign comes after the rapture; that would not be "the last day" Lazarus was raised. And also note that Jesus did not "correct" Martha's eschatology.

And why is this?
Because Martha understood that Judgement Day follows the final resurrection. There are no days after "the last day".

John 12:48 Judgement Day occurs on "the last day".

Now note this passage in Revelation 10:
4 And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.

5 And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven,

6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:

7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Note that at the point the 7th angel sounds there is "time no longer".

Now let's go look at 7th angel. The 7th angel is talked about in 3 places in Revelation. The first place (Revelation 10:7) I just posted.

Revelation 11:15 - And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

The previous verse says two woes have passed and the 3rd comes quickly. What's the 3rd woe? (Verse 18 tells us.) The "third woe" is Judgement Day.

18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Revelation 16:17 -
Now this is an interesting verse because it does NOT say these angels are sounding trumpets. They are pouring out vials of wrath.

12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.

13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

Now here's whee it gets interesting. Note, this is not the end of time because the next chapter talks about Babylon the mother of harlots. (Babylon the mother of harlots is Jerusalem. We know this because it was "where our Lord was crucified". (Revelation 11:8) Jesus was not crucified in Rome.)

We have two battles described in Scripture. "Armageddon" and "Gog and Magog".

This particular passage mentions Armageddon. Now, is this just prior to Judgement Day, or is this the crucifixion? Remember "You have not left my soul in hell...." Jesus told the thief "Today you shall be with me in paradise." What did the atonement accomplish for those who'd been atoned for who'd died prior to Jesus's death? Their souls were delivered from "Abraham's bosom" and ascended to heaven.

Was Armageddon a pictorial representation of what was happening in the spiritual realm? That appears to be the case starting in Revelation 8 - 10.

Starting in Revelation 8:6 we have 7 angels with 7 trumpets. The "great tribulation" was "7 days". Is this a pictorial description of what was going on during the atonement?

1. An angel throws a censer from the alter and throws it to earth. There's "voices, thundering, lightning and an earthquake". (John 12:29)

2. 1st angel sounds and "hail, fire, mingled with blood". The commencement of the atonement is judgement (hail / fire) but also payment for sin of Christ's blood. (commences Tuesday night at sundown.)

3. 2nd angel sounds and a "great mountain with fire" is "cast into the sea". The Lake of Fire is obviously depicted as a sea. The "burning mountain" was Mt. Sini where the law was given. Christ came to fulfill the law.

4. 3rd angel sounds and "wormwood" falls from heaven. (Satan is kicked out of heaven. John 12:31)

5. 4th angel sounds and the sun and moon go dark. (Mark 15:33)

6. An angel flies through heaven declaring "Woe, woe, woe" (3 woes. The next several verses describe these woes.

7. 5th angel sounds and an angel descends and opens the bottomless pit. All these evil spirits come out. The following verses describe those who are disobedient as being "tormented 5 months". Where those 5 months start and where they end; I'm not sure. But starting from the first new moon following the resurrection; exactly 5 months later lands on Rosh Hashanah. (The feast of trumpets.)

The conclusion of that 5 months is the end of the "first woe".

8. 6th angel sounds and "the 4 angels that hold the four winds" let the winds go. The result of letting the 4 winds go is an army in heaven. This correlates with Revelation 5 those who appear in heaven "out of great tribulation". This army slays the wicked. This is similar to language in Ezekiel 9 where those obedient to God mark on the foreheads those who are disobedient and than go through the city and slay them.

Now is this a parabolic representation of literal slaughter? It was probably (like the passage in Ezekiel) the "armies of God" marking the disobedient of that generation who's flesh would later be destroyed by the Roman army.

There is a correlation to this in the sequence of post resurrection. (Matthew 27:53) Although it's a bit unclear if those people who were bodily resurrected made their presence known on earth? Ultimately they would have ascended to the New Jerusalem.

9. Chapter 10 talks about another "mighty angel" standing with one foot on the earth and one foot on the sea. From the description of this "angel"; he looks like a theophonic figure.

At the end of this chapter, John is told that he will go and prophesy to many nations.

10. Verse 7 states that when the voice of the 7th angel sounds "that there should be time no longer".

The next chapter (11) talks about the 2 witnesses. And once they are "dead in the street" 3.5 days; they are resurrected. And the next thing that happens is the 3rd woe; which is Judgement Day. That comes right after the resurrection of the two witnesses.

Now, who are the two witnesses? They are all those who testify of the prophecy of the Book; seeming from the time it was penned until Judgment Day. Now if "a 1000 years is as a day and a day is as 1000 years"; is it mere coincidence that humanity has had written Scripture now for almost 3500 years. (We are currently 11 years short.) 2033 AD would be 3500 years. (Does that mean anything? I don't know.)

Now the 7th angel is the last to sound. So next look up "last trump". 1 Corinthians 15:52 states that the "last trump" is the end of time.

Again I know scripture very well - especially that dealing with end time prophecies.

And I apologize for not reading all of which you took time to write - my interest was kindled in your usage of using scripture 2nd Thessalonians 2:3 referring to Judas (nothing else) - strictly to 2nd Thessalonians 2: 3 and who is that scripture was referring to the son of prediction as. I apologize for asking the questions.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Again I know scripture very well - especially that dealing with end time prophecies.

And I apologize for not reading all of which you took time to write - my interest was kindled in your usage of using scripture 2nd Thessalonians 2:3 referring to Judas (nothing else) - strictly to 2nd Thessalonians 2: 3 and who is that scripture was referring to the son of prediction as. I apologize for asking the questions.

Why apologise for asking questions ???

 

[The Righterzpen]

Again I know scripture very well - especially that dealing with end time prophecies.

And I apologize for not reading all of which you took time to write - my interest was kindled in your usage of using scripture 2nd Thessalonians 2:3 referring to Judas (nothing else) - strictly to 2nd Thessalonians 2: 3 and who is that scripture was referring to the son of prediction as. I apologize for asking the questions.

Why apologise for asking questions ???

Yes, that's a good question. Why are you apologizing?

Someone posted a question about Matthew 24:34 in Semper Reformanda; which historically Reformed denominations are generally Amillennial in eschatology. (Thus the admin person's post.)

You posted responses and links to stuff that's Dispensational in nature; then "apologize" to me when I point out Scriptures that support Amillennialism; admitting that you didn't even really read my answers.

I don't know anyone in Semper Reformanda who doesn't like people asking questions, even if it's a different position on something like eschatology; but don't get offended (and don't be surprised) when someone gives you Scripture references that don't support your view.

I never tell anyone to believe what I say, just because I said it. I encourage everyone to search the Scriptures themselves. Compare the Bible to itself to find the answers to the questions you ask. Don't take for granted that any teacher you follow is telling you the truth. Be diligent. Human teachers do make mistakes and the legitimate ones are willing to learn when someone does point out those mistakes. No one's knowledge of how to put this giant puzzle together is perfect. We often "find a piece" that we think "goes over here" when actually it "goes over there".

And you can certainly facilitate this process by making good use of the online Bible study resources that contain concordances, interlinear Bibles and study helps that give other information like word roots and verb tenses. Those are very useful. There are also free ones out there that are pretty good.

I use Bible Gateway, Blue Letter Bible, Net Bible and Bible Hub. All of these are free. Bible Gateway and Bible Hub are probably the most user friendly. Blue Letter Bible is "received text" and Bible Hub is "critical text"; if one wanted to make comparisons between the two. Net Bible has a lot of scholarly note information about Hebrew and Greek linguistics that can be enlightening to read. That one also has some good cross reference material in it.

Check them out and start digging!

 

[Sheila Davis]

Yes, that's a good question. Why are you apologizing?

Someone posted a question about Matthew 24:34 in Semper Reformanda; which historically Reformed denominations are generally Amillennial in eschatology. (Thus the admin person's post.)

You posted responses and links to stuff that's Dispensational in nature; then "apologize" to me when I point out Scriptures that support Amillennialism; admitting that you didn't even really read my answers.

Dispensational in nature they supported my view and gave reason why 2nd Thessalonians 2:3 is not referring to Judas.

I don't know anyone in Semper Reformanda who doesn't like people asking questions, even if it's a different position on something like eschatology; but don't get offended (and don't be surprised) when someone gives you Scripture references that don't support your view.

Not being defensive or offensive but you haven't given me any scriptures that didn't support my view concerning who the son of perdition is in 2nd Thessalonians 2:3.

I never tell anyone to believe what I say, just because I said it. I encourage everyone to search the Scriptures themselves. Compare the Bible to itself to find the answers to the questions you ask. Don't take for granted that any teacher you follow is telling you the truth. Be diligent. Human teachers do make mistakes and the legitimate ones are willing to learn when someone does point out those mistakes. No one's knowledge of how to put this giant puzzle together is perfect. We often "find a piece" that we think "goes over here" when actually it "goes over there".

As do I never ask anyone or expect anyone to believe my views on scripture, I give views of others that support my views of other Bible studies to support my views.

And you can certainly facilitate this process by making good use of the online Bible study resources that contain concordances, interlinear Bibles and study helps that give other information like word roots and verb tenses. Those are very useful. There are also free ones out there that are pretty good.

I use Strong's concordance - I have one here at my house - as well as a different concordance forgotten who it was by, bought in the 1980s.

I use Bible Gateway, Blue Letter Bible, Net Bible and Bible Hub. All of these are free. Bible Gateway and Bible Hub are probably the most user friendly. Blue Letter Bible is "received text" and Bible Hub is "critical text"; if one wanted to make comparisons between the two. Net Bible has a lot of scholarly note information about Hebrew and Greek linguistics that can be enlightening to read. That one also has some good cross reference material in it.

I use online all that you mentioned above when I'm sharing scriptures.

Check them out and start digging!

I've been "digging" since I was a child and my first question to my uncle who was a minister and I was about seven - was who was Cain's wife, I refused to believe God would allow him to marry his immediate sister and when it said he went to the Land of Nod and knew his wife. Not asking you your opinion on who came to wife was either. I received my answer a few decades ago.

 

[The Righterzpen]

I've been "digging" since I was a child and my first question to my uncle who was a minister and I was about seven - was who was Cain's wife, I refused to believe God would allow him to marry his immediate sister and when it said he went to the Land of Nod and knew his wife. Not asking you your opinion on who came to wife was either. I received my answer a few decades ago.

Doesn't matter what my opinion, your opinion or your uncle's opinion is! What does Scripture say. Do you see anywhere in the Bible where it talks about more than one Adam and Eve created? (Romans 5:12)

Besides the fact that even secular science traces the entire human race back to two individuals.

And who's the Redeemer for those who are not the seed of Adam?