A Scriptural Look at Prophecy

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I am posting in this forum instead of the Sign Gifts forum because the latter is protected for those who believe in the gift of prophecy according to how it is practiced in Pentecostal and Charismatic churches. This is where people get up in a service and deliver a prophetic word to the people, often starting with saying, "This is what the Lord is saying." In the Pentecostal way of prophecy is to give a short, sharp message directly from God to the people, and the people are expected to accept the prophecy as coming from the heart of God. Many of these prophecies include guidance and prediction of the future in some way. The Word-Faith "prophets to the nation" tend to be more forthright in their prediction of the future and we have seen this in their prediction that Donald Trump will have a second term as President.

But on close examination of 1 Corinthians 14, which is the chapter that deals exclusively with New Testament prophecy, I have discovered some things that many Pentecostals and Charismatics have left out.

Paul says that the purpose of prophecy is for exhortation, edification and comfort to the believers (verse 3). It also involves giving thanks to God (verse 16), teaching others (verse 19), and revealing the secrets of the hearts of unbelievers who attend the meetings. Revelation is also included (verse 26). Everyone can prophesy one by one (verse 31).

So, when we view these verses, we see that what Paul is talking about is much more than someone getting and giving a "thus says the Lord" prophecy in KJV language, which is usually forgotten by the next hymn. I don't think that Paul is talking about that kind of prophecy at all.

What he is talking about is any kind of speaking that involves exhortation, building up of the people, and providing comfort, giving revelation in the form of new insights into the Scriptures, as well as giving sound doctrinal teaching. He is also including giving thanks to God, expressing praise for His wonderful works.

In a church I attended, they had what was called "body ministry". This gave the members the opportunity to go to the microphone and share what they had on their hearts as the result of their personal Bible study and prayer. This ticked all the boxes about what the type of prophecy that Paul was talking about. Actually then, different members sharing revelation, teaching, giving thanks, were in fact exhorting the people to have stronger faith in Christ, encouraging the people, and providing comfort to those who needed it. I have been in services where the pastor's message has been like a prophecy to me. And yet I have been in other services where someone has got up and giving a dramatic KJV "prophecy" that was just meaningless talk that edified no one, except providing some type of soapbox platform for the "prophet".

So, I believe that Paul's view of prophecy is consistent with "Whenever you come together, each of you has a psalm, has a teaching, has a tongue, has a revelation, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification" (verse 26). People don't have to get up and interrupt the flow of a service by giving an authoritative "Thus says the Lord" prophecy. All they have to do is to step up to the microphone when given the opportunity during the plenary sharing time, or body ministry time, to share what is on their hearts to encourage the people. In fact, this happens not only in Pentecostal and Charismatic churches, it happens in any church where people are given the opportunity to share a testimony or word of encouragement to the people. Paul did it in the synagogues he visited when he was invited to speak to the people, as well as when he gave teaching in the Christian churches he supported.

We see prophecy in the Epistles, which are now recognised as inspired New Testament Scripture.

If I give something prophetic, it is not because I say it is prophetic, but it may be prophetic for the person receiving it. All I might be doing is giving wise advice from what I know of God's Word, but because it has a specific impact on the receiver, it is prophetic to them.

So, I have changed my view on the gift of prophecy, and I think that my amended view of it is closer to what 1 Corinthians 14 says about it. I believe that the Pentecostal method of "giving prophetic words" in services is an invention that no longer seems to me as being consistent with 1 Corinthians 14.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Thus saith the Lord, or this is what the Lord says is a very old testament application. 1 Thessalonians 5:20-22 and context illustrate that all prophetic words are to be carefully considered and the good and bad of them separated, and to only listen to the good part of the message.

 

[swordsman1]

I am posting in this forum instead of the Sign Gifts forum because the latter is protected for those who believe in the gift of prophecy according to how it is practiced in Pentecostal and Charismatic churches. This is where people get up in a service and deliver a prophetic word to the people, often starting with saying, "This is what the Lord is saying." In the Pentecostal way of prophecy is to give a short, sharp message directly from God to the people, and the people are expected to accept the prophecy as coming from the heart of God. Many of these prophecies include guidance and prediction of the future in some way. The Word-Faith "prophets to the nation" tend to be more forthright in their prediction of the future and we have seen this in their prediction that Donald Trump will have a second term as President.

But on close examination of 1 Corinthians 14, which is the chapter that deals exclusively with New Testament prophecy, I have discovered some things that many Pentecostals and Charismatics have left out.

Paul says that the purpose of prophecy is for exhortation, edification and comfort to the believers (verse 3). It also involves giving thanks to God (verse 16), teaching others (verse 19), and revealing the secrets of the hearts of unbelievers who attend the meetings. Revelation is also included (verse 26). Everyone can prophesy one by one (verse 31).

So, when we view these verses, we see that what Paul is talking about is much more than someone getting and giving a "thus says the Lord" prophecy in KJV language, which is usually forgotten by the next hymn. I don't think that Paul is talking about that kind of prophecy at all.

What he is talking about is any kind of speaking that involves exhortation, building up of the people, and providing comfort, giving revelation in the form of new insights into the Scriptures, as well as giving sound doctrinal teaching. He is also including giving thanks to God, expressing praise for His wonderful works.

In a church I attended, they had what was called "body ministry". This gave the members the opportunity to go to the microphone and share what they had on their hearts as the result of their personal Bible study and prayer. This ticked all the boxes about what the type of prophecy that Paul was talking about. Actually then, different members sharing revelation, teaching, giving thanks, were in fact exhorting the people to have stronger faith in Christ, encouraging the people, and providing comfort to those who needed it. I have been in services where the pastor's message has been like a prophecy to me. And yet I have been in other services where someone has got up and giving a dramatic KJV "prophecy" that was just meaningless talk that edified no one, except providing some type of soapbox platform for the "prophet".

So, I believe that Paul's view of prophecy is consistent with "Whenever you come together, each of you has a psalm, has a teaching, has a tongue, has a revelation, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification" (verse 26). People don't have to get up and interrupt the flow of a service by giving an authoritative "Thus says the Lord" prophecy. All they have to do is to step up to the microphone when given the opportunity during the plenary sharing time, or body ministry time, to share what is on their hearts to encourage the people. In fact, this happens not only in Pentecostal and Charismatic churches, it happens in any church where people are given the opportunity to share a testimony or word of encouragement to the people. Paul did it in the synagogues he visited when he was invited to speak to the people, as well as when he gave teaching in the Christian churches he supported.

We see prophecy in the Epistles, which are now recognised as inspired New Testament Scripture.

If I give something prophetic, it is not because I say it is prophetic, but it may be prophetic for the person receiving it. All I might be doing is giving wise advice from what I know of God's Word, but because it has a specific impact on the receiver, it is prophetic to them.

So, I have changed my view on the gift of prophecy, and I think that my amended view of it is closer to what 1 Corinthians 14 says about it. I believe that the Pentecostal method of "giving prophetic words" in services is an invention that no longer seems to me as being consistent with 1 Corinthians 14.

According to scripture prophecy is God verbally speaking to the prophet in the form of a voice in their head (1 Samuel 3), or in a dream or vision (Numbers 12:6). The message is then passed onto others, usually in the form of "Thus says the Lord...." (or similar). That same pattern occurs in the New Testament eg Acts 21:10-11.

I don't see anywhere in scripture where prophecy comes from having a gut feeling, or an insight, or a thought popping into your head, or having something on your heart.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

What is the outcome then, brothers and sisters? When you assemble, each one has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a tongue, has an interpretation. All things are to be done for edification. (1 Corinthians 14:26)

God places it on our hearts to share from our gifts so we will build each other up.

 

[swordsman1]

God places it on our hearts to share from our gifts so we will build each other up.

Where does it say God places the message on our hearts?

 

[Pavel Mosko]

The Word-Faith "prophets to the nation" tend to be more forthright in their prediction of the future and we have seen this in their prediction that Donald Trump will have a second term as President.

Your off on this. Big difference in WOF attitudes and those of the Prophetic movement! They are definitely not the same movement.

I encountered this many years ago. Bill Hamon who is the biggest influence on that movement and the main leader of the Prophetic movement had a saying in regard to church movements , namely "that the leaders of the previous movement tend to persecute those of the next". And well that ended up being very true as far as prophecy goes. The WOF was very suspicious of the Prophetic movement of the 90s something I saw first hand from 2 different WOF pastors at 2 different churches.

They believed in a few people like Ken Hagin and maybe 2 other big WOF folks were prophets but tended to be against what Bill Hamon was all about. In a lot of ways the WOF was hypocritical, they insisted on a "Biblical foundation" for teaching and spoke against revelation for such things and those who did such things, except for folks like Ken Hagin who had a number of books and teachings that came from his own revelations. Some books like "Purposes, Plans and Pursuits" was almost entirely from his own revelation and experience and really had little real scriptural substance.



The interesting thing is the prophetic movement folks were much more balanced and nuanced compared to the WOF as far as Bible teaching goes! The prophetic movement really understood how people differed in terms of their call as far as living out their life, while the WOF tends to have "one size fits all" approach to their name it and claim, faith principle teaching.


Bill Hamon's Story — Christian International

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

According to scripture prophecy is God verbally speaking to the prophet in the form of a voice in their head (1 Samuel 3), or in a dream or vision (Numbers 12:6). The message is then passed onto others, usually in the form of "Thus says the Lord...." (or similar). That same pattern occurs in the New Testament eg Acts 21:10-11.

I don't see anywhere in scripture where prophecy comes from having a gut feeling, or an insight, or a thought popping into your head, or having something on your heart.

New Testament prophecy as taught by Paul has nothing in common with Old Testament prophecy where it was described as the word of God coming to the prophet. John the Baptizer was the last O.T. prophet. The prophet role died with him.

What Paul is teaching in 1 Corinthians 14 has nothing to do with O.T, style prophecy. If you, in your church, are invited to share an encouraging word to the congregation, and you share something that you learned during your personal Bible study that you know will encourage and comfort the folks, then that is the type of prophecy that Paul is talking about. When Paul wrote his letter to the Corinthians, he was using the gift of prophecy. But he wasn't writing stuff that popped into his head in the form of a voice or an impression. He was writing from what he knew from the Scriptures he had available to him, and the revelation that he has received as part of his on-going fellowship with the Lord.

This is quite a departure for me from what I had been taught in the Pentecostal movement. In the light of the dingbat prophets of the Word-Faith movement I talked with the Lord and asked for help so that I would not continue making mistakes and possibly dreaming up stuff in my own head and calling them prophecies. I then got the idea to take another look at 1 Corinthians 14, and the verse where Paul said that he would rather prophesy in church rather than speak in tongues so that he could instruct others. It was "instruct others" that caught my eye, and led me to look at the other things he said about prophecy, and it became clear to me that he was talking about anyone performing the instructing, encouraging, edifying, and comforting role in the church through preaching, teaching, sharing revelation, giving advice, counselling, etc. I came to believe that this is the way that Paul practiced the gift of prophecy, which is a lot more down to earth than someone getting up and saying "thus says the Lord".

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Your off on this. Big difference in WOF attitudes and those of the Prophetic movement! They are definitely not the same movement.

I encountered this many years ago. Bill Hamon who is the biggest influence on that movement and the main leader of the Prophetic movement had a saying in regard to church movements , namely "that the leaders of the previous movement tend to persecute those of the next". And well that ended up being very true as far as prophecy goes. The WOF was very suspicious of the Prophetic movement of the 90s something I saw first hand from 2 different WOF pastors at 2 different churches.

They believed in a few people like Ken Hagin and maybe 2 other big WOF folks were prophets but tended to be against what Bill Hamon was all about. In a lot of ways the WOF was hypocritical, they insisted on a "Biblical foundation" for teaching and spoke against revelation for such things and those who did such things, except for folks like Ken Hagin who had a number of books and teachings that came from his own revelations. Some books like "Purposes, Plans and Pursuits" was almost entirely from his own revelation and experience and really had little real scriptural substance.



The interesting thing is the prophetic movement folks were much more balanced and nuanced compared to the WOF as far as Bible teaching goes! The prophetic movement really understood how people differed in terms of their call as far as living out their life, while the WOF tends to have "one size fits all" approach to their name it and claim, faith principle teaching.


Bill Hamon's Story — Christian International

The problem is that the prophetic movement in terms of future prediction has failed. It failed to predict Covid-19, Donald Trump losing the election, the Taleban taking over of Afganistan, and the Russian invasion of Ukraine. These are major world events and yet all the prophets missed them.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

The problem is that the prophetic movement in terms of future prediction has failed. It failed to predict Covid-19, Donald Trump losing the election, the Taleban taking over of Afganistan, and the Russian invasion of Ukraine. These are major world events and yet all the prophets missed them.

Oh yeah no doubt about that.

 

[swordsman1]

New Testament prophecy as taught by Paul has nothing in common with Old Testament prophecy where it was described as the word of God coming to the prophet. John the Baptizer was the last O.T. prophet. The prophet role died with him.

I'm not sure I can see any difference between OT and NT prophets.

• They are both referred to by the same word. Paul uses the same word (prophétés) to describe NT prophets (eg 1 Cor 14:29) as he does OT prophets (eg Rom 3:21).
  
  
• NT prophets are given a "revelation" (1 Cor 14:29-30), the same as OT prophets (1 Pet 1:12)
  
  
• As in the OT, NT prophets are of high importance. 2nd only to apostles in 1 Cor 12:28.
  
  
• As in the OT, God literally spoke to Agabus.
  
  
• Directly quoted in a similar manner "Thus says the Lord…", "Thus says the Holy Spirit…" (Acts 21:10-11)
  

 

[Pavel Mosko]

So, I have changed my view on the gift of prophecy, and I think that my amended view of it is closer to what 1 Corinthians 14 says about it. I believe that the Pentecostal method of "giving prophetic words" in services is an invention that no longer seems to me as being consistent with 1 Corinthians 14.

Actually the norm of ministry that I recall from my involvement in the Prophetic movement actually fits what you are talking about as far about as far as the kind of ministry people receive in prayer lines, coming before the altar in prayer, after glows, or prophetic presbytery at prophetic conferences.


I would add there is an extra ministry in the Bible that you did not mention that they do as well, alluded to in the following passage.

1 TIMOTHY 4:14
KJ21
Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of hands by the presbytery.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I'm not sure I can see any difference between OT and NT prophets.

• They are both referred to by the same word. Paul uses the same word (prophétés) to describe NT prophets (eg 1 Cor 14:29) as he does OT prophets (eg Rom 3:21).
  
  
• NT prophets are given a "revelation" (1 Cor 14:29-30), the same as OT prophets (1 Pet 1:12)
  
  
• As in the OT, NT prophets are of high importance. 2nd only to apostles in 1 Cor 12:28.
  
  
• As in the OT, God literally spoke to Agabus.
  
  
• Directly quoted in a similar manner "Thus says the Lord…", "Thus says the Holy Spirit…" (Acts 21:10-11)

Of course, we are talking about the ideal when the default is that the church is unified and the Holy Spirit is fully active across the whole range of Christian churches. In that environment, the role of prophet would be more clearly defined.

But with the confusion caused by the Word-Faith dingbat prophets, the waters are well and truly muddied. When I was a younger believer in the Pentecostal movement in the early 1970s, the gift of prophecy was more easily judged, and error was easily detected and dealt with.

But things crept into the movement by the late 1970s that blurred things, and people received "new revelation" in the belief that there was more than what the Scriptures told them. After the start of the 1980s, prophecy, especially personal, adopted a more manipulative attribute with unscrupulous "prophets" using the gift to influence their will on vulnerable and unwary members. This gave rise to prophecies saying one thing and the Scriptures telling the opposite. Some got around this anomaly by teaching that the written Scriptures were "the dead letter" while what was being shown as prophetic revelation was of the Spirit.

What then happened in the Pentecostal and Charismatic movements was the rise of divergent beliefs and doctrines about the way the Holy Spirit moved. Two examples of this were Bethel and Hillsong and the Kansas Prophets, along with the rise of Kenny Copeland and Benny Hinn. The final result was that the Charismatic movement became a confused mess, and this is aptly described in John MacArthur's book, "Strange Fire".

I can imagine you chuckling when I am appearing to support John MacArthur's book, but, honestly, he is correctly describing the mess that the modern ultra-Charismatics exemplified by the Word-Faith movement have got themselves into. The two strict traditional Pentecostal pastor served with in the late 1960s and early 1970s would be turning over in their graves if they knew what was happening in the Charismatic movement today.

I guess that if you went over my posts on CF from 2000 onwards until today, you will see that I have gone through some very radical changes in my views about how the gifts of the Spirit are used in the churches. Although I am not a Cessationist, I know how and why the sign gifts mostly ceased by the 4th Century. They experienced the same corruptions as we are seeing today. I predict that most Pentecostal and Charismatic churches will not be teaching the use of the sign gifts in 50 to 100 years time, because of the absolute mess and deception that is happening in the movement in these times.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I would add there is an extra ministry in the Bible that you did not mention that they do as well, alluded to in the following passage.

1 TIMOTHY 4:14
KJ21
Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of hands by the presbytery.

I would say that the prophecy in this case would be similar to the commissioning of Paul and Barnabas when the Holy Spirit said, "Separate unto me, Paul and Barnabas for the work I have for them." That commissioning would have come through members of the group exercising the gift of prophecy. It is obvious that Luke recognised the total involvement of the Holy Spirit in the use of the gift, in that he did not mention who gave the prophecy, but that it certainly was the Holy Spirit who spoke through that person or persons.

The elders commissioning someone for the ministry by the laying on of hands was and is accepted practice. It is this that gives that minister the credentials for the work God has for him. Because the early church was unified, Timothy's commissioning would have been recognised across all churches, even though he was commissioned to be bishop over the Ephesian regional fellowships.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

I would say that the prophecy in this case would be similar to the commissioning of Paul and Barnabas when the Holy Spirit said, "Separate unto me, Paul and Barnabas for the work I have for them." That commissioning would have come through members of the group exercising the gift of prophecy. It is obvious that Luke recognised the total involvement of the Holy Spirit in the use of the gift, in that he did not mention who gave the prophecy, but that it certainly was the Holy Spirit who spoke through that person or persons.

The elders commissioning someone for the ministry by the laying on of hands was and is accepted practice. It is this that gives that minister the credentials for the work God has for him. Because the early church was unified, Timothy's commissioning would have been recognised across all churches, even though he was commissioned to be bishop over the Ephesian regional fellowships.

Yes to all that. The point that someone like Hamon would make is the aspect of prophecy imparting a gift or blessing to someone. I would also add some other kinds of scriptures to that notion like the patriarchal blessings seen in the book of Genesis as being a bit like that as well. There are some other examples, like Balak trying to hire Balaam to curse Israel only for him to repeatedly pronounce prophetic blessings concerning Israel and so on.

The prophecy of Simeon in Luke 2: 25-35 also is a little like this in context, but not in effect (being a blessing and prophecy for Joseph, Mary and other bystanders, including himself).

 

[NBB]

i don't know, but i think that a prophet with the prophetic gift has the 'ability' to say things that come directly by revelation from God, is not saying what you learned and whats on your hearts after bible study, now if some people think they are prophets and say 'the lord says' but the lord said nothing, they are cheating themselves and others and this is 'inmaturity' or even sin. just my little opinion.

I have experienced what i call 'great discerment' or 'prophetic gift' with some pastors, they knew stuff about me i told nobody, very specific stuff, even of 20 years prior, all related with my relationship with God, it was not what i 'ate today' or nothing like that of course.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

i don't know, but i think that a prophet with the prophetic gift has the 'ability' to say things that come directly by revelation from God, is not saying what you learned and whats on your hearts after bible study, now if some people think they are prophets and say 'the lord says' but the lord said nothing, they are cheating themselves and others and this is 'inmaturity' or even sin. just my little opinion.

The Holy Spirit has inspired everything He has and will inspire in the pages of the Bible. What else is there?

 

[NBB]

The Holy Spirit has inspired everything He has and will inspire in the pages of the Bible. What else is there?

Yes but i mean that if you have the gift of prophecy, you say accurate stuff from God, not 'whats in your heart' and this possibly will get approved by people because the prophet usually nails it, be spiritual problem or some future thing or some words of comfort that will impact idk, the prophet will probably 'impress' with his 'discerment'. just my opinion. This happened to me with a pastor like i said. I saw this happening to me, and heard testimonies from other people too, about 'exortation confort' etc.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Yes but i mean that if you have the gift of prophecy, you say accurate stuff from God, not 'whats in your heart' and this possibly will get approved by people because the prophet usually nails it, be spiritual problem or some future thing or some words of comfort that will impact idk, the prophet will probably 'impress' with his 'discerment'. just my opinion. This happened to me with a pastor like i said. I saw this happening to me, and heard testimonies from other people too, about 'exortation confort' etc.

The issue is knowing whether what comes to mind is from God, or just from our own thoughts, especially when 9 out of 10 impressions come from the world, flesh, or the devil.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Where does it say God places the message on our hearts?

John 14:26 tells us that the Holy Spirit brings back to remembrance the things God has said to us.

Philippians 4:7 and context indicates that our hearts can be protected by the peace of God that transcends what we can understand.

Proverbs 3:5-6 indicates that trusting in God with your heart results in being guided by Him, such guidance results in messages from God being placed in the heart.

 

[swordsman1]

John 14:26 tells us that the Holy Spirit brings back to remembrance the things God has said to us.

Philippians 4:7 and context indicates that our hearts can be protected by the peace of God that transcends what we can understand.

Proverbs 3:5-6 indicates that trusting in God with your heart results in being guided by Him, such guidance results in messages from God being placed in the heart.

I'm not sure how any of those verses can be construed as God placing messages on our heart.

The proverb says he will guide our paths (ie our circumstance) not our hearts. I think this is a more relevant proverb:

Prov 28:26 "One who trusts in his own heart is a fool"