Free Will - God's test that all mankind flunks

Ligurian

Cro-Magnon
Apr 21, 2021
3,589
536
America
✟22,234.00
Country
United States
Faith
Pagan
Marital Status
Private
The First Gospel mentions nothing about the justification or imputation doctrines.
So... what can I do with those 13 letters that weren't even written to people like me?

I can't do doublethink = hold two opposing views at the same time.
I keep Jesus' works and words to His Discipled Apostles, and use them as my yardstick.

John 17:6 I have manifested Thy name unto the men which Thou gavest Me out of the world: Thine they were and Thou gavest them Me; and they have kept Thy word. 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on Me through their word;

The Gospel of the Kingdom commands repentance and forgiveness, regarding the Commandments given in the Sermon on the Mount... and for any other place Jesus commanded His Discipled Apostles, including the Revelation.
I take the words of the Risen Lord literally, just as I take the words and deeds quoted by Matthew and John, 1 Peter and James literally.
And I take the 10 Commandments and the Covenant of Promise literally, too... which include the Sabbath and the circumcision requirement.
I can't truncate them according to Paul, or I'd have to exclude most of the Bible.

Galatians 2:7
Sabbath, a perpetual covenant

Try to retype your post without the words "Me" or "I". Good luck.

Kind of odd, this... Especially in a thread called free will.

Let me just say this: I choose to believe what I believe, because nobody's going to hell for me if I let them make my choice for me; so that I will stand or fall by what I myself believe to be true. No world-soul can change my opinions for me.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

childeye 2

Well-Known Member
Aug 18, 2018
4,960
2,885
66
Denver CO
✟202,913.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Kind of odd, this... Especially in a thread called free will.

Let me just say this: I choose to believe what I believe, because nobody's going to hell for me if I let them make my choice for me; so that I will stand or fall by what I myself believe to be true. No world-soul can change my opinions for me.
If I may ask, how would you describe a free will from your own view of the Gospel?
 
Upvote 0

Ligurian

Cro-Magnon
Apr 21, 2021
3,589
536
America
✟22,234.00
Country
United States
Faith
Pagan
Marital Status
Private
If I may ask, how would you describe a free will from your own view of the Gospel?

The ability to stand or fall entirely by one's own actions. Matthew 7:24-27, Revelation 3:8-10.
The help that God gives mankind is that which He's always given: The Law and the Prophets... the last Prophet being Jesus, Deuteronomy 18:18-19, and John 12:44-50, Matthew 21:37, Revelation 22:16, KJV.
I know thy works, says the Risen Lord. Not My will but Thine, says Jesus.
God never wanted sock-puppets, no matter what mankind has been led to believe.
Mankind cannot be given the power to blame God for the path on which his own actions lead him. Choose ye this day, whom ye will serve, said Joshua.
I follow the Gospel of the Kingdom. Matthew 4:17 ... Galatians 2:7
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

SkyWriting

The Librarian
Site Supporter
Jan 10, 2010
37,279
8,500
Milwaukee
✟410,948.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Let me just say this: I choose to believe what I believe, because nobody's going to hell for me if I let them make my choice for me; so that I will stand or fall by what I myself believe to be true. No world-soul can change my opinions for me.

LoL! I swear, you're just doing it on purpose now. Nice work.
 
Upvote 0

Ligurian

Cro-Magnon
Apr 21, 2021
3,589
536
America
✟22,234.00
Country
United States
Faith
Pagan
Marital Status
Private
LoL! I swear, you're just doing it on purpose now. Nice work.

Voicing a personal opinion means using a personal pronoun... in my opinion.
____________________________________
Now, back to the OP:

"In these words of Pelagius (ad Demetr. 2 init.) we recognize distinctly his moral temperament. (a) God has commanded man to do that which is good; he must, therefore, have the ability to do it."--Seeburg, Text-book of the History of Doctrines, p.333
 
Upvote 0

JIMINZ

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2017
6,600
2,358
79
Southern Ga.
✟157,715.00
Country
United States
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
To the contrary, the “sinner” can and does “choose to be righteous” by choosing a life in Jesus. Jesus’ message to the disciples in John was for them to follow his teachings and in doing so, they would be made righteous through Him and by Him.

“Being addicted” to sin does not mean the person doesn’t freely choose sin. The “addicted” person is still making a choice to remain addicted, to be addicted, to choose sin, and they are the cause of said choices, they choices are made by them, and they aren’t forced to so decide.

There isn’t any Biblical support for your comments.


So, according to your logic, does a person after choosing Jesus, continue to sin?
 
Upvote 0

NotreDame

Domer
Site Supporter
Jan 24, 2008
9,566
2,493
6 hours south of the Golden Dome of the University
✟510,142.00
Country
United States
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
And this is even more work than before, but



Only the regenerate, who by faith are counted righteous with the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ, are counted/credited as righteous (sinless), just as Abraham was counted/credited as righteous (sinless) by faith (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:2-3).

1) it is not exegesis.

To the contrary, my post is exactly exegesis. Unlike your argument, I rely upon the Greek meanings, context, word usage, and you do not.

After too many posts of your bloviating, you’ve yet to construct an argument invoking the Greek meaning, word usage, and context, essentially your argument is devoid of any supporting evidence. Your argument is nothing more than you said so. That is a vacuous argument.

2) Nor is the word of God based in or on human rationale, philosophical analysis or historical precedent, on which you rely.

Oh the irony, coming from someone who has YET to perform an analysis of the Greek meaning of the words, word usage, and context to establish the Word of God supports what you’ve said it says.

Factually, the Word of God isn’t based upon your modus operandi of your type it, therefore it means it nonsense.

And human rationale IS necessary to understanding some parts of the Bible. The fact you think otherwise explains a lot. Human rationale IS needed for many of the end time metaphors and allegories. Human rationale is necessary to properly understand some of Paul’s new use of Greek words precisely because it was new. Human rationale is necessary to understand ambiguous parts of the Bible.

3) Nor did you do any research on Pelagius, or the philosophers in regard to "freewill," instead denying any such connection existed, when the evidence to the contrary is abundant.

And your evidence? Show my error, because all you do is make asinine comments, like the one above, and pathetically slink away from substantiating anything you’ve said with any exposition as to the text of the Bible supporting what you’ve said. You cannot be bothered to look up the meaning of the words, word usage, context, or grasp how and why metaphors are used.

Post the evidence for the above comment. I KNOW the evidence, I spent hours and semesters covering this subject matter in undergrad. And I know the evidence you say exist doesn’t exists

So, ante up with the evidence, I’ll be impressed if you do because it doesn’t exist. I’m right about Pelagius’ view. I’m right as to how Greek and Roman philosophy did not have a view of free will like Pelagius.

If you cannot cite the evidence the reason is obvious, it doesn’t exist, and is nothing more than you just having the liberty to type whatever you want with the conspicuous failure of any evidence for your view.

4) You labor the meaning of the Greek in the word "commit," as well as Jesus' meaning in "slave" and "free," and do not address the real issue: "freedom to be sinless," and the irrefutable evidence of its impossibility; i.e., no one is actually sinless and, therefore, no one has total "freewill" as Pelagius conceives it.

Better and preferred to your conspicuous lack of any laboring to support your messy logic.

When the Greek meaning of the words in the verse demonstrate your view is baloney, do you counter with an evidentiary argument of the meaning of the words in the verse? No. No. Context? No. Word usage? No.

Instead, you sidestep the evidence just repeat your claim.

freedom to be sinless," and the irrefutable evidence of its impossibility; i.e., no one is actually sinless and, therefore, no one has total "freewill" as Pelagius conceives it.

This is your “human rationale” and your human rationale means nothing. Sauce for the goose, sauce for the gander.

But there’s another problem with your “human rationale,” it is a nonsequitur. A double whammy of being your irrelevant “human rationale” and a human rationale with flawed reasoning. Quite a feat.

no one is actually sinless and, therefore, no one has total "freewill" as Pelagius conceives it.”

The conclusion, in bold, doesn’t follow. So much for deductive reasoning. Why? The unstated assumption is everyone has sin and that sin was not the result of their freedom of choosing sin. Yet, it is equally plausible “no one is actually sinless” precisely and exactly because they used their “total freedom” to sin!

So your post is non-responsive to the real issue: man's free will is limited.

Oh you are very incorrect. My reply IS responsive to your feeble attempt at supporting your claim “man's free will is limited” with verses. I explained and argued why those verses lend no support for your claim “man's free will is limited.” Hence, my reply is responsive.

While I’m at it, your entire argument isn’t responsive or lucid as it is your burden to support your claim “man’s free will is limited.” Your claim, your burden. There’s been no verse cited or quoted supporting your view. None. I’ve argued and explained why those verses do not support your view, hence my reply is responsive.

Freewill" in the sense of which it is used philosophically; i.e., "the power to execute all moral choices," is not in the NT.

If there is a “philosophical” meaning that isn’t it!!!! Anyone who spends a day in a philosophy class would know that! What is your source, the evidence, for your bizarre “philosophically” meaning? It is time to actually use evidence for your claims.

In fact, it is denied in the NT, where no unregenerate person is counted as righteous (sinless). Humans have only a limited free will/power (philosophically called "free agency")

Is it denied in the NT? Where, not the verses you cited to, as the the Greek meaning of those NT verses lend no support for what you’ve claimed.

And in the OT, it simply meant voluntary action, used only in reference to offering sacrifices.
Power to accomplish was not part of its meaning.

Oh really? And this is so because you’ve typed it? Where’s the evidence for the above, you know the text of the OT and the meaning of those Hebrew words that support the above claim? Once again, more of you claiming what you want while providing NOTHING from the Bible and the meaning of the words from the Bible that supports your view.

Your argument is worse than those advocating geocentrism. At least geocentrists do cite to verses and evidende from the Bible for their point of view, despite being misguided as you about its meaning.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

NotreDame

Domer
Site Supporter
Jan 24, 2008
9,566
2,493
6 hours south of the Golden Dome of the University
✟510,142.00
Country
United States
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
"

How Pelagius’s philosophy of free will shaped European culture

Oops! . . .sounds like Pelagius engaged philosophy after all.

Ha ha ha ha…so it’s “philosophy” because the author of the article chose the word “philosophy” in his title? Ha ha ha…that has to be so because the author doesn’t argue in the article that Pelagius’ view of free will IS philosophical. The author of the article even tells the reader that Pelagius’ view was a theological nature as it addressed a “theological” problem that was also a “general and perennial” problem. Hence, since Pelagius was addressing a theological” problem it isn’t surprising for the author to note “Many contemporary clerics in Christian churches in the West could fairly be called Pelagians. He might deserve that fourth plinth in Trafalgar Square.”

“Oops…sounds like” the article is not doesn’t assert Pelagius’ view IS philosophical, the author has some content showing the author thinks of Pelagius’ view as theological.


Original sin" is your idea, not mine.

That is factually impossible as I not only disputed the idea of original sin I used the verses in Roman’s to argue against the idea where OS is “we” have sinned in Adam.

In addition to Romans 5:12-21, you also simply don't understand Romans 5:18:
"The result of one trespass was condemnation for all men" in the first Adam.

Oh, because you say so? All you post, ad
nauseum, is the argument from
you say so. Like above.

There’s absolutely no exploration of the Greek meaning of the words by you from the Romans verse, no word usage analysis, nothing, to support your commentary.

“So then, as through one offense the result was condemnation to all mankind, so also through one act of righteousness the result was justification of life to all mankind.”

This is a continuation of Paul’s discussion of the preceding verses I did provide an exegesis of in my prior post. The verse doesn’t inform the reader of how we are condemned because of Adam. The answer lies, in part, in the preceding verses that I did provide an exegesis for some. Being spiritually separated by God because of Adam’s sin, we are also alienated from God at birth because of Adam’s sin. We are born spiritually dead and alienated from God because of Adam’s sin. The result is we are born with a nature contrary to God, and we will all freely choose to act consistent with that nature.

Are you sure about that?

Shows how much research you did. . .

Five seconds on search produced the following on Pelagius:
Pelagius defines free will as follows: “But we say that man is always able both to sin and not to sin, so that we confess ourselves to have always a free will.” Thus, free will consists of: 1) the ability to sin (posse peccare) and 2) the ability not to sin (posse non peccare). These two abilities or powers are always equally at man's disposal."

This shows how much research you did not do because none of the above tells the reader Pelagius’ view is as you said, the “philosophical sense.”

And yet man is not free to be sinless. See post #821, above.

Yet man freely chooses not to be sinless, consistent with Pelagius’ view of free will.


Really? You think other people venturing their own opinion is evidence your opinion is correct? Seriously? One site was kind enough to say, “While descriptions may vary, I find the following explanation to be helpful.”

It is nothing more than other peoples’ mere opinion that agrees with your view. What a mountain of circular reasoning. You are arguing your opinion is right because people or someone at those links has expressed the same opinion. Your argument: Clare says I am right because these people or someone at these links expressed the same opinion as I have. Their opinion is evidence my opinion is correct! That is an overdose of bad reasoning, illogical reasoning.

Compounding the circular reasoning is that the links are devoid of engaging in any textual analysis of the verses to establish those verses say and support their view. What a joke.

Now, it's your turn to spend another 15 seconds determining if Pelagius' notion of "free will" was in agreement with the philosophers. You might start here regarding Aristotle, Plato and Cicero:
See more on plato.stanford.edu

First, something “in agreement with the philosophers” doesn’t render it “philosophical.” Do you know various parts of the OT and NT has “agreement with the philosophers”? By your logic those parts of the OT and NT are “philosophical.”

Second, do you realize how different Pelagius, view of free will is from that of Plato, Cicero, and Aristotle?

Concerning the Foreknowledge of God and the Free Will of Man ... Cicero
So much for your evidentiary expertise. . .as well as understanding of the NT.

Ah, you’d make sense if something at the link refuted or was contrary to my “evidentiary expertise.” So much for your “expertise.”

Cicero was refuting the idea of “fate” determining all our actions and choices. Cicero disputed the idea that all of our choices and actions are determined but Cicero could not and did not commit himself to the idea that all decisions and actions by people are free. That is why, at the link, Augustine is addressing Cicero’s view of any higher power’s foreknowledge determines all future choices and since Cicero reject the idea of determinism of all future choices, Cicero rejected any deity’s foreknowledge. Yet, Cicero didn’t and would not fully commit to the view all human choices were the product of free will. You’d know that if you had read Cicero’s fragmented work in its subject. Hence, you’ve shown your lack of evidentiary expertise here. Your lack of any textual analysis of the NT to support your view illuminates whose understanding of the NT is anemic.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
25,096
6,100
North Carolina
✟276,593.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
To the contrary, my post is exactly exegesis. Unlike your argument, I rely upon the Greek meanings, context, word usage, and you do not.

After too many posts of your bloviating, you’ve yet to construct an argument invoking the Greek meaning, word usage, and context, essentially your argument is devoid of any supporting evidence. Your argument is nothing more than you said so. That is a vacuous argument.



Oh the irony, coming from someone who has YET to perform an analysis of the Greek meaning of the words, word usage, and context to establish the Word of God supports what you’ve said it says.

Factually, the Word of God isn’t based upon your modus operandi of your type it, therefore it means it nonsense.

And human rationale IS necessary to understanding some parts of the Bible. The fact you think otherwise explains a lot. Human rationale IS needed for many of the end time metaphors and allegories. Human rationale is necessary to properly understand some of Paul’s new use of Greek words precisely because it was new. Human rationale is necessary to understand ambiguous parts of the Bible.



And your evidence? Show my error, because all you do is make asinine comments, like the one above, and pathetically slink away from substantiating anything you’ve said with any exposition as to the text of the Bible supporting what you’ve said. You cannot be bothered to look up the meaning of the words, word usage, context, or grasp how and why metaphors are used.

Post the evidence for the above comment. I KNOW the evidence, I spent hours and semesters covering this subject matter in undergrad. And I know the evidence you say exist doesn’t exists

So, ante up with the evidence, I’ll be impressed if you do because it doesn’t exist. I’m right about Pelagius’ view. I’m right as to how Greek and Roman philosophy did not have a view of free will like Pelagius.

If you cannot cite the evidence the reason is obvious, it doesn’t exist, and is nothing more than you just having the liberty to type whatever you want with the conspicuous failure of any evidence for your view.



Better and preferred to your conspicuous lack of any laboring to support your messy logic.

When the Greek meaning of the words in the verse demonstrate your view is baloney, do you counter with an evidentiary argument of the meaning of the words in the verse? No. No. Context? No. Word usage? No.

Instead, you sidestep the evidence just repeat your claim.



This is your “human rationale” and your human rationale means nothing. Sauce for the goose, sauce for the gander.

But there’s another problem with your “human rationale,” it is a nonsequitur. A double whammy of being your irrelevant “human rationale” and a human rationale with flawed reasoning. Quite a feat.

no one is actually sinless and, therefore, no one has total "freewill" as Pelagius conceives it.”

The conclusion, in bold, doesn’t follow. So much for deductive reasoning. Why?
The unstated assumption is everyone has sin and that sin was not the result of their freedom of choosing sin.
Consult Romans 5:18.
Yet, it is equally plausible “no one is actually sinless” precisely and exactly because they used their “total freedom” to sin!

Oh you are very incorrect. My reply IS responsive to your feeble attempt at supporting your claim “man's free will is limited” with verses. I explained and argued why those verses lend no support for your claim “man's free will is limited.” Hence, my reply is responsive.

While I’m at it, your entire argument isn’t responsive or lucid as it is your burden to support your claim “man’s free will is limited.” Your claim, your burden. There’s been no verse cited or quoted supporting your view. None. I’ve argued and explained why those verses do not support your view, hence my reply is responsive.



If there is a “philosophical” meaning that isn’t it!!!! Anyone who spends a day in a philosophy class would know that! What is your source, the evidence, for your bizarre “philosophically” meaning? It is time to actually use evidence for your claims.
Is it denied in the NT? Where, not the verses you cited to, as the the Greek meaning of those NT verses lend no support for what you’ve claimed.
The NT denies any one is sinless (Romans 5:18).
Oh really? And this is so because you’ve typed it? Where’s the evidence for the above,
Present the words "free will" apart from the sacrifices, or the teaching of "free will" from the OT.
you know the text of the OT and the meaning of those Hebrew words that support the above claim? Once again, more of you claiming what you want while providing NOTHING from the Bible and the meaning of the words from the Bible that supports your view.

Your argument is worse than those advocating geocentrism. At least geocentrists do cite to verses and evidende from the Bible for their point of view, despite being misguided as you about its meaning.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
25,096
6,100
North Carolina
✟276,593.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Ha ha ha ha…so it’s “philosophy” because the author of the article chose the word “philosophy” in his title? Ha ha ha…that has to be so because the author doesn’t argue in the article that Pelagius’ view of free will IS philosophical. The author of the article even tells the reader that Pelagius’ view was a theological nature as it addressed a “theological” problem that was also a “general and perennial” problem. Hence, since Pelagius was addressing a theological” problem it isn’t surprising for the author to note “Many contemporary clerics in Christian churches in the West could fairly be called Pelagians. He might deserve that fourth plinth in Trafalgar Square.”

“Oops…sounds like” the article is not doesn’t assert Pelagius’ view IS philosophical, the author has some content showing the author thinks of Pelagius’ view as theological.




That is factually impossible as I not only disputed the idea of original sin I used the verses in Roman’s to argue against the idea where OS is “we” have sinned in Adam.



Oh, because you say so? All you post, ad
nauseum, is the argument from
you say so. Like above.
There’s absolutely no exploration of the Greek meaning of the words by you from the Romans verse, no word usage analysis, nothing, to support your commentary.
Reinventing the wheel. . .
“So then, as through one offense the result was condemnation to all mankind, so also through one act of righteousness the result was justification of life to all mankind.”

This is a continuation of Paul’s discussion of the preceding verses I did provide an exegesis of in my prior post. The verse doesn’t inform the reader of how we are condemned because of Adam. The answer lies, in part, in the preceding verses that I did provide an exegesis for some.
Being spiritually separated by God because of Adam’s sin, we are also alienated from God at birth because of Adam’s sin. We are born spiritually dead and alienated from God because of Adam’s sin. The result is we are born with a nature contrary to God, and we will all freely choose to act consistent with that nature.
You call it "separation, alienation" of all men; Scripture calls it "condemnation" of all men.
(Romans 5:18)
This shows how much research you did not do because none of the above tells the reader Pelagius’ view is as you said, the “philosophical sense.”
Yet man freely chooses not to be sinless, consistent with Pelagius’ view of free will.
No one has the moral power (free will) to be sinless.
Really? You think other people venturing their own opinion is evidence your opinion is correct? Seriously? One site was kind enough to say, “While descriptions may vary, I find the following explanation to be helpful.”

It is nothing more than other peoples’ mere opinion that agrees with your view. What a mountain of circular reasoning. You are arguing your opinion is right because people or someone at those links has expressed the same opinion. Your argument: Clare says I am right because these people or someone at these links expressed the same opinion as I have. Their opinion is evidence my opinion is correct! That is an overdose of bad reasoning, illogical reasoning.

Compounding the circular reasoning is that the links are devoid of engaging in any textual analysis of the verses to establish those verses say and support their view. What a joke.



First, something “in agreement with the philosophers” doesn’t render it “philosophical.” Do you know various parts of the OT and NT has “agreement with the philosophers”? By your logic those parts of the OT and NT are “philosophical.”

Second, do you realize how different Pelagius, view of free will is from that of Plato, Cicero, and Aristotle?



Ah, you’d make sense if something at the link refuted or was contrary to my “evidentiary expertise.” So much for your “expertise.”

Cicero was refuting the idea of “fate” determining all our actions and choices. Cicero disputed the idea that all of our choices and actions are determined but Cicero could not and did not commit himself to the idea that all decisions and actions by people are free. That is why, at the link, Augustine is addressing Cicero’s view of any higher power’s foreknowledge determines all future choices and since Cicero reject the idea of determinism of all future choices, Cicero rejected any deity’s foreknowledge. Yet, Cicero didn’t and would not fully commit to the view all human choices were the product of free will. You’d know that if you had read Cicero’s fragmented work in its subject. Hence, you’ve shown your lack of evidentiary expertise here. Your lack of any textual analysis of the NT to support your view illuminates whose understanding of the NT is anemic.
 
Last edited:
  • Agree
Reactions: Mark Quayle
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Uber Genius

"Super Genius"
Aug 13, 2016
2,919
1,243
Kentucky
✟56,826.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
Why would the question even come up? Free will, if we ever had it, is in Heaven, when we are perfectly one with God, as far as I can tell, yet it is not even a question there. Who would want to be independent of God, we who are made for him, and not for ourselves? IN HIM is our perfect state.
Surrounded by thousands of prescriptions and proscriptions in almost every page of scripture, and subjunctive conditional rewards and punishments implicit or explicit in every one of these commands, and yet "Man has no free will," still gets not only affirmed but "likes".
 
Upvote 0

Mark Quayle

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist
Site Supporter
May 28, 2018
13,092
5,667
68
Pennsylvania
✟788,636.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Widowed
Surrounded by thousands of prescriptions and proscriptions in almost every page of scripture, and subjunctive conditional rewards and punishments implicit or explicit in every one of these commands, and yet "Man has no free will," still gets not only affirmed but "likes".
Frankly, the notion that man's free will choices are not logically a result of other causes, is simply mind-boggling. Again, there are no little "first causes" running about the face of the planet.

Nobody, not Calvin and not Luther and not Shakespeare (read Macbeth when you get the chance), is saying we don't actually choose, except those who seem to think if God chooses, then we don't, while their own doctrine stares them in the face — that if God KNEW what they would choose, but willfully chose to create them anyway, he indeed did choose for them to choose whatever they choose.

And beyond that, to deny the notion that we are nothing and can do nothing apart from Christ, is to deny Scripture. SMH
 
Upvote 0

Uber Genius

"Super Genius"
Aug 13, 2016
2,919
1,243
Kentucky
✟56,826.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
Frankly, the notion that man's free will choices are not logically a result of other causes, is simply mind-boggling. Again, there are no little "first causes" running about the face of the planet
Since I've made no claims about causes but rather the freedom to use rationality in our decision making, this seems like a strawman.

Nobody, not Calvin and not Luther and not Shakespeare (read Macbeth when you get the chance), is saying we don't actually choose, except those who seem to think if God chooses, then we don't, while their own doctrine stares them in the face — that if God KNEW what they would choose, but willfully chose to create them anyway, he indeed did choose for them to choose whatever they choose.

Calvin in his Institutes describes the world being a result of God's providence rather than human action, and so there are no free acts, period.

Luther's focus was more narrow, especially in his "Bondage of the Will." In Luther's discourse with Erasmas seems to be suggesting that humans have no free will, with regard to attaining righteousness. They do however have free will regarding civil matters. But your earlier comment about free will if we ever had is, " in heaven," seems to reject Luther's notion that although men can't even investigate salvation much less freely chose God's gift.

I reject that lesser limitation on free will as well.

Read Macbeth ??? Didn't know that Shakespeare's plays were commentaries on free will. And although I enjoy Shakespeare, I don't see how that is germane to my claims.

And beyond that, to deny the notion that we are nothing and can do nothing apart from Christ, is to deny Scripture. SMH
Since I haven't commented on free will with regards to salvation, how have I denied anything like what you suggest above?

I have simply asked for an explanation of if then else wording that appears all throughout the text of Old and New Testament text. This wording assumes we have freedom to act and follow God's commands, or not follow same, if the latter then judgement, if the former, then blessings. With over a thousand verses appearing this way why on Earth would anyone assume we have no ability to perform what God has commanded us to do?

So again Calvin makes everything that ever happened an act of God (men are marionettes on his view). Luther thinks men are marionettes with regard to salvation. I'm closer to Luther than Erasmas but I differ in that I take Luke 13:34 at face value. Jesus makes the claim that men not God are responsible for the broken relationship. This text obliterates many of the Reformers reliance on the doctrine of total depravity. There is some level of freedom to respond to God's gift of salvation, or not to respond. Luther is right to say it is not earned... but goes beyond the text in limiting man's ability to respond to God's call.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

BNR32FAN

He’s a Way of life
Site Supporter
Aug 11, 2017
22,488
7,346
Dallas
✟885,119.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I propose that God offered free will choice to the originally sinless couple, simply to give an eternal display that any created being (whether angelic or human), when offered the option of choice, unless supernaturally upheld and enabled by God, will eventually and inevitably succumb to making a choice for evil, thus resulting in death and separation from God's perfection. Only God the Creator Himself can be trusted with this dangerous power of free will; One who can be counted on to NEVER default into making an evil choice with that power.

What makes you think that only Adam & Eve had free will? They sinned just like the rest of us.
 
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
25,096
6,100
North Carolina
✟276,593.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Since I've made no claims about causes but rather the freedom to use rationality in our decision making, this seems like a strawman.

Calvin in his Institutes describes the world being a result of God's providence rather than human action, and so there are no free acts, period.

Luther's focus was more narrow, especially in his "Bondage of the Will." In Luther's discourse with Erasmas seems to be suggesting that humans have no free will, with regard to attaining righteousness. They do however have free will regarding civil matters. But your earlier comment about free will if we ever had is, " in heaven," seems to reject Luther's notion that although men can't even investigate salvation much less freely chose God's gift.

I reject that lesser limitation on free will as well.

Read Macbeth ??? Didn't know that Shakespeare's plays were commentaries on free will. And although I enjoy Shakespeare, I don't see how that is germane to my claims.


Since I haven't commented on free will with regards to salvation, how have I denied anything like what you suggest above?

I have simply asked for an explanation of if then else wording that appears all throughout the text of Old and New Testament text. This wording assumes we have freedom to act and follow God's commands, or not follow same, if the latter then judgement, if the former, then blessings. With over a thousand verses appearing this way why on Earth would anyone assume we have no ability to perform what God has commanded us to do?
So again Calvin makes everything that ever happened an act of God (men are marionettes on his view). Luther thinks men are marionettes with regard to salvation. I'm closer to Luther than Erasmas but I differ in that I take Luke 13:34 at face value. Jesus makes the claim that men not God are responsible for the broken relationship. This text obliterates many of the Reformers reliance on the doctrine of total depravity. There is some level of freedom to respond to God's gift of salvation, or not to respond. Luther is right to say it is not earned... but goes beyond the text in limiting man's ability to respond to God's call.
Luke 13:34 - "I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing."

Are the unregenerate ever willing apart from the grace of God?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
25,096
6,100
North Carolina
✟276,593.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Free will tends to be a subject treated as a sort of sacred cow that none dare look at disparagingly.

Isaiah 55:9 tells us, "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." So what would naturally seem to us to be a subject that we should esteem and cherish (like our option to choose), God more than likely has different thoughts than ours about it.
I propose that God offered free will choice to the originally sinless couple, simply to give an eternal display that any created being (whether angelic or human), when offered the option of choice, unless supernaturally upheld and enabled by God, will eventually and inevitably succumb to making a choice for evil, thus resulting in death and separation from God's perfection. Only God the Creator Himself can be trusted with this dangerous power of free will; One who can be counted on to NEVER default into making an evil choice with that power.

Free will handed to fallen creatures is a double-edged sword that we wield to our own destruction. It would seem that heaven, as the final purified state for us, will include the removal of all impulses to choose anything other than God's perfect will. Anything less than being totally submerged in God's will would be to live precariously at risk for another fall into sin. To be thus exposed to the possibility of another fall would not be a restful state to remain in for all eternity.

Humanity has devised pejorative terms for such a perfected state; terms such as "mindless robot", "slave", "the Borg mentality", etc.. Christ Himself was not averse to claiming total subjection to the Father's will, saying "I do always those things that please him", and "Not my will, but thine be done". Yet we do not despise Christ for voicing this total merging of His own will with that of the Father. Why should this be something repugnant when it comes to the idea of our having free will stripped from us in the final perfected state?
Said Luther to Erasmus: "Your thoughts of God are too human."
 
Upvote 0

Uber Genius

"Super Genius"
Aug 13, 2016
2,919
1,243
Kentucky
✟56,826.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
Luke 13:34 - "I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing."

Are the unregenerate ever willing apart from the grace of God?
So you are saying what? Jesus is wrong to have stated this passage because it puts responsibility on man? "But YOU WERE NOT WILLING," seems to have a subject that is human and a verb form "to will." God (Jesus speaking) has longed ...so God desires but man was not willing.

Again, this passage is one of hundreds that falsifies "No free will." Further, it demonstrates that we don't have a world where, "God always gets what he wants" (falsifying Calvin's view of providence).

This is a defeater for the total depravity view. One needs to engage it, and explain it. Feel free to quote whomever you like. But we are called to be able to handle the data of scripture not reduce and eliminate those scriptures that don't fit into our world view (as we all do from time to time).

Clearly I don't think man is able to present themselves as sinless so as to make their reliance on Christ's sacrifice unnecessary! But I do think they have the freedom to engage the claims and accept them as rational and true. The HS/human mix of inputs to human decisions and actions seems to me to be underdetermined by the scriptures. My claim is that it isn't not solely human will and not soley HS but a blend...further our walk and maturity in Christ also seems to be a function of our action and HS action.

This salvific blend in fact seems to be we have freedom to comprehend God's offer and respond or reject it. We don't have any ability to earn salvation. So that certainly separates me from Erasmus, but to be fair Luther would have called me a heretic and at least assaulted me for quoting Luke 13:34.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

3 Resurrections

That's 666 YEARS, folks
Aug 21, 2021
1,838
294
Taylors
✟84,420.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
What makes you think that only Adam & Eve had free will? They sinned just like the rest of us.

Of course, sin is still sin no matter who performs a sinful act of disobedience to God. But Adam and Eve's condition at creation was different than ours. Their free-will choice to sin originated from an as-yet still sinless condition. They had a blank slate to begin with - a probationary status - contrary to us.

We, on the other hand, are conceived under Adam, our fallen representative, and we all physically die because of that association with him. Our choices to sin emerge from that contaminated condition. It takes God stepping in to change that condition before we can lift our eyes in faith toward Him.
 
Upvote 0

Mark Quayle

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist
Site Supporter
May 28, 2018
13,092
5,667
68
Pennsylvania
✟788,636.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Widowed
Since I've made no claims about causes but rather the freedom to use rationality in our decision making, this seems like a strawman.

If your definition of freedom only involves rationality, as in, "the ability to act at one's own discretion", not something more like, "the power of acting without the constraint of influences or predestining", then we have no quarrel.

Since you promoted the term "freewill" in your post, and objected to "no free will", with rather some degree of attitude, I took you to think as most the others concerning "free will" that claim God gave man some ability to decide quite apart from their personal location in the chain of causality. If I was mistaken, I apologize. But I'm still not convinced I was.

Calvin in his Institutes describes the world being a result of God's providence rather than human action, and so there are no free acts, period.
Who said "there are no free acts, period"? Did you draw that from what Calvin said, or did Calvin say that? If Calvin, what did he mean by 'free acts'? Calvin does not deny choice. He denies the strength of our influence and will vs God's. God makes a choice —it will happen. We make a choice —not so much.

Luther's focus was more narrow, especially in his "Bondage of the Will." In Luther's discourse with Erasmas seems to be suggesting that humans have no free will, with regard to attaining righteousness. They do however have free will regarding civil matters. But your earlier comment about free will if we ever had is, " in heaven," seems to reject Luther's notion that although men can't even investigate salvation much less freely chose God's gift.

Luther's gratitude toward God and his exulting in God's grace gave him the focus of the bondage of the will of sinners. He is right in that the will of the flesh is always toward sin, and apart from the grace of God, the sinner CANNOT choose God. He is also right that the redeemed believer has the ability to choose either one. To the matter of salvation he was monergist. But the grace of God continues regardless: apart from that continuing grace, we are still nothing.

In other words, at least from my perspective both men believed the same thing as far as the freedom of the will —they just had a different part of it to talk about.

"In Heaven" is a reference to after-death, not pre-conception. There, perhaps, if we ever have it.... But I see no reason the matter will even be considered. We will not exist, apart from Christ.

I reject that lesser limitation on free will as well.
I didn't see in what you copied of my post to what you were referring here. Maybe just the idea that man can choose apart from any constraint? Excellent.

Read Macbeth ??? Didn't know that Shakespeare's plays were commentaries on free will. And although I enjoy Shakespeare, I don't see how that is germane to my claims.

MacBeth is a king who is told by "The Fates" that something will happen, upon which news he sets out to forestall such an awful future and in doing so, he causes it. It is a play on (yeah, I know pun, there (or wait —is it?)) the notion that our will can accomplish anything that isn't already sure to happen.

Shakespeare seems to think, like me, that we freely choose to do what we were going to do all along, whether we knew of it or not. To me, judging by the nature of God and of cause-and-effect, this applies to both elect and the ultimately condemned, saved and unsaved. The saved may have ability to choose either sin or obedience, which obedience the unsaved do not have the ability to do, but the saved and unsaved alike still do every detail, precisely as predestined by God.

Thus, both God, and the human, cause, but God predestined it. The human fulfilled it.

Since I haven't commented on free will with regards to salvation, how have I denied anything like what you suggest above?

Your post promoted the term "Freewill", and that at some consternation that some would "like" a comment promoting NO "Freewill". What did you expect me to think?

I have simply asked for an explanation of if then else wording that appears all throughout the text of Old and New Testament text. This wording assumes we have freedom to act and follow God's commands, or not follow same, if the latter then judgement, if the former, then blessings. With over a thousand verses appearing this way why on Earth would anyone assume we have no ability to perform what God has commanded us to do?

I would then lump you with the rest of the freewillers who are of the philosophical position that the command implies the ability to obey. It is a false assumption, and the Bible does not teach it. The command only puts the choice before us. If our inclinations cause us to will to disobey, we will not obey. Pretty simple, it seems to me.

So again Calvin makes everything that ever happened an act of God (men are marionettes on his view). Luther thinks men are marionettes with regard to salvation. I'm closer to Luther than Erasmas but I differ in that I take Luke 13:34 at face value. Jesus makes the claim that men not God are responsible for the broken relationship. This text obliterates many of the Reformers reliance on the doctrine of total depravity. There is some level of freedom to respond to God's gift of salvation, or not to respond. Luther is right to say it is not earned... but goes beyond the text in limiting man's ability to respond to God's call.

Did Calvin call them marionettes, or is that your assessment of what Calvin said? Did Luther call them marionettes, or is that your assessment of what Luther said? Or was it maybe Dave Hunt?

Luke 13:34 What broken relationship? Do you mean to imply that the lost were at some earlier time in an unbroken relationship with God?

But if this verse proves what you seem to think it does, I could make your point with many such verses (For example, the choice set before Ninevah includes what God's plans are should they not repent.) But it doesn't. It merely describes what would have happened had man done what God describes.

Again, I do not say that the future does not depend on man's choices. In fact, I happily claim that man's choices are real, and do have real, even eternal, results. This by no means implies that God has not chosen for those results to happen by use of man's choices.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

3 Resurrections

That's 666 YEARS, folks
Aug 21, 2021
1,838
294
Taylors
✟84,420.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
I would then lump you with the rest of the freewillers who are of the philosophical position that the command implies the ability to obey. It is a false assumption, and the Bible does not teach it. The command only puts the choice before us. If our inclinations cause us to will to disobey, we will not obey. Pretty simple, it seems to me

Very much agree with this point you have made above, which I have underlined...
 
Upvote 0