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God’s Definition of Forgiveness

bling

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When sincere Christians differ, it mostly has to do with differences in their assumptions including differences in the definitions of the same words their using.

“Forgiveness” is one of those words we have different definitions for that causes “doctrinal” differences between sincere Christians.

I feel Christ is giving us Deity’s definition for “forgiveness” in Matt. 18:21-35, “The Parable of the Unmerciful Servant”.

Most commentaries give us what the parable does not say and only the ending “Moral to the Story” without getting into the factual details and explain what appears to be God taking back His forgiving.

Just prior to the parable we have:

Matt. 18: 21 Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother or sister who sins against me? Up to seven times?” 22 Jesus answered, “I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.”

Peter asks a good question and seems generous by asking is it seven times, since three times is the Old Testament was given.

Christ makes a huge change by saying 77 times (virtually saying: “always”), so when the disciples immediately think “How is this change going to impact my life” they will go on to “ How can I keep from being taken advantage of by brothers and sisters?”

Jesus knowing their thinking, so He will address in a parable their problem with His previous answer, by giving them the true definition for “forgiveness”.

First off: This debt is totally unbelievably huge, no one has that kind of money to lend, no one could get into anywhere near this kind of “debt”, and there was no way to make that kind of payment. It is actually hard to believe one person could even spend this much money in a life time in the first century.

Matt 18:25 “Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered…” Here we know the Master knew there is no way to pay this debt.

Matt 18: 26 “…‘Be patient with me,’ he begged, ‘and I will pay back everything.’” This servant is not asking for unconditional forgiveness, but “more time”, with the promise of paying it back in full, but the Master is not an idiot, the Master said there is no way to pay this debt, and since this servant has been entrusted with and spent already 10,000 talents, he knows he cannot earn that amount. The servant is lying to the Master and may be lying to himself.

When the Master: canceled (forgave) the debt and let him go, what did the servant “hear” (think) and possibly believe: “Oh the Master accepted my offer”, “I got time”, “The Master is stupid”, “I did OK”, “The Master does not care about the money”?

Luke 7: 36-50. Christ teaches us this truism: “He that is forgiven much Loves much” so Godly type Love would come automatically if a person was forgiven of an unbelievable huge Debt meaning he will automatically receiving an unbelievable huge Love (Godly type Love), so how is it possible for this “forgiven” servant to not Love one of the Master’s servants and treat him graciously?

Matt. 18: 34 In anger his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed. There is no other debt mentioned so this debt has to be referring to the debt the Master forgave, but if the debt is unconditionally forgiven how can the Master talk about the servant needing to pay it back in full a forgiven debt?

If we take all these Biblical truisms and allow them to define “Forgiveness” instead of taking our definition of forgiveness and force us to make an acceptation for God (Allow God to mislead us (lie)) Deity’s definition will resolve these apparent Biblical contradictions.

There is more to our having God’s forgiveness, than God just unconditional forgiving us, but this “more” will not mean God’s forgiving is conditional.

The “conditional” part for the potential receiver of forgiveness is found in completing the definition of forgiveness and not in the part the forgiver plays (God).

In order to complete the definition of Biblical forgiveness the person being forgiven has to humble accept that forgiveness as pure, undeserved charity.

The unmerciful servant did not humbly accept the Master’s unconditional forgiving as pure undeserved charity, so the transaction of forgiveness was not completed. We know this because he did not Love much and he still owes the money.

Again, it is not the Master taking His unconditional forgiveness back, but forgiveness itself by definition did not happen.

Look back at the Prodigal son:

When did the Father, first forgive His young son?

When did the Father, let the son know he was being unconditionally forgiven?

When did the young son humbly accept the Father’s unconditional forgiveness as pure undeserved charity?

When was the son just willing to humbly accept the Father’s unbelievable, undeserved, unconditional charity?

Are we all already forgiven by God, yet some are still not accepting that charitable gift as pure undeserved charity?

As forgivers our responsibility does not begin and end with our forgiving our debtors, the parable shows there is more to it, we need to make sure the person being forgiven understands forgiveness and accepts the forgiveness as pure undeserved charity, so they can Love all the more.
 
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Halbhh

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Halbhh

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Matt. 18: 34 In anger his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed. There is no other debt mentioned so this debt has to be referring to the debt the Master forgave, but if the debt is unconditionally forgiven how can the Master talk about the servant needing to pay it back in full a forgiven debt?

Yes, this reminds us of the crucial message Christ said with the prayer He instructed us to pray each day:

9“Pray, then, in this way:
‘Our Father who is in heaven,
Hallowed be Your name.
10‘Your kingdom come.
Your will be done,
On earth as it is in heaven.
11‘Give us this day our daily bread.
12‘And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13‘And do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from evil. [For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.’]

14 “For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 “But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.

This is so clear, and so crucial to hear. Grace will not save those who refuse to forgive others (who long hold a grudge).

Now, we may think (reasonably) that anyone who truly believes is realizing the incredible Grace that is given to them, to forgive them of the huge weight of their years of accumulated sins (a vast sum, like unto 10,000 gold pieces) == something we could never earn ==

....and once a person realizes how much they have been forgiven, then if they have that in mind, it's very easy to forgive serious wrongs done against oneself by others in one's past (including a more recent past like just yesterday or an hour ago).

But if a person doesn't look to Christ, doesn't remember/see/have in their mind Christ's amazing love for us of suffering on the cross for our forgiveness, then without looking to Him, it's much harder to forgive some wrongs (some wrongs a much less easy to forgive, when one is without Christ).

When did the Father, let the son know he was being unconditionally forgiven? -- Even meeting the prodigal son on the road, the Father communicated forgiveness, even before the son reached home.
We are forgiven as soon as we confess (admit our wrong to God) -- 1 John 1:8 Context: If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

The message to us all, is always to repent, and (re)turn to God in faith. Matthew 4:17 From that time on Jesus began to preach, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near."

And yes, it's amazing grace, that 'pure undeserved charity' as you put it. :)
 
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fhansen

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When sincere Christians differ, it mostly has to do with differences in their assumptions including differences in the definitions of the same words their using.

“Forgiveness” is one of those words we have different definitions for that causes “doctrinal” differences between sincere Christians.

I feel Christ is giving us Deity’s definition for “forgiveness” in Matt. 18:21-35, “The Parable of the Unmerciful Servant”.

Most commentaries give us what the parable does not say and only the ending “Moral to the Story” without getting into the factual details and explain what appears to be God taking back His forgiving.

Just prior to the parable we have:

Matt. 18: 21 Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother or sister who sins against me? Up to seven times?” 22 Jesus answered, “I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.”

Peter asks a good question and seems generous by asking is it seven times, since three times is the Old Testament was given.

Christ makes a huge change by saying 77 times (virtually saying: “always”), so when the disciples immediately think “How is this change going to impact my life” they will go on to “ How can I keep from being taken advantage of by brothers and sisters?”

Jesus knowing their thinking, so He will address in a parable their problem with His previous answer, by giving them the true definition for “forgiveness”.

First off: This debt is totally unbelievably huge, no one has that kind of money to lend, no one could get into anywhere near this kind of “debt”, and there was no way to make that kind of payment. It is actually hard to believe one person could even spend this much money in a life time in the first century.

Matt 18:25 “Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered…” Here we know the Master knew there is no way to pay this debt.

Matt 18: 26 “…‘Be patient with me,’ he begged, ‘and I will pay back everything.’” This servant is not asking for unconditional forgiveness, but “more time”, with the promise of paying it back in full, but the Master is not an idiot, the Master said there is no way to pay this debt, and since this servant has been entrusted with and spent already 10,000 talents, he knows he cannot earn that amount. The servant is lying to the Master and may be lying to himself.

When the Master: canceled (forgave) the debt and let him go, what did the servant “hear” (think) and possibly believe: “Oh the Master accepted my offer”, “I got time”, “The Master is stupid”, “I did OK”, “The Master does not care about the money”?

Luke 7: 36-50. Christ teaches us this truism: “He that is forgiven much Loves much” so Godly type Love would come automatically if a person was forgiven of an unbelievable huge Debt meaning he will automatically receiving an unbelievable huge Love (Godly type Love), so how is it possible for this “forgiven” servant to not Love one of the Master’s servants and treat him graciously?

Matt. 18: 34 In anger his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed. There is no other debt mentioned so this debt has to be referring to the debt the Master forgave, but if the debt is unconditionally forgiven how can the Master talk about the servant needing to pay it back in full a forgiven debt?

If we take all these Biblical truisms and allow them to define “Forgiveness” instead of taking our definition of forgiveness and force us to make an acceptation for God (Allow God to mislead us (lie)) Deity’s definition will resolve these apparent Biblical contradictions.

There is more to our having God’s forgiveness, than God just unconditional forgiving us, but this “more” will not mean God’s forgiving is conditional.

The “conditional” part for the potential receiver of forgiveness is found in completing the definition of forgiveness and not in the part the forgiver plays (God).

In order to complete the definition of Biblical forgiveness the person being forgiven has to humble accept that forgiveness as pure, undeserved charity.

The unmerciful servant did not humbly accept the Master’s unconditional forgiving as pure undeserved charity, so the transaction of forgiveness was not completed. We know this because he did not Love much and he still owes the money.

Again, it is not the Master taking His unconditional forgiveness back, but forgiveness itself by definition did not happen.

Look back at the Prodigal son:

When did the Father, first forgive His young son?

When did the Father, let the son know he was being unconditionally forgiven?

When did the young son humbly accept the Father’s unconditional forgiveness as pure undeserved charity?

When was the son just willing to humbly accept the Father’s unbelievable, undeserved, unconditional charity?

Are we all already forgiven by God, yet some are still not accepting that charitable gift as pure undeserved charity?

As forgivers our responsibility does not begin and end with our forgiving our debtors, the parable shows there is more to it, we need to make sure the person being forgiven understands forgiveness and accepts the forgiveness as pure undeserved charity, so they can Love all the more.
Yes, forgiveness is fruitless unless accepted, and unless we're changed by it, by the love that is revealed by it. So, unless we share that same love, unless we forgive others as well, we won't be forgiven
 
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com7fy8

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As forgivers our responsibility does not begin and end with our forgiving our debtors, the parable shows there is more to it, we need to make sure the person being forgiven understands forgiveness and accepts the forgiveness as pure undeserved charity, so they can Love all the more.
Along with this . . . in case you agree :) that this agrees with what you are saying >

"Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking be put away from you, with all malice. And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you." (Ephesians 4:31-32)

So, God wants us to forgive "even as God". To me, this means lovingly and generously.

And I think you are saying the person being forgiven then needs to become a cup running over to lovingly forgive in the way you have forgiven that person. So, yes the person needs to love much after being forgiven.

And the forgiving is not grudging. But we put away "bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking, with all malice", so we can forgive kindly and lovingly and tenderly and feed the good example of this to the forgiven person.
 
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Tolworth John

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As forgivers our responsibility does not begin and end with our forgiving our debtors, the parable shows there is more to it, we need to make sure the person being forgiven understands forgiveness and accepts the forgiveness as pure undeserved charity, so they can Love all the more.

The inital servant pleaded for mercy and was shown enormous mercy, but he did not show mercy to another servant who pleaded to him for mercy.
It was because of his lack of love that he lost the mercy extended to him by his Lord.

Two points.
1/ there was repentance for causing offence/being in debt/a sinner

2 the mercy recieved is to be extended to those who also repent.


Forgiveness is conditional on repentance.
 
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bling

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The inital servant pleaded for mercy and was shown enormous mercy, but he did not show mercy to another servant who pleaded to him for mercy.
It was because of his lack of love that he lost the mercy extended to him by his Lord.

Two points.
1/ there was repentance for causing offence/being in debt/a sinner

2 the mercy recieved is to be extended to those who also repent.


Forgiveness is conditional on repentance.
First off: the first servant did not plead for “mercy” specifically, he in his own mind may have through more time was a reasonable, because we know he was not thinking and/or speaking logically by saying he would pay it all back.

The first servant’s pride might have been too great for him to plead for charity.

God is merciful, because that is who God is (Love itself). The servant is the one refusing to accept God’s mercy/charity as pure undeserving charity, since he is only asking for more time.

Righteous forgiveness the kind we are to extend to everyone is totally unconditional, but what I tried to explain with the OP was by the definition of Biblical forgiveness the person receiving the forgiveness has a part to play, so it is not the Master (God) taking His forgiving back, but the transaction of forgiveness in the first place was never completed. God forgave the first servant unconditionally but there are certain conditions found in the definition of Biblical forgiveness that must be met for forgiveness to take place.

The first servant could have repented, but once he reaches judgement and has not accepted the Master’s/God’s forgiveness correctly it is to late. God Loved and had mercy for this servant to the end, but the servant did not accept it.
 
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Clare73

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When sincere Christians differ, it mostly has to do with differences in their assumptions including differences in the definitions of the same words their using.

“Forgiveness” is one of those words we have different definitions for that causes “doctrinal” differences between sincere Christians.

I feel Christ is giving us Deity’s definition for “forgiveness” in Matt. 18:21-35, “The Parable of the Unmerciful Servant”.

Most commentaries give us what the parable does not say and only the ending “Moral to the Story” without getting into the factual details and explain what appears to be God taking back His forgiving.

Just prior to the parable we have:

Matt. 18: 21 Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother or sister who sins against me? Up to seven times?” 22 Jesus answered, “I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.”

Peter asks a good question and seems generous by asking is it seven times, since three times is the Old Testament was given.

Christ makes a huge change by saying 77 times (virtually saying: “always”), so when the disciples immediately think “How is this change going to impact my life” they will go on to “ How can I keep from being taken advantage of by brothers and sisters?”

Jesus knowing their thinking, so He will address in a parable their problem with His previous answer, by giving them the true definition for “forgiveness”.

First off: This debt is totally unbelievably huge, no one has that kind of money to lend, no one could get into anywhere near this kind of “debt”, and there was no way to make that kind of payment. It is actually hard to believe one person could even spend this much money in a life time in the first century.

Matt 18:25 “Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered…” Here we know the Master knew there is no way to pay this debt.

Matt 18: 26 “…‘Be patient with me,’ he begged, ‘and I will pay back everything.’” This servant is not asking for unconditional forgiveness, but “more time”, with the promise of paying it back in full, but the Master is not an idiot, the Master said there is no way to pay this debt, and since this servant has been entrusted with and spent already 10,000 talents, he knows he cannot earn that amount. The servant is lying to the Master and may be lying to himself.

When the Master: canceled (forgave) the debt and let him go, what did the servant “hear” (think) and possibly believe: “Oh the Master accepted my offer”, “I got time”, “The Master is stupid”, “I did OK”, “The Master does not care about the money”?

Luke 7: 36-50. Christ teaches us this truism: “He that is forgiven much Loves much” so Godly type Love would come automatically if a person was forgiven of an unbelievable huge Debt meaning he will automatically receiving an unbelievable huge Love (Godly type Love), so how is it possible for this “forgiven” servant to not Love one of the Master’s servants and treat him graciously?

Matt. 18: 34 In anger his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed. There is no other debt mentioned so this debt has to be referring to the debt the Master forgave, but if the debt is unconditionally forgiven how can the Master talk about the servant needing to pay it back in full a forgiven debt?

If we take all these Biblical truisms and allow them to define “Forgiveness” instead of taking our definition of forgiveness and force us to make an acceptation for God (Allow God to mislead us (lie)) Deity’s definition will resolve these apparent Biblical contradictions.

There is more to our having God’s forgiveness, than God just unconditional forgiving us, but this “more” will not mean God’s forgiving is conditional.

The “conditional” part for the potential receiver of forgiveness is found in completing the definition of forgiveness and not in the part the forgiver plays (God).
In order to complete the definition of Biblical forgiveness the person being forgiven has to humble accept that forgiveness as pure, undeserved charity. The unmerciful servant did not humbly accept the Master’s unconditional forgiving as pure undeserved charity, so the transaction of forgiveness was not completed. We know this because he did not Love much and he still owes the money. Again, it is not the Master taking His unconditional forgiveness back, but forgiveness itself by definition did not happen.

Look back at the Prodigal son:

When did the Father, first forgive His young son?

When did the Father, let the son know he was being unconditionally forgiven?

When did the young son humbly accept the Father’s unconditional forgiveness as pure undeserved charity?

When was the son just willing to humbly accept the Father’s unbelievable, undeserved, unconditional charity?

Are we all already forgiven by God, yet some are still not accepting that charitable gift as pure undeserved charity?

As forgivers our responsibility does not begin and end with our forgiving our debtors, the parable shows there is more to it, we neBed to make sure the person being forgiven understands forgiveness and accepts the forgiveness as pure undeserved charity, so they can Love all the more.
That would be bling's definition of forgiveness.

Biblically: "forgiveness" is an accounting term meaning "cancellation of debt."

Our debt to God's justice is cancelled (forgiven) by faith in the person and atoning sacrifice (blood, Romans 3:25) of Jesus Christ for the remission of our sin, whereby God cancels (forgives) our sin debt because it has been paid on the cross by his one and only Son.

Biblically: the only requirement for complete forgiveness is faith, not some kind of response by works.

.
 
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Mark Quayle

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When sincere Christians differ, it mostly has to do with differences in their assumptions including differences in the definitions of the same words their using.

“Forgiveness” is one of those words we have different definitions for that causes “doctrinal” differences between sincere Christians.

I feel Christ is giving us Deity’s definition for “forgiveness” in Matt. 18:21-35, “The Parable of the Unmerciful Servant”.

Most commentaries give us what the parable does not say and only the ending “Moral to the Story” without getting into the factual details and explain what appears to be God taking back His forgiving.

Just prior to the parable we have:

Matt. 18: 21 Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother or sister who sins against me? Up to seven times?” 22 Jesus answered, “I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.”

Peter asks a good question and seems generous by asking is it seven times, since three times is the Old Testament was given.

Christ makes a huge change by saying 77 times (virtually saying: “always”), so when the disciples immediately think “How is this change going to impact my life” they will go on to “ How can I keep from being taken advantage of by brothers and sisters?”

Jesus knowing their thinking, so He will address in a parable their problem with His previous answer, by giving them the true definition for “forgiveness”.

First off: This debt is totally unbelievably huge, no one has that kind of money to lend, no one could get into anywhere near this kind of “debt”, and there was no way to make that kind of payment. It is actually hard to believe one person could even spend this much money in a life time in the first century.

Matt 18:25 “Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered…” Here we know the Master knew there is no way to pay this debt.

Matt 18: 26 “…‘Be patient with me,’ he begged, ‘and I will pay back everything.’” This servant is not asking for unconditional forgiveness, but “more time”, with the promise of paying it back in full, but the Master is not an idiot, the Master said there is no way to pay this debt, and since this servant has been entrusted with and spent already 10,000 talents, he knows he cannot earn that amount. The servant is lying to the Master and may be lying to himself.

When the Master: canceled (forgave) the debt and let him go, what did the servant “hear” (think) and possibly believe: “Oh the Master accepted my offer”, “I got time”, “The Master is stupid”, “I did OK”, “The Master does not care about the money”?

Luke 7: 36-50. Christ teaches us this truism: “He that is forgiven much Loves much” so Godly type Love would come automatically if a person was forgiven of an unbelievable huge Debt meaning he will automatically receiving an unbelievable huge Love (Godly type Love), so how is it possible for this “forgiven” servant to not Love one of the Master’s servants and treat him graciously?

Matt. 18: 34 In anger his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed. There is no other debt mentioned so this debt has to be referring to the debt the Master forgave, but if the debt is unconditionally forgiven how can the Master talk about the servant needing to pay it back in full a forgiven debt?

If we take all these Biblical truisms and allow them to define “Forgiveness” instead of taking our definition of forgiveness and force us to make an acceptation for God (Allow God to mislead us (lie)) Deity’s definition will resolve these apparent Biblical contradictions.

There is more to our having God’s forgiveness, than God just unconditional forgiving us, but this “more” will not mean God’s forgiving is conditional.

The “conditional” part for the potential receiver of forgiveness is found in completing the definition of forgiveness and not in the part the forgiver plays (God).

In order to complete the definition of Biblical forgiveness the person being forgiven has to humble accept that forgiveness as pure, undeserved charity.

The unmerciful servant did not humbly accept the Master’s unconditional forgiving as pure undeserved charity, so the transaction of forgiveness was not completed. We know this because he did not Love much and he still owes the money.

Again, it is not the Master taking His unconditional forgiveness back, but forgiveness itself by definition did not happen.

Look back at the Prodigal son:

When did the Father, first forgive His young son?

When did the Father, let the son know he was being unconditionally forgiven?

When did the young son humbly accept the Father’s unconditional forgiveness as pure undeserved charity?

When was the son just willing to humbly accept the Father’s unbelievable, undeserved, unconditional charity?

Are we all already forgiven by God, yet some are still not accepting that charitable gift as pure undeserved charity?

As forgivers our responsibility does not begin and end with our forgiving our debtors, the parable shows there is more to it, we need to make sure the person being forgiven understands forgiveness and accepts the forgiveness as pure undeserved charity, so they can Love all the more.
I would like to know: When did it become acceptable hermeneutics to take details of the parables to learn doctrinal fact? The parable is a story, given to make a point.
 
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Tolworth John

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First off: the first servant did not plead for “mercy” specifically, he in his own mind may have through more time was a reasonable, because we know he was not thinking and/or speaking logically by saying he would pay it all back.

The first servant’s pride might have been too great for him to plead for charity.

God is merciful, because that is who God is (Love itself). The servant is the one refusing to accept God’s mercy/charity as pure undeserving charity, since he is only asking for more time.

Righteous forgiveness the kind we are to extend to everyone is totally unconditional, but what I tried to explain with the OP was by the definition of Biblical forgiveness the person receiving the forgiveness has a part to play, so it is not the Master (God) taking His forgiving back, but the transaction of forgiveness in the first place was never completed. God forgave the first servant unconditionally but there are certain conditions found in the definition of Biblical forgiveness that must be met for forgiveness to take place.

The first servant could have repented, but once he reaches judgement and has not accepted the Master’s/God’s forgiveness correctly it is to late. God Loved and had mercy for this servant to the end, but the servant did not accept it.


Our example is God and Jesus, neither forgive without repentance.
 
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bling

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That would be bling's definition of forgiveness.

Biblically: "forgiveness" is an accounting term meaning "cancellation of debt."

Our debt to God's justice is cancelled (forgiven) by faith in the person and atoning sacrifice (blood, Romans 3:25) of Jesus Christ for the remission of our sin, whereby God cancels (forgives) our sin debt because it has been paid on the cross by his one and only Son.

Biblically: the only requirement for complete forgiveness is faith, not some kind of response by works.

.
Clare,
You are not addressing Jesus' explanation of the Parable in which the Master (God) forgives (as you say cancelled the debt) and yet the debt later is shown to still be owed:
Matt. 18: 32 “Then the master called the servant in. ‘You wicked servant,’ he said, ‘I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. 33 Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?’ 34 In anger his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.
35 “This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother or sister from your heart.”
Are you saying God can take His forgiveness back?
Is God saying one thing, then saying the opposite thing making the first a lie?
Is Biblical forgiving conditional?
You are the one saying: "Our debt to God's justice is cancelled (forgiven) by faith in the person and atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ", making the forgiving conditional on our faith in Christ, but the parable does not say that at all, the Master forgave the first servant without any mention of a condition and I say unconditionally, but you are saying by faith, so what "faith" is talked about in the parable?
I am saying our differences is found with the definition of Biblical unconditional forgiveness, but you seem to be saying unconditional forgiving does not exist?
 
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bling

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I would like to know: When did it become acceptable hermeneutics to take details of the parables to learn doctrinal fact? The parable is a story, given to make a point.
Look at least at the parables Jesus explained to us and you find much more then a story with a moral at the end, everything is significant and the very best words that could be used to not miss lead us.
 
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bling

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Our example is God and Jesus, neither forgive without repentance.
Christ forgave sinners while here on earth without us first seeing repentance.
Repentance is a righteous, noble, honorable, worthy and holy activity which the unbelieving sinner cannot do before obtaining Godly type Love. 1 Cor. 13:1-4 tell us if we do not have this Godly type love we can do nothing of value. The only way to obtain the Godly type Love by "he that is forgiven much will Love much" Luke 7. First you have to generate a huge "debt" cause by sinning, then God offers forgiveness (out of His Love) and you just have to accept the Love, but that does not require you to repent of your ways (you do not have the Love yet to really change) you accept God's forgiveness (surrender to God while he is your enemy just willing to accept His charity for selfish reasons (you want to live a undeserved life). God is not limiting His forgiving or making in contingent, but by the definition of forgiveness, the forgiven person must humbly accept this charity as charity to complete the transaction of forgiveness.
 
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Mark Quayle

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Look at least at the parables Jesus explained to us and you find much more then a story with a moral at the end, everything is significant and the very best words that could be used to not miss lead us.
Been there. Done that. When he says they are parallels, they are. Otherwise, we are taking them farther than they are necessarily meant. You can draw inferences if you wish, but don't make doctrine from the inferences.
 
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bling

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Been there. Done that. When he says they are parallels, they are. Otherwise, we are taking them farther than they are necessarily meant. You can draw inferences if you wish, but don't make doctrine from the inferences.
This parable is very specific: 34 In anger his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.
35 “This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother or sister from your heart.”
Did God forgive all those who were involved in Christ's crucifixion, since Christ asked Him to and if not why not?
When did the 3000 on Pentecost, Acts 2, receive forgiveness?
 
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Eloy Craft

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Matt. 18: 21 Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother or sister who sins against me? Up to seven times?” 22 Jesus answered, “I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.”
Ever increasing forgiveness for ever increasing sin:amen:


Gen 5:23


“Adah and Zillah, hear my voice,
you wives of Lamech, and listen to my speech.
For I have killed a man for wounding me,
a young man who hurt me.
24 If Cain will be avenged sevenfold,

then truly Lamech seventy-sevenfold.”

 
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Halbhh

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Been there. Done that. When he says they are parallels, they are. Otherwise, we are taking them farther than they are necessarily meant. You can draw inferences if you wish, but don't make doctrine from the inferences.
In this case, we read at the end a message:

35 “My heavenly Father will also do the same to you (viz: 34“And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.) -- if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”

Which repeats a key thing Christ said to us in non-parable form also:

Matthew 6:14 For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.
Matthew 6:15 But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive yours.

As you can see, this instance of that same message given here in Matthew 6 isn't a parable but a direct teaching, from Christ to us, for all to hear. What is in parables are illustrations that help us to get certain understandings we need, and...those understandings turn out to be about things that matter greatly.
 
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Mark Quayle

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This parable is very specific: 34 In anger his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.
35 “This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother or sister from your heart.”
Did God forgive all those who were involved in Christ's crucifixion, since Christ asked Him to and if not why not?
When did the 3000 on Pentecost, Acts 2, receive forgiveness?
Concerning “This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother or sister from your heart.”: What one infers is not necessarily the implication meant. Of course it is specific. So are all the parables. In this one, we learn that God will extract exact payment from the sinner who does not forgive others their trespasses against him.
 
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Mark Quayle

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In this case, we read at the end a message:

35 “My heavenly Father will also do the same to you (viz: 34“And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.) -- if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”

Which repeats a key thing Christ said to us in non-parable form also:

Matthew 6:14 For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.
Matthew 6:15 But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive yours.

As you can see, this instance of that same message given here in Matthew 6 isn't a parable but a direct teaching, from Christ to us, for all to hear. What is in parables are illustrations that help us to get certain understandings we need, and...those understandings turn out to be about things that matter greatly.
Well, you, at least, see what the parable was for, though I don't know that you don't draw implications from what it does teach, implications such as the notion that our forgiveness of others is the cause by which God forgives us: It doesn't say that.
 
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Clare73

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Clare,
You are not addressing Jesus' explanation of the Parable in which the Master (God) forgives (as you say cancelled the debt) and yet the debt later is shown to still be owed:
Matt. 18: 32 “Then the master called the servant in. ‘You wicked servant,’ he said, ‘I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. 33 Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?’ 34 In anger his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.
35 “This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother or sister from your heart.”
Are you saying God can take His forgiveness back?
"Forgive us our debts as we forgive the debts of others to us."
Is God saying one thing, then saying the opposite thing making the first a lie?
Is Biblical forgiving conditional?
You are the one saying: "Our debt to God's justice is cancelled (forgiven) by faith in the person and atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ", making the forgiving conditional on our faith in Christ, but the parable does not say that at all, the Master forgave the first servant without any mention of a condition and I say unconditionally, but you are saying by faith, so what "faith" is talked about in the parable?
I am saying our differences is found with the definition of Biblical unconditional forgiveness, but you seem to be saying unconditional forgiving does not exist?
I was referring to the debt owed to the master, not the debt owed to the servant by another servant.
 
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