Safe place to explore an orthodox theology of Sabbath?

[Carl Emerson]

I have just has an exhaustive debate on the Sabbath that has crystallised my own thoughts somewhat to the extent that I would like to offer a theology of Sabbath for consideration.

Those who have read it so far think it is pretty orthodox.

I am hoping we can do it here to avoid the frustrating issue of SDA members using it as a platform to push E G White 'theology'

Is this acceptable and a safe place to explore the subject together?

 

[Paidiske]

As long as you're wanting to explore within an Anglican framework, sure.

 

[seeking.IAM]

This is not a debate forum. It is a faith group forum. This seems unlikely to end well.

 

[FreeinChrist]

ADViSOR HAT

This thread is closed for review. PLEASE note what forum this is. It is a congregational forum and ONLY those who are members of this congregational group can teach/debate.​

 

[FreeinChrist]

ADVISOR HAT


This thread is being reopened. A clean up was done. As this thread is in a congregational forum, debating against Anglican beliefs is not allowed. ​

 

[GDL]

There you go, Carl. Cleaned up. Hope you find the agreement you're looking for.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Thanks so much...

I will present my humble offering soon.

 

[Carl Emerson]

OK here we go...

First off, I am exploring the subject of Sabbath and would appreciate response to what I have come to so far.

I am aware that among us are folks well informed in the several areas of study that touch the subject.

My position is not rigid but certain theological non-negotiables come into play.

From my knowledge of scripture I conclude the following.
=======================================
The 'days' in Genesis 1 are 'God' days as He said a day to Him was as 1000 years... The term 1000 years simply indicates a long time.

After the six days of creation God entered His Seventh Day. This was not an 'earth day' of 24 hours - in fact it continues today otherwise the promise of entering His Sabbath Rest in Heb 3 and 4 does not hold.

The Sabbath for man was not established until Exodus at which point it was anchored in chronological time. I don't believe Adam and Eve kept the Sabbath.

When the temple veil was rent from the top, the authority that came with the curses of the Law was broken including the consequences of not keeping the Sabbath.

Paul clearly underlines God's plan for our Sabbath Rest post cross in Heb 3 and 4.

It is the same invitation that was given in ages past - to enter the Rest of His Sabbath (not the Sabbath made for man that was established in Exodus.) and this was a rest experienced every day because His Sabbath has not ended. That is why the text continually says "Today if you hear my voice... "

So entering His rest daily also satisfies the Law of the Spirit for believers which and has replaced the authority the Law of Moses.

The demands of the Law of the Spirit are greater than the Mosaic Law as we are accountable to His voice within and the fear of Him as prophesied by Jeremiah.

The conclusion then is that the day we gather for worship is not a matter to be concerned about. Believers who understand and appropriate by faith His Sabbath Rest have more than satisfied the intent of the Heart of God in making the Sabbath for man, as they do this every day of the week.

However it is fitting to have a weekly memorial around His Resurrection as the fact of this event is the central hub of the faith. This makes Sunday the obvious choice.
=======================================

I have not underpinned these points with specific scripture at this stage but if there are questions around the matters I have raised we can discuss the Biblical support or otherwise.

Thank you for your time and patience.

 

[Leaf473]

OK here we go...

First off, I am exploring the subject of Sabbath and would appreciate response to what I have come to so far.

I am aware that among us are folks well informed in the several areas of study that touch the subject.

My position is not rigid but certain theological non-negotiables come into play.

From my knowledge of scripture I conclude the following.
=======================================
The 'days' in Genesis 1 are 'God' days as He said a day to Him was as 1000 years... The term 1000 years simply indicates a long time.

After the six days of creation God entered His Seventh Day. This was not an 'earth day' of 24 hours - in fact it continues today otherwise the promise of entering His Sabbath Rest in Heb 3 and 4 does not hold.

The Sabbath for man was not established until Exodus at which point it was anchored in chronological time. I don't believe Adam and Eve kept the Sabbath.

When the temple veil was rent from the top, the authority that came with the curses of the Law was broken including the consequences of not keeping the Sabbath.

Paul clearly underlines God's plan for our Sabbath Rest post cross in Heb 3 and 4.

It is the same invitation that was given in ages past - to enter the Rest of His Sabbath (not the Sabbath made for man that was established in Exodus.) and this was a rest experienced every day because His Sabbath has not ended. That is why the text continually says "Today if you hear my voice... "

So entering His rest daily also satisfies the Law of the Spirit for believers which and has replaced the authority the Law of Moses.

The demands of the Law of the Spirit are greater than the Mosaic Law as we are accountable to His voice within and the fear of Him as prophesied by Jeremiah.

The conclusion then is that the day we gather for worship is not a matter to be concerned about. Believers who understand and appropriate by faith His Sabbath Rest have more than satisfied the intent of the Heart of God in making the Sabbath for man, every day for the week.

However it is fitting to have a weekly memorial around His Resurrection as the fact of this event is the central hub of the faith. This makes Sunday the obvious choice.
=======================================

I have not underpinned these points with specific scripture at this stage but if there are questions around the matters I have raised we can discuss the Biblical support or otherwise.

Thank you for your time and patience.

Hi Carl,

I responded in a PM so as not to unwittingly break any rules.

 

[Paidiske]

The conclusion then is that the day we gather for worship is not a matter to be concerned about. Believers who understand and appropriate by faith His Sabbath Rest have more than satisfied the intent of the Heart of God in making the Sabbath for man, every day for the week.

However it is fitting to have a weekly memorial around His Resurrection as the fact of this event is the central hub of the faith. This makes Sunday the obvious choice.

As far as specifically Anglican takes on it, I would point out that one of our key positions is this:

"It is not necessary that Traditions and Ceremonies be in all places one, or utterly like; for at all times they have been divers, and may be changed according to the diversity of countries, times, and men's manners, so that nothing be ordained against God's Word."

So provided we don't feel there is a specific Scriptural reason for worshipping on a given day, this is something on which Anglicans would say customs can vary.

I would note also that traditionally, Anglican forms of worship assumed that people might gather and pray together on any day, or indeed every day. The "office" - morning and evening prayer - was traditionally observed publicly each day in each parish, and in places like cathedrals and monastic communities, still is. More catholic places might also celebrate the Eucharist every day. Even more middle-of-the-road parishes would tend to hold a mid-week Eucharist on a Wednesday.

I would note also that I'm aware that in some places - for example, in Islamic countries - the main worship service of the week is held on Friday, because that is when people have the freedom from work to gather en masse.

So much for gathering for worship. As for a "weekly memorial," if by that you mean communion, surely you know that there too, Anglican customs have varied. The idea that Anglicans would celebrate the Eucharist every week is fairly modern; historically it was often celebrated monthly or even quarterly.

So my overall response would be, it would be hard to critique your position from specifically Anglican sources, and the actual historic and contemporary practice of Anglicans around the world would tend to demonstrate a degree of agreement, although I would be hard pressed to find any official Anglican source which lays out the line of reasoning you've put forward.

 

[pasifika]

OK here we go...

First off, I am exploring the subject of Sabbath and would appreciate response to what I have come to so far.

I am aware that among us are folks well informed in the several areas of study that touch the subject.

My position is not rigid but certain theological non-negotiables come into play.

From my knowledge of scripture I conclude the following.
=======================================
The 'days' in Genesis 1 are 'God' days as He said a day to Him was as 1000 years... The term 1000 years simply indicates a long time.

After the six days of creation God entered His Seventh Day. This was not an 'earth day' of 24 hours - in fact it continues today otherwise the promise of entering His Sabbath Rest in Heb 3 and 4 does not hold.

The Sabbath for man was not established until Exodus at which point it was anchored in chronological time. I don't believe Adam and Eve kept the Sabbath.

When the temple veil was rent from the top, the authority that came with the curses of the Law was broken including the consequences of not keeping the Sabbath.

Paul clearly underlines God's plan for our Sabbath Rest post cross in Heb 3 and 4.

It is the same invitation that was given in ages past - to enter the Rest of His Sabbath (not the Sabbath made for man that was established in Exodus.) and this was a rest experienced every day because His Sabbath has not ended. That is why the text continually says "Today if you hear my voice... "

So entering His rest daily also satisfies the Law of the Spirit for believers which and has replaced the authority the Law of Moses.

The demands of the Law of the Spirit are greater than the Mosaic Law as we are accountable to His voice within and the fear of Him as prophesied by Jeremiah.

The conclusion then is that the day we gather for worship is not a matter to be concerned about. Believers who understand and appropriate by faith His Sabbath Rest have more than satisfied the intent of the Heart of God in making the Sabbath for man, every day for the week.

However it is fitting to have a weekly memorial around His Resurrection as the fact of this event is the central hub of the faith. This makes Sunday the obvious choice.
=======================================

I have not underpinned these points with specific scripture at this stage but if there are questions around the matters I have raised we can discuss the Biblical support or otherwise.

Thank you for your time and patience.

Hello Carl, thank you for sharing your understanding, regarding Sabbath Rest.

 

[seeking.IAM]

As I read Carl's post and Padiske's response, I also think about our three-legged stool, particularly the importance of tradition. The weekly practice of Sabbath is a long-held tradition that pre-dates Christianity. Therefore, broader views of what Sabbath rest means trouble me a bit. I hold a bias that the truth is always found closest to the event. So, I am troubled when a later revelation comes along which essentially means, "You have been doing it wrong all these years."

The importance of tradition has a lot to do with why I'm an Anglican.

 

[Paidiske]

@seeking.IAM, it'd be pretty hard to argue that Anglicans today tend to observe a "traditional" Sabbath, in terms of refraining from work, though, wouldn't it?

 

[seeking.IAM]

@seeking.IAM, it'd be pretty hard to argue that Anglicans today tend to observe a "traditional" Sabbath, in terms of refraining from work, though, wouldn't it?

I would not want to argue that there is an Anglican tenet on not working. But, I suspect there could be a lot of variation amongst those of us sitting in the pew, if only from the converts among us like myself who are refugees from other traditions.

You bring up another interesting point for me, though. It seems like every CF thread started with the word "Sabbath" in it gets tunnel-vision focus on, "which day?" with little regard as to what else keeping the Sabbath means. I tend to think we have our emphasis on the wrong syllable.

~ An Anglican view from the pew.

 

[Leaf473]

As far as specifically Anglican takes on it, I would point out that one of our key positions is this:

"It is not necessary that Traditions and Ceremonies be in all places one, or utterly like; for at all times they have been divers, and may be changed according to the diversity of countries, times, and men's manners, so that nothing be ordained against God's Word."

So provided we don't feel there is a specific Scriptural reason for worshipping on a given day, this is something on which Anglicans would say customs can vary.

I would note also that traditionally, Anglican forms of worship assumed that people might gather and pray together on any day, or indeed every day. The "office" - morning and evening prayer - was traditionally observed publicly each day in each parish, and in places like cathedrals and monastic communities, still is. More catholic places might also celebrate the Eucharist every day. Even more middle-of-the-road parishes would tend to hold a mid-week Eucharist on a Wednesday.

I would note also that I'm aware that in some places - for example, in Islamic countries - the main worship service of the week is held on Friday, because that is when people have the freedom from work to gather en masse.

So much for gathering for worship. As for a "weekly memorial," if by that you mean communion, surely you know that there too, Anglican customs have varied. The idea that Anglicans would celebrate the Eucharist every week is fairly modern; historically it was often celebrated monthly or even quarterly.

So my overall response would be, it would be hard to critique your position from specifically Anglican sources, and the actual historic and contemporary practice of Anglicans around the world would tend to demonstrate a degree of agreement, although I would be hard pressed to find any official Anglican source which lays out the line of reasoning you've put forward.

Thank you, very informative!

 

[Carl Emerson]

As I read Carl's post and Padiske's response, I also think about our three-legged stool, particularly the importance of tradition. The weekly practice of Sabbath is a long-held tradition that pre-dates Christianity. Therefore, broader views of what Sabbath rest means trouble me a bit. I hold a bias that the truth is always found closest to the event. So, I am troubled when a later revelation comes along which essentially means, "You have been doing it wrong all these years."

The importance of tradition has a lot to do with why I'm an Anglican.

I don't think any part of what I presented is a critique of what has histroically been done.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Some members have messaged me privately on this topic for fear of breaching the rules of the forum.
Are non-anglican members allowed to contribute?

 

[Paidiske]

Are non-anglican members allowed to contribute?

Only really by asking questions on the topic, not by putting forward their own points of view for discussion or debate.

 

[Carl Emerson]

OK so far so good.

Can members comment on whether they feel what I have presented aligns with orthodox theology please.

 

[Paidiske]

That doesn't really fit with the Statement of Purpose of this forum.