What is "The Great tribulation"?

[jgr]

But there has to be a final one otherwise they will continue indefinitely.

I agree. However, Scripture does not identify it.

 

[jgr]

Copy @jgr

My concern about the doctrine of those who place what is written about great tribulation in first-century history, or in history at any other point in time since then, is that because the Old Covenant harlot and the New Covenant harlot are of the same spirit, the warnings and judgment that applied to the Old Covenant harlot apply likewise to the New Covenant harlot.

There has always been a harlot group among those who call themselves by the name of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and what has happened before will happen again, and should be a warning for us.

But the doctrine that places great tribulation all in history gives Christians a false sense of security and an unwarranted complacency.

The message of Israel's true prophets was always rejected and hated by those who chose to block their ears to the truth,

and it's quite high-minded to point fingers at the harlot part of God's covenant people of the past, without even considering whether or not the covenant people's behavior in our own day might likewise come under God's judgment of some, and purging of others in the process, that they may become clothed in white garments through the fiery trial, thus separating the wheat from the tares.

The choice:

1. Verifiable history which confirms Scripture
2. Unverifiable futurity which can confirm nothing

I'll take #1. Every time.

 

[Timtofly]

Quote the verse which identifies it as final.

"And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished (final), as he hath declared to his servants the prophets."

The 7th Trumpet is the end of all prophetic Scripture. Except Revelation 20-22. The 1000 year reign is after the 7th Trumpet.

 

[jgr]

"And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished (final), as he hath declared to his servants the prophets."

The 7th Trumpet is the end of all prophetic Scripture. Except Revelation 20-22. The 1000 year reign is after the 7th Trumpet.

What verse is that?

 

[Timtofly]

AD 70 was not the world's final tribulation.

70AD was not the end. The 7th Trumpet is the end.

You asked for 1 verse. You got two verses. You would have claimed Matthew 24 is not about the 7th Trumpet, but it is the end.

 

[Timtofly]

Tell any historically knowledgeable Jew that AD 70 was not "a tribulation at all".

Not the final one. More tribulation happened after 70AD. I already asked how many final tribulations, and the response was indicative of never ending ever because the word final is not explicit. The end is the end, period.

"And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come."

This is the end after all that is mentioned in the prior verses. The next verse is not after the end. The next verse is the next/last point brought up right before the end.

 

[Timtofly]

Matthew 24:21 describes the tribulation of 70 AD. It was not against Christians, all of whom escaped it.

Matthew 24:21 is describing what John witnessed in Revelation 8-10. It will not be against the church either. They will have been glorified before that point. Some call the glorification process an escape.

 

[3 Resurrections]

But your doctrine gives Christians a false sense of security and an unwarranted complacency.

The message of Israel's true prophets was always rejected and the true prophets hated by those who chose to stop their ears to the truth, and it's quite high-minded to point fingers at a past harlot without considering whether or not the covenant people's behavior in our own day might likewise come under God's judgment of some, and purging of others in the process that they may become clothed in white garments through the fiery trial, thus separating the wheat from the tares.

A "false sense of security and an unwarranted complacency"? Hardly. We have scripture's promise that "Yeah, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution." (2 Timothy 3:12). It has always been the case, and always will be the case that those "born after the flesh" will persecute "those born after the Spirit" (Galatians 4:29). These are innately opposed to one another, with persecution of the saints as the inevitable result. It's just that this ongoing type of persecution for believers is not what was called "the Great Tribulation of those days", which was a period that came and went long ago.

The prediction in Matthew 24:21 was that there would continue to be episodes of tribulation for the believers throughout time, but none that would exactly duplicate that particular type of tribulation taking place in the period called "the Great Tribulation".

Because God made good on carrying out the "Days of Vengeance" on that "wicked and perverse generation" of Jews who caused His sufferings and death by having the entire Satanic realm descend on them in their "last state", this need not cause us to be "high-minded". Quite the opposite. It should cause us to feel a deeper appreciation that God has extended grace to us.

Because God used that particular "wicked and perverse generation" to bring about the end of the Satanic realm in this world, I am deeply grateful that this is an enemy whose presence in this world I no longer have to contend with. As you have touched on in your comment above, the presently-remaining threat to believers is the deception lurking in our own hearts, and the opposition to the Spirit that those "born after the flesh" would like to impose on those who are "born after the Spirit". This should be enough to keep us humble, and busy for a lifetime.

 

[Timtofly]

Verifiable historical fulfillments of Matthew 24.

DECEIVERS

Matthew: "And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you, For many shall come in my name saying, I am Christ, and shall deceive many" (24:4,5).

Mark: "And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you; For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ, and shall deceive many" (13:5,6).

Luke: "And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived; for many shall come in my name saying, I am Christ, and the time draweth near; go ye not therefore after them" (21:8).

Did such deceivers or false Christs arise and deceive many in those years before the destruction of Jerusalem? Yes.

According to Josephus, the noted Jewish historian, twelve years after our Saviour's death, a certain impostor named Theudas persuaded a great multitude to follow him to the river Jordan which he claimed would divide for their passage. At the time of Felix (who is mentioned in the book of Acts), the country of the Jews was filled with impostors who Felix had put to death EVERY DAY—a statement which indicates that there were "many" of such in those days.

An Egyptian who "pretended to be a prophet" gathered 30,000 men, claiming that he would show "how, at his command, the walls of Jerusalem would fall down."

Another deceiver was Simon, a sorcerer, who led people to believe he was the great power of God (See Acts 8). According to Irenaeus, Simon claimed to be the Son of God and creator of angels. Jerome says that he claimed to be the Word of God, the Almighty. Justin relates that he went to Rome and was acclaimed as a god by his magical powers.

Origen mentions a certain wonder-worker, Dositheus, who claimed he was the Christ foretold by Moses. Another deceiver in those days was Barchochebas who, according to Jerome, claimed to vomit flames. Bar-jesus is mentioned in Acts 13:6 as a sorcerer and false prophet. These are examples of the deceivers of whom history says there were "a great number," and of whom Jesus had prophesied that there would be "many."

WARS AND RUMORS OF WARS

Matthew: "And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars. See that ye be not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation shall rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom" (24:6,7).

Mark: "And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled; for such things must needs be, but the end is not yet, For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom" (13:7, 8).

Luke: "But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified; for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by [immediately]. Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom (21:9,10).

We are told that when Jesus gave this prophecy, the Roman Empire was experiencing a general peace within its borders. Jesus explained to his disciples that they would be hearing of wars, rumors of wars, and commotions. And did they? Yes. Within a short time the Empire was filled with strife, insurrection, and wars.

Before the fall of Jerusalem, four Emperors came to violent deaths within the space of 18 months. According to the historian Suetonius (who lived during the latter part of the first century and the beginning of the second), Nero "drove a dagger into his throat.'' Galba was run down by horsemen. A soldier cut off his head and "thrusting his thumb into the mouth," carried the horrid trophy about. Otho "stabbed himself" in the breast. Vitellius was killed by slow torture and then "dragged by a hook into the Tiber." We can understand that such fate falling on the Emperors would naturally spread distress and insecurity through the Empire.

In the Annals of Tacitus, a Roman who wrote a history which covers the period prior to 70 A. D., we find such expressions as these: "Disturbances in Germany," "commotions in Africa," "commotions in Thrace," "insurrections in Gaul," "intrigues among the Parthians," "the war in Britain," "war in Armenia."

Among the Jews, the times became turbulent. In Seleucia, 50,000 Jews were killed. There was an uprising against them in Alexandria. In a battle between the Jews and Syrians in Caesarea, 20,000 were killed. During these times, Caligula ordered his statue placed in the temple at Jerusalem. The Jews refused to do this and lived in constant fear that the Emperor's armies would be sent into Palestine. This fear became so real that some of them did not even bother to till their fields.

But though there would be wars, rumours of wars, and commotions, Jesus told his disciples: "See that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the END is not yet." The word "end" that is used here is not the same Greek word as in the expression "end of the world." As Barnes says, the end here referred to is "the end of the Jewish economy; the destruction of Jerusalem."

Wars, rumors of wars, and commotions were of a general nature. These things were not signs of the end; to the contrary, they were given to show that the end was NOT yet. None of these things would be the sign which would cause the disciples to flee into the mountains.

FAMINES, PESTILENCES, EARTHQUAKES

Matthew. "And there shall be famines and pestilences, and earthquakes in divers places, all these are the beginning of sorrows (24:7,8).

Mark: "And there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles. These are the beginning of sorrows" (13:8).

Luke: "And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines and pestilences, and fearful sights" (21:11).

The Bible records that there was famine "throughout all the world...in the days of Claudius Caesar (Acts 11:28). Judea was especially hard hit by famine. "The disciples, every man according to his ability, determined to send relief unto the brethren which dwelt in Judaea" (verse 29). Paul's instructions concerning this "collection [of fruit] for the saints" is recorded in First Corinthians 16:1-5; Rom. 15:25-28.

Historians such as Suetonius and others mention famine during those years. Tacitus speaks of a "failure in the crops, and a famine consequent thereupon." Eusebius also mentions famines during this time in Rome, Judea, and Greece. Yes, there were famines in those years before the fall of Jerusalem.

Along with famines, Jesus mentioned pestilence; that is, plagues, the spread of disease, epidemics. Famine and pestilence, of course, go hand in hand. When people do not have proper food or insufficient food, pestilence results. Suetonius wrote of "pestilence" at Rome in the days of Nero which was so severe that "within the space of one autumn there died no less than 30,000 persons." Josephus records that pestilences raged in Babylonia in A. D. 40. Tacitus tells of pestilences in Italy in A. D. 65. Yes, there were pestilences in those years before the destruction of Jerusalem.

During this period, Jesus said there would also be earthquakes in many places. Tacitus mentions earthquakes at Rome. He wrote that "Frequent earthquakes occurred, by which many houses were thrown down" and that "twelve populous cities of Asia fell in ruins from an earthquake."

Seneca, writing in the year 58 A. D., said: "How often have cities of Asia and Achaea fallen with one fatal shock! how many cities have been swallowed up in Syria! how many in Macedonia! how often has Cyprus been wasted by this calamity ! how often has Paphos become a ruin! News has often been brought us of the demolition of whole cities at once." He mentions the earthquake at Campania during the reign of Nero. In 60 A.D., Hierapous, Colosse, and Laodicea were overthrown—Laodicea being so self-sufficient that it recovered without the Imperial aid furnished other cities. In 63 A.D,, the city of Pompeii was greatly damaged by earthquake. There were earthquakes in Crete, Apamea, Smyrna, Miletus, Chios, Samos, and Judea. Earthquakes in divers places.

Source: "Great Prophecies of the Bible" by Ralph Woodrow

This has been nonstop for the last 1991 years. Do you all not understand what "The End" means? No more sin. No more transgression. All prophecy complete. The Gospel will still be a compelling call for the church to carry out. When has the church 100% been told to stop spreading the gospel message? Probably only 5% do so, but it has not stopped 100%.

The gospel message of the church will stop when the church is glorified, and all will know when that happens. Jesus Christ the Prince will be on the earth at that point. Then the end and final tribulation start. The gospel will be spread by an angel at that point, instead of the church, but the gospel will still go out, after the church is glorified.

"And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,"

 

[Timtofly]

The choice:

1. Verifiable history which confirms Scripture
2. Unverifiable futurity which can confirm nothing

I'll take #1. Every time.

When did history stop? 700AD was the last of history? What about 2030? Will that be history?

No such thing as "unverifiable futurity". It is called prophecy. Why not just use the Scriptural term. It is called Faith and Trust in God. Noah built an ark based on your "unverifiable futurity". Actually Noah built it because of faith and trust in God.

I think I will go with faith and trust in God over your "verifiable history".

 

[Timtofly]

What verse is that?

The verse that declares that "final tribulation" over after the 6 Trumpets and 7 Thunders.

The harvest at the end of the world when the angels come with Christ as Prince at the Second Coming. Per Matthew 13.

Revelation is John's version of the Olivet Discourse plus a whole lot more, since he was there in person as an eyewitness witness.

I have yet to hear a Historicist claim John was an historian and Revelation was an historical record.

 

[jgr]

The verse that declares that "final tribulation" over after the 6 Trumpets and 7 Thunders.

The harvest at the end of the world when the angels come with Christ as Prince at the Second Coming. Per Matthew 13.

Revelation is John's version of the Olivet Discourse plus a whole lot more, since he was there in person as an eyewitness witness.

I have yet to hear a Historicist claim John was an historian and Revelation was an historical record.

Why, unlike virtually every other poster, do you refuse to provide full reference attribution?

Are you distorting something again?

 

[Timtofly]

A "false sense of security and an unwarranted complacency"? Hardly. We have scripture's promise that "Yeah, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution." (2 Timothy 3:12). It has always been the case, and always will be the case that those "born after the flesh" will persecute "those born after the Spirit" (Galatians 4:29). These are innately opposed to one another, with persecution of the saints as the inevitable result. It's just that this ongoing type of persecution for believers is not what was called "the Great Tribulation of those days", which was a period that came and went long ago.

The prediction in Matthew 24:21 was that there would continue to be episodes of tribulation for the believers throughout time, but none that would exactly duplicate that particular type of tribulation taking place in the period called "the Great Tribulation".

Because God made good on carrying out the "Days of Vengeance" on that "wicked and perverse generation" of Jews who caused His sufferings and death by having the entire Satanic realm descend on them in their "last state", this need not cause us to be "high-minded". Quite the opposite. It should cause us to feel a deeper appreciation that God has extended grace to us.

Because God used that particular "wicked and perverse generation" to bring about the end of the Satanic realm in this world, I am deeply grateful that this is an enemy whose presence in this world I no longer have to contend with. As you have touched on in your comment above, the presently-remaining threat to believers is the deception lurking in our own hearts, and the opposition to the Spirit that those "born after the flesh" would like to impose on those who are "born after the Spirit". This should be enough to keep us humble, and busy for a lifetime.

Do you not think that 8 billion people dying in a matter of a few years is not a time of great tribulation and distress? The whole world is about to expire, and many think that it will never happen in a million years, because "soon" meant 66.6AD. Those 42 months cannot compare to the coming 42 months, where Satan and his angels along with the FP and beast are in control. And their authority is nothing compared to God's direct authority and judgment.

 

[Timtofly]

Why, unlike virtually every other poster, do you refuse to provide full reference attribution?

Are you distorting something again?

You asked for a verse, and I combined two verses into one.

 

[jgr]

The verse that declares that "final tribulation" over after the 6 Trumpets and 7 Thunders.

There is no such verse.

 

[jgr]

You asked for a verse, and I combined two verses into one.

Do you know what full reference attribution is?

 

[claninja]

Thanks for that. It's a relief to know that you believe that the Lord's return and the resurrection of the dead is still future (I don't know why, but it's always a relief to me). The idea that the Lord has already returned is very "strange and foreign to my culture" (figuratively speaking).

When it comes to the Olivet Discourse I'm in the "Not sure", i.e "Could have all been fulfilled in A,D 70, but if so, then these verses don't really make sense" camp, which overlaps with the other camp I'm in: "Could both have been fulfilled, but is also going to be fulfilled."

i would say my position, in regards to Matthew 24:34, aligns most closely with John Gill.

The olivet discourse was not about the future physical end of the world, nor the future final coming of Christ. It was completely fulfilled in the destruction of Jerusalem when Christ “came in judgement” upon that nation. Thus, Jesus’ prophecy rang true and that 1st century generation experienced those events. But again, this does not preclude the future final coming of Christ.

Gills exposition:
“but some should live till all these things were fulfilled; see Matthew 16:28 as many did, and as there is reason to believe they might, and must, since all these things had their accomplishment, in and about forty years after this: and certain it is, that John, one of the disciples of Christ, outlived the time by many years; and, as Dr. Lightfoot observes, many of the Jewish doctors now living, when Christ spoke these words, lived until the city was destroyed; as Rabban Simeon, who perished with it, R. Jochanan ben Zaccai, who outlived it, R. Zadoch, R. Ishmael, and others: this is a full and clear proof, that not anything that is said before, relates to the second coming of Christ, the day of judgment, and end of the world; but that all belong to the coming of the son of man, in the destruction of Jerusalem, and to the end of the Jewish state.”
(Matthew 24:34 Commentaries: "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.)

 

[Zao is life]

I agree. However, Scripture does not identify it.

You're right. Not explicitly. My own human intellect allows me to regard it as a legitimate inference to make though, when comparing Matthew 24:29-31 with other passages and statements in the New Testament. But I'm a futurist who believes that Christ's return is still coming.

 

[Zao is life]

It is entirely about 70 AD, as history confirms.

The expression "nor ever shall be" used by Christ signifies the continuation of time and history and tribulation after 70 AD.

There is no NT Scripture which identifies any NT reference to tribulation as being the final tribulation.

That is dispensational delusion.

I think he proved to you that the tribulation of Christians and persecution of Christians is mentioned over and over again in scripture. We can make the inferences that we will, but the tribulation of Christians and a time of great tribulation for Christians is certainly on the table for all Christians, especially those who are alive immediately preceding the Lord's return.

Luke 21:20-24 makes no sense if interpreted in terms of persecution and tribulation of Christians, but Matthew 24:9-31 certainly makes total sense as a reference to the tribulation of saints when considering the fact that the entire passage is joined into one long discourse by the use of the words "and", "therefore", "but", and "for". The introduction to the tribulation the Lord is speaking about is in Matthew 24:9.

That does not mean that the tribulation experienced by the Jews in A.D 70 was not a time of great tribulation for the Jews (it most certainly was, and probably the greatest period of tribulation that had ever been since the world was until that time),

but you're making inferences that you can only make if you ignore all the passages and parts of scripture that @ewq1938 quoted in his reply to your post (and many others besides).

 

[jgr]

I think he proved to you that the tribulation of Christians and persecution of Christians is mentioned over and over again in scripture. We can make the inferences that we will, but the tribulation of Christians and a time of great tribulation for Christians is certainly on the table for all Christians, especially those who are alive immediately preceding the Lord's return.

Luke 21:20-24 makes no sense if interpreted in terms of persecution and tribulation of Christians, but Matthew 24:9-31 certainly makes total sense as a reference to the tribulation of saints when considering the fact that the entire passage is joined into one long discourse by the use of the words "and", "therefore", "but", and "for". The introduction to the tribulation the Lord is speaking about is in Matthew 24:9.

That does not mean that the tribulation experienced by the Jews in A.D 70 was not a time of great tribulation for the Jews (it most certainly was, and probably the greatest period of tribulation that had ever been since the world was until that time),

but you're making inferences that you can only make if you ignore all the passages and parts of scripture that @ewq1938 quoted in his reply to your post (and many others besides).

To establish your case, you would need to provide credible disproofs of the plethora of historical and Scriptural evidence amassed by Bro. Woodrow that I've cited (and there is much more).

You would need to discard the entire historical testimony of Josephus and other cited Roman historians, who overwhelmingly corroborate the content of Matthew 24.

You would need to provide citations of any recognized Christian or other scholars and commentators for 17 centuries of post-apostolic history prior to the 19th century who espoused a full modernist dispensationalist futurist view of Matthew 24.

What do you think?