What is "The Great tribulation"?

Jamdoc

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It sounds like with minor differences we're seeing the same things. I see the seals as signifying something written in the scroll, and all seven seals have to be opened before we can "see" the contents of the scroll, so what you said above about the seals is interesting.

I also see the 6th seal, the armies seen in the sixth trumpet, and the armies of the beast seen in the 6th bowl of wrath (6 6 6), as possibly all being a Revelation about the same events.

But the word possibly = I don't assume I know. But the thundering and lightning and earthquake seen in all these: seventh seal, seventh trumpet, seventh bowl of wrath (7 7 7) I believe possibly is meant to take the reader's mind back to the seven priests and seven trumpets (Jericho) when the walls fell at the sounding of the seventh trumpet, the seventh time the people marched around the city on the seventh day.

But I don't sit excitedly trying to work it out, and I know I could be wrong about anything that comes into my mind and it doesn't mean it's fact just because it came into my mind. I just calmly sit and read and study and wait on the Lord to give me as much understanding as He wills to give me, and as little as He wills (because a little knowledge is a dangerous thing for some of us,. i.e me).

I definitely don't see the seals as being the same thing as the trumpets or vials.
the trumpets and vials have a lot of parallels but the seals are distinct.

The trumpets and vials are all supernatural events except for the 6th trumpet (possibly, it may also ve 200 million demons. I've heard both it's a Chinese army, and an army of demons), and 6th vial, which partially are manifested through the actions of men, there's a supernatural act to clear the way, and then a mortal (again possibly in the 6th trumpet's case) response where an army goes forth.
The 6th seal on the other hand, is the first supernatural event within the seals, where the first 5 seals are all actions that men do.

Not to mention to me, the seals are definitely a precursor to the trumpets and vials because the 7th seal is the rolling out of the 7 trumpets. After the 6th seal, the angels that will be blowing the trumpets are held back... until the 7th seal gives them the permission to go forth.
 
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Zao is life

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Not to mention to me, the seals are definitely a precursor to the trumpets and vials because the 7th seal is the rolling out of the 7 trumpets. After the 6th seal, the angels that will be blowing the trumpets are held back... until the 7th seal gives them the permission to go forth.
@Jamdoc Rewrote this part in case it came out as a dismissal of part of what you said (which it isn't). Thanks :oldthumbsup: I don't personally try and work out the details of how it's all going to play out, so I can't comment on that part of what you wrote.

But you misunderstand me regarding the seals: They are not the events (the events are written about in the scroll), but they signify something about the events. As each seal is loosened, so our understanding as to what is written in the scroll (the trumpets and vials) is "loosened" a little more than before - but only once we know what is in the scroll will we see the significance of the visions John saw when each seal was opened.

All seven seals have to be opened in order for the scroll to unroll, hence the trumpets following the opening of the seventh seal - but just as the first 6 seals signify something about the events written on the scroll, so the seventh seal too signifies something about what is written on the scroll - hence the mention of "voices, thunderings, lightnings and an earthquake", which you will also see happening in Exodus 19:16; Exodus 20:18; and in the throne-room of God:

Revelation 4
5 And out of the throne came lightnings and thunderings and voices. And seven lamps of fire were burning in front of the throne, which are the seven spirits of God.

So when this appears in the vision John is seeing in the seventh seal, it's signifying the judgment event which is only written about in the scroll, in the seventh trumpet and seventh bowl of wrath:

Revelation 8
5 And the angel took the censer and filled it with fire from the altar, and cast it into the earth. And voices and thunderings and lightnings and an earthquake occurred.

You'll read the same thing in the seventh trumpet and the seventh bowl of wrath. I think hail is also included in the seventh bowl with the voices, thunderings, lightnings and an earthqake.

So now that the last seal has been loosened, the scroll unrolls:

6 And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.

@Jamdoc We only understand the significance of the seal (what it signifies) after the loosed seals have allowed the scroll to unroll and we can now see what is written in the scroll. The seals are not the events. They signify something about the events.
 
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3 Resurrections

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The "Days of Vengeance" Luke 21 wrote about were the time of God's vengeance upon that wicked generation which rejected Christ's personal visitation of them during His earthly ministry. Christ went about doing nothing but good for His own people, and in general, they "received Him not" (John 1:11). Part of the blessing Christ gave to that generation was to cast out devils, which seemed to be as prevalent as the common cold in that region and time period. Every one of the 70 Christ sent out returned to Him, rejoicing that the devils were subject to them in Christ's name (Luke 10:17). So demonic oppression of that nation seemed to be a frequent problem.

Because of that wicked generation's ultimate rejection of Christ, He promised them in Matthew 12:43-45 that the same devils which he had cast out of the people would later on return to them, along with seven more devils that were more wicked than the first ones that were originally cast out. This would result in that wicked generation's "last state" being worse than its "first state".

In the time period of AD 66-70, Jerusalem became a prison for every unclean spirit (Revelation 18:2), trapped in the city along with the inhabitants of Jerusalem while it was besieged during those years. Those inhabitants of the city experienced the torment of having the entire demonic realm imprisoned with them inside the walls of the city. This was a unique type of tribulation that had never happened in history before, and would never happen again. Truly a "Great Tribulation". God was going to use that location of Jerusalem and its Lake of Fire, prepared for the Devil and his angels, to get rid of the entire Satanic realm once and for all in those days, as prophesied by Zechariah 13:2, Ezekiel 28:18-19, and Isaiah 24:21-23 and 27:1.
 
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Timtofly

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Why do you have to twist every posters say? Do you feel comfortable doing that? Are you not convicted?
What does final mean to you? If there is no final tribulation, then tribulation carries on forever. You all make no sense asking nonsense questions. Do you all feel convicted?
 
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ewq1938

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Quote the verse which identifies it as final.


Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Mar 13:19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.
 
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jgr

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Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Mar 13:19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.

AD 70 was not the world's final tribulation.
 
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ewq1938

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AD 70 was not the world's final tribulation.

It wasn't a tribulation at all, not in the NT sense. The Great Tribulation I cited is one that is in the future and is against the Christian church.
 
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jgr

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It wasn't a tribulation at all, not in the NT sense. The Great Tribulation I cited is one that is in the future and is against the Christian church.

Tell any historically knowledgeable Jew that AD 70 was not "a tribulation at all".
 
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ewq1938

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Tell any historically knowledgeable Jew that AD 70 was not "a tribulation at all".


I said in the NT sense, in which tribulation is against Christians.
 
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ewq1938

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Matthew 24:21 describes the tribulation of 70 AD.

No, it has nothing to do with 70 AD.

It was not against Christians, all of whom escaped it.

The passage is explicitly about Christian persecution:

Who is persecuted in the great Tribulation? Jews or Christians?

The olivet discourse (Matthew):

Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

False Christ's are warned about.

Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

These are Christians being delivered up not Jews. Hated because of Christ's name! This proves that Christ is talking about Christians when he says "you". He was also speaking to his Christian disciples.


Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.


The gospel of the kingdom is about Christ and is delivered by Christians.


Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

"Ye" are Christians.

So, the AoD is going to affect "all the world" and Christians are the targets! Christians are persecuted and murdered for the testimony of Christ and because they carry his name.

Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

"Ye" is still the same people, Christians.


Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

The elect are Christians not Jews per the context of this passage.

Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

Again, a warning about false Christs given to "you" which are Christians.

Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Another reference to false Christ's and the Christian elect.


Mat 24:25 Behold, I have told you before.
Mat 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

You=Christians and yet again another false Christ reference. There is a false Christ coming to deceive Christians and those not deceived will be delivered up, persecuted and killed.

Nothing about Jews at all because Jews are not the target of the Antichrist and tribulation.


Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


And here is the second coming. The gathering of the elect by angels is another way to speak of the rapture and the rapture is only for Christians. Christians are the body of Christ, are the Church of Christ, and are the bride of Christ, targeted by the enemy during the Great Tribulation of Christian persecution.

Again, nothing about Jews in the religion of Judaism at all because they are not the target of the Antichrist and tribulation.


The olivet discourse (Mark):

Mar 13:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately,
Mar 13:4 Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?
Mar 13:5 And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you:

He is talking to his Christian disciples.

Mar 13:6 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

This is the false Christ that Christians are warned about.

Mar 13:7 And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled: for such things must needs be; but the end shall not be yet.
Mar 13:8 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles: these are the beginnings of sorrows.
Mar 13:9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.

"for my sake" means the reason they are delivered to councils and beaten in Jewish synagogues is because they are Christians! This is not about Jewish persecution or punishment at all.

Mar 13:10 And the gospel must first be published among all nations.

That's the Christian gospel of Christ not a Jewish gospel.


Mar 13:11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

"you" here is still the same people he is talking about, Christians.

Mar 13:12 Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death.
Mar 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Here it is again. Those that carry the name of Christ, Christians, will be the ones persecuted.


Mar 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:
Mar 13:15 And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house:
Mar 13:16 And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment.
Mar 13:17 But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Mar 13:18 And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter.
Mar 13:19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.
Mar 13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

The elect here are the same people in the entire OD, Christians!


Mar 13:21 And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:

Again Christians are being warned about the false Christ.


Mar 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

Same Christian elect here as well.


Mar 13:23 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.
Mar 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
Mar 13:25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
Mar 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
Mar 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

And here is the second coming of the Christian Messiah and the rapturing/gathering.


Mar 13:28 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near:
Mar 13:29 So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors.
Mar 13:30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.
Mar 13:31 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
Mar 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
Mar 13:33 Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.
Mar 13:34 For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.
Mar 13:35 Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:
Mar 13:36 Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.
Mar 13:37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.

Never once does the subject change from Christian persecution to anything about the Jews being targeted for persecution or punishment. Christians are the body of Christ, are the Church of Christ, and are the bride of Christ, targeted by the enemy during the Great Tribulation of Christian persecution.
The OD is fully and completely about Christian persecution and AD70 was only about the Jews rebelling against the Roman's and being defeated.


In the GT Christians will be beaten in Jewish synagogues simply because Christians are the ones being persecuted not the Jews.






Let's see what Revelation says about persecution in the great tribulation:


Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.


The ones persecuted are Christians!


Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
Rev 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
Rev 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

The ones persecuted are Christians!


Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Christians are Satan's target!


Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of [/B][/U]the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus[/B][/U].


The saints are Christians not Jews. The saints keep the faith of Jesus! The tribulation is war on Christianity.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

The witness of Jesus means they are Christians. The ones persecuted are Christians!

Christians are the body of Christ, are the Church of Christ, and are the bride of Christ, targeted by the enemy during the Great Tribulation of Christian persecution.
 
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jgr

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No, it has nothing to do with 70 AD.



The passage is explicitly about Christian persecution:

Who is persecuted in the great Tribulation? Jews or Christians?

The olivet discourse (Matthew):

Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

False Christ's are warned about.

Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

These are Christians being delivered up not Jews. Hated because of Christ's name! This proves that Christ is talking about Christians when he says "you". He was also speaking to his Christian disciples.


Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.


The gospel of the kingdom is about Christ and is delivered by Christians.


Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

"Ye" are Christians.

So, the AoD is going to affect "all the world" and Christians are the targets! Christians are persecuted and murdered for the testimony of Christ and because they carry his name.

Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

"Ye" is still the same people, Christians.


Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

The elect are Christians not Jews per the context of this passage.

Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

Again, a warning about false Christs given to "you" which are Christians.

Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Another reference to false Christ's and the Christian elect.


Mat 24:25 Behold, I have told you before.
Mat 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

You=Christians and yet again another false Christ reference. There is a false Christ coming to deceive Christians and those not deceived will be delivered up, persecuted and killed.

Nothing about Jews at all because Jews are not the target of the Antichrist and tribulation.


Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


And here is the second coming. The gathering of the elect by angels is another way to speak of the rapture and the rapture is only for Christians. Christians are the body of Christ, are the Church of Christ, and are the bride of Christ, targeted by the enemy during the Great Tribulation of Christian persecution.

Again, nothing about Jews in the religion of Judaism at all because they are not the target of the Antichrist and tribulation.


The olivet discourse (Mark):

Mar 13:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately,
Mar 13:4 Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?
Mar 13:5 And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you:

He is talking to his Christian disciples.

Mar 13:6 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

This is the false Christ that Christians are warned about.

Mar 13:7 And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled: for such things must needs be; but the end shall not be yet.
Mar 13:8 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles: these are the beginnings of sorrows.
Mar 13:9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.

"for my sake" means the reason they are delivered to councils and beaten in Jewish synagogues is because they are Christians! This is not about Jewish persecution or punishment at all.

Mar 13:10 And the gospel must first be published among all nations.

That's the Christian gospel of Christ not a Jewish gospel.


Mar 13:11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

"you" here is still the same people he is talking about, Christians.

Mar 13:12 Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death.
Mar 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Here it is again. Those that carry the name of Christ, Christians, will be the ones persecuted.


Mar 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:
Mar 13:15 And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house:
Mar 13:16 And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment.
Mar 13:17 But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Mar 13:18 And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter.
Mar 13:19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.
Mar 13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

The elect here are the same people in the entire OD, Christians!


Mar 13:21 And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:

Again Christians are being warned about the false Christ.


Mar 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

Same Christian elect here as well.


Mar 13:23 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.
Mar 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
Mar 13:25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
Mar 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
Mar 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

And here is the second coming of the Christian Messiah and the rapturing/gathering.


Mar 13:28 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near:
Mar 13:29 So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors.
Mar 13:30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.
Mar 13:31 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
Mar 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
Mar 13:33 Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.
Mar 13:34 For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.
Mar 13:35 Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:
Mar 13:36 Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.
Mar 13:37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.

Never once does the subject change from Christian persecution to anything about the Jews being targeted for persecution or punishment. Christians are the body of Christ, are the Church of Christ, and are the bride of Christ, targeted by the enemy during the Great Tribulation of Christian persecution.
The OD is fully and completely about Christian persecution and AD70 was only about the Jews rebelling against the Roman's and being defeated.


In the GT Christians will be beaten in Jewish synagogues simply because Christians are the ones being persecuted not the Jews.






Let's see what Revelation says about persecution in the great tribulation:


Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.


The ones persecuted are Christians!


Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
Rev 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
Rev 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

The ones persecuted are Christians!


Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Christians are Satan's target!


Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of [/B][/U]the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus[/B][/U].


The saints are Christians not Jews. The saints keep the faith of Jesus! The tribulation is war on Christianity.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

The witness of Jesus means they are Christians. The ones persecuted are Christians!

Christians are the body of Christ, are the Church of Christ, and are the bride of Christ, targeted by the enemy during the Great Tribulation of Christian persecution.

It is entirely about 70 AD, as history confirms.

The expression "nor ever shall be" used by Christ signifies the continuation of time and history and tribulation after 70 AD.

There is no NT Scripture which identifies any NT reference to tribulation as being the final tribulation.

That is dispensational delusion.
 
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ewq1938

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It is entirely about 70 AD, as history confirms.

It was not about 70 AD, and no history confirms that. I also noticed that you did not have anything to say when it was proven the Great Tribulation is solely about Christian persecution.

It is entirely about 70 AD, as history confirms.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Did the events of these verses also take place in 70 AD?
 
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jgr

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No, it has nothing to do with 70 AD.

Verifiable historical fulfillments of Matthew 24.

DECEIVERS


Matthew: "And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you, For many shall come in my name saying, I am Christ, and shall deceive many" (24:4,5).

Mark: "And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you; For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ, and shall deceive many" (13:5,6).

Luke: "And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived; for many shall come in my name saying, I am Christ, and the time draweth near; go ye not therefore after them" (21:8).

Did such deceivers or false Christs arise and deceive many in those years before the destruction of Jerusalem? Yes.

According to Josephus, the noted Jewish historian, twelve years after our Saviour's death, a certain impostor named Theudas persuaded a great multitude to follow him to the river Jordan which he claimed would divide for their passage. At the time of Felix (who is mentioned in the book of Acts), the country of the Jews was filled with impostors who Felix had put to death EVERY DAY—a statement which indicates that there were "many" of such in those days.

An Egyptian who "pretended to be a prophet" gathered 30,000 men, claiming that he would show "how, at his command, the walls of Jerusalem would fall down."

Another deceiver was Simon, a sorcerer, who led people to believe he was the great power of God (See Acts 8). According to Irenaeus, Simon claimed to be the Son of God and creator of angels. Jerome says that he claimed to be the Word of God, the Almighty. Justin relates that he went to Rome and was acclaimed as a god by his magical powers.

Origen mentions a certain wonder-worker, Dositheus, who claimed he was the Christ foretold by Moses. Another deceiver in those days was Barchochebas who, according to Jerome, claimed to vomit flames. Bar-jesus is mentioned in Acts 13:6 as a sorcerer and false prophet. These are examples of the deceivers of whom history says there were "a great number," and of whom Jesus had prophesied that there would be "many."

WARS AND RUMORS OF WARS

Matthew: "And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars. See that ye be not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation shall rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom" (24:6,7).

Mark: "And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled; for such things must needs be, but the end is not yet, For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom" (13:7, 8).

Luke: "But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified; for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by [immediately]. Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom (21:9,10).

We are told that when Jesus gave this prophecy, the Roman Empire was experiencing a general peace within its borders. Jesus explained to his disciples that they would be hearing of wars, rumors of wars, and commotions. And did they? Yes. Within a short time the Empire was filled with strife, insurrection, and wars.

Before the fall of Jerusalem, four Emperors came to violent deaths within the space of 18 months. According to the historian Suetonius (who lived during the latter part of the first century and the beginning of the second), Nero "drove a dagger into his throat.'' Galba was run down by horsemen. A soldier cut off his head and "thrusting his thumb into the mouth," carried the horrid trophy about. Otho "stabbed himself" in the breast. Vitellius was killed by slow torture and then "dragged by a hook into the Tiber." We can understand that such fate falling on the Emperors would naturally spread distress and insecurity through the Empire.

In the Annals of Tacitus, a Roman who wrote a history which covers the period prior to 70 A. D., we find such expressions as these: "Disturbances in Germany," "commotions in Africa," "commotions in Thrace," "insurrections in Gaul," "intrigues among the Parthians," "the war in Britain," "war in Armenia."

Among the Jews, the times became turbulent. In Seleucia, 50,000 Jews were killed. There was an uprising against them in Alexandria. In a battle between the Jews and Syrians in Caesarea, 20,000 were killed. During these times, Caligula ordered his statue placed in the temple at Jerusalem. The Jews refused to do this and lived in constant fear that the Emperor's armies would be sent into Palestine. This fear became so real that some of them did not even bother to till their fields.

But though there would be wars, rumours of wars, and commotions, Jesus told his disciples: "See that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the END is not yet." The word "end" that is used here is not the same Greek word as in the expression "end of the world." As Barnes says, the end here referred to is "the end of the Jewish economy; the destruction of Jerusalem."

Wars, rumors of wars, and commotions were of a general nature. These things were not signs of the end; to the contrary, they were given to show that the end was NOT yet. None of these things would be the sign which would cause the disciples to flee into the mountains.

FAMINES, PESTILENCES, EARTHQUAKES

Matthew. "And there shall be famines and pestilences, and earthquakes in divers places, all these are the beginning of sorrows (24:7,8).

Mark: "And there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles. These are the beginning of sorrows" (13:8).

Luke: "And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines and pestilences, and fearful sights" (21:11).

The Bible records that there was famine "throughout all the world...in the days of Claudius Caesar (Acts 11:28). Judea was especially hard hit by famine. "The disciples, every man according to his ability, determined to send relief unto the brethren which dwelt in Judaea" (verse 29). Paul's instructions concerning this "collection [of fruit] for the saints" is recorded in First Corinthians 16:1-5; Rom. 15:25-28.

Historians such as Suetonius and others mention famine during those years. Tacitus speaks of a "failure in the crops, and a famine consequent thereupon." Eusebius also mentions famines during this time in Rome, Judea, and Greece. Yes, there were famines in those years before the fall of Jerusalem.

Along with famines, Jesus mentioned pestilence; that is, plagues, the spread of disease, epidemics. Famine and pestilence, of course, go hand in hand. When people do not have proper food or insufficient food, pestilence results. Suetonius wrote of "pestilence" at Rome in the days of Nero which was so severe that "within the space of one autumn there died no less than 30,000 persons." Josephus records that pestilences raged in Babylonia in A. D. 40. Tacitus tells of pestilences in Italy in A. D. 65. Yes, there were pestilences in those years before the destruction of Jerusalem.

During this period, Jesus said there would also be earthquakes in many places. Tacitus mentions earthquakes at Rome. He wrote that "Frequent earthquakes occurred, by which many houses were thrown down" and that "twelve populous cities of Asia fell in ruins from an earthquake."

Seneca, writing in the year 58 A. D., said: "How often have cities of Asia and Achaea fallen with one fatal shock! how many cities have been swallowed up in Syria! how many in Macedonia! how often has Cyprus been wasted by this calamity ! how often has Paphos become a ruin! News has often been brought us of the demolition of whole cities at once." He mentions the earthquake at Campania during the reign of Nero. In 60 A.D., Hierapous, Colosse, and Laodicea were overthrown—Laodicea being so self-sufficient that it recovered without the Imperial aid furnished other cities. In 63 A.D,, the city of Pompeii was greatly damaged by earthquake. There were earthquakes in Crete, Apamea, Smyrna, Miletus, Chios, Samos, and Judea. Earthquakes in divers places.

Source: "Great Prophecies of the Bible" by Ralph Woodrow
 
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Zao is life

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The "Days of Vengeance" Luke 21 wrote about were the time of God's vengeance upon that wicked generation which rejected Christ's personal visitation of them during His earthly ministry. Christ went about doing nothing but good for His own people, and in general, they "received Him not" (John 1:11). Part of the blessing Christ gave to that generation was to cast out devils, which seemed to be as prevalent as the common cold in that region and time period. Every one of the 70 Christ sent out returned to Him, rejoicing that the devils were subject to them in Christ's name (Luke 10:17). So demonic oppression of that nation seemed to be a frequent problem.

Because of that wicked generation's ultimate rejection of Christ, He promised them in Matthew 12:43-45 that the same devils which he had cast out of the people would later on return to them, along with seven more devils that were more wicked than the first ones that were originally cast out. This would result in that wicked generation's "last state" being worse than its "first state".

In the time period of AD 66-70, Jerusalem became a prison for every unclean spirit (Revelation 18:2), trapped in the city along with the inhabitants of Jerusalem while it was besieged during those years. Those inhabitants of the city experienced the torment of having the entire demonic realm imprisoned with them inside the walls of the city. This was a unique type of tribulation that had never happened in history before, and would never happen again. Truly a "Great Tribulation". God was going to use that location of Jerusalem and its Lake of Fire, prepared for the Devil and his angels, to get rid of the entire Satanic realm once and for all in those days, as prophesied by Zechariah 13:2, Ezekiel 28:18-19, and Isaiah 24:21-23 and 27:1.
Interesting. My concern about your doctrine is that because the Old Covenant harlot and the New Covenant harlot are of the same spirit, the warnings and judgment that applied to the Old Covenant harlot apply likewise to the New Covenant harlot. There has always been a harlot group among those who call themselves by the name of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and what has happened before will happen again, and should be a warning for us.

But your doctrine gives Christians a false sense of security and an unwarranted complacency.

The message of Israel's true prophets was always rejected and the true prophets hated by those who chose to stop their ears to the truth, and it's quite high-minded to point fingers at a past harlot without considering whether or not the covenant people's behavior in our own day might likewise come under God's judgment of some, and purging of others in the process, that they may become clothed in white garments through the fiery trial, thus separating the wheat from the tares.
 
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Zao is life

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There are numerous references to different tribulations throughout the NT.

None of them is identified as final.
But there has to be a final one otherwise they will continue indefinitely.
 
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Zao is life

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Tell any historically knowledgeable Jew that AD 70 was not "a tribulation at all".
I wouldn't try.

If only we could all understand that tribulation is just a word which describes the experience of humans, whether Jews or Gentiles, believers or unbelievers, and the tribulation being experienced may or may not be as a result of God's judgment: sometimes it's just "the beast" (Pharaoh, Antiochus, Nero etc) bringing tribulation upon believers, and if only we could all just understand that the word megas (great) is just an adjective which describes the intensity of the tribulation.

And what we really should understand that the term megas thlipsis (great tribulation) is only used three times in the New Testament, where two of them is unambiguously referring to the tribulation of saints, and the other one is debated over.
 
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Copy @jgr

My concern about the doctrine of those who place what is written about great tribulation in first-century history, or in history at any other point in time since then, is that because the Old Covenant harlot and the New Covenant harlot are of the same spirit, the warnings and judgment that applied to the Old Covenant harlot apply likewise to the New Covenant harlot.

There has always been a harlot group among those who call themselves by the name of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and what has happened before will happen again, and should be a warning for us.

But the doctrine that places great tribulation all in history gives Christians a false sense of security and an unwarranted complacency.

The message of Israel's true prophets was always rejected and hated by those who chose to block their ears to the truth,

and it's quite high-minded to point fingers at the harlot part of God's covenant people of the past, without even considering whether or not the covenant people's behavior in our own day might likewise come under God's judgment of some, and purging of others in the process, that they may become clothed in white garments through the fiery trial, thus separating the wheat from the tares.
 
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