Reading Daniel in Chronological Order

Humble Penny

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Not sure why I am so obssessed with chronology and getting things in their proper timeline, but I clearly am...maybe I just like elegant and beautiful patterns, and am drawn to symmetry. Anyways after reading the opening lines of each chapter of Daniel I couldn't help but notice that the timelines were out of place as well as the order of the reign of the kings.

Daniel 1 begins precisely with the 3rd Year of king Jehoiakim of Judah which marks the 1st Year of king Nebuchadnezzar I. This lines up with what we read in 2 Kings, 2 Chronicles, and Jeremiah who all tell us near the end of their narratives that the complete carryng off of the Jews occured in the 19th Year of Nebuchadnezzar I:

Beginning from the 3rd Year of king Jehoiakim of Judah
8 Years (Jehoiakim)
3 Months (Jehoiachin)
11 Years (Mattanih/Zedekiah)
19 Years 6 Months (19th Year of Nebuchadnezzar I)

The addtional 3 Months is from king Joahaz who ruled prior to Jehoiakim which I added to truly show how much time had passed from then to the 19th Year of Nebuchadnezzar I. From Daniel 2 thru 4 we read of the 2nd Year of Nebuchadnezzar II to the end of his reign: prior to him we read that Evil-Merodach reigned for an unspecified amount of time in the three above mentioned writings. From here we should read Daniel 7, 8, and then 5 for the fifth chapter tells us the end of Belshazzar's reign and his death at the hands of Darius the Mede who was then 62 Years old (Daniel 5:30-31); this is important to know because Belshazzar would've been reigning in the absence of his father Nebuchadnezzar II who was driven into madness by God for 7 Years as he lived in the wild like a beast.

The histories of Darius the Mede are covered in Daniel 6, 9, 11, and 12; and finally the book of Daniel should conclude with the 3rd Year of Cyrus the Great in Daniel 10. This is the true order of the kings:

Judah
3 Months (Joahaz)
11 Years (Jehoiakm)
3 Months (Jehoiachin)
11 Years (Mattaniah/Zedekiah)
22 Years 6 Months

Babylon (Head of Gold)
43 Years (Nebuchadnezzar I)
?? Years (Evil-Merodach)
22 Years (Nebuchadnezzar II)
7 Years (Belshazzar)
72 Years

Medo-Persia (Chest & Arms of Silver)
17 Years (Darius the Mede)
...here ends the kingdom of the Medes, from here the Persians rule..
43 Years ([36] Cyrus the Great + [6] Artaxerxes)
38 Years (Darius in whose reign the Temple was rebuilt by Zorobabel.)
32 Years (Artaxerxes)
6 Years (Darius was defeated by Alexander of Macedon)
136 Years

While I couldn't find any explicit evidence of Esther and Mordecai doing anything during the reign of Cyrus the Great: Esther would've lived during the reign of the later Artaxerxes with her uncle; and, Ezra 6 only mentions three Persian kings which means Ezra and Nehemiah would've likely died toward the end of the later Artaxerxes. However Ezra 1 does mention the 1st Year of Cyrus which means at the very least that Ezra & Nehemiah still being young men would've lived around this time..Mordecai would've lived later as he is the uncle--not the grandpa--of Esther.

In closing the correct chronological order in which Daniel should be read is as follows:

  1. Daniel 1 thru 4
  2. Daniel 7, 8, & 5
  3. Daniel 6, 9, 11, & 12
  4. Daniel 10
 
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The histories of Darius the Mede are covered in Daniel 6, 9, 11, and 12; and finally the book of Daniel should conclude with the 3rd Year of Cyrus the Great in Daniel 10. This is the true order of the kings:

I'm going to mention something I once heard about Cyrus and Darius, to ask you if you have ever heard of the same thing. And I'm sorry, but I can't remember the source of this suggestion, so maybe somebody else reading this has heard of this before. The proposal is that Cyrus WAS Darius. This is based on the alternate definition of the Greek word "kai" in Ezra 6:14 (and in some other text I forgot). It goes, "And the elders of the Jews builded, and they prospered through the prophesying of Haggai the prophet, and Zechariah the son of Iddo. And they builded, and finished it, according to the commandment of the God of Israel, and according to the commandment of Cyrus, AND ("kai") Darius, and Artaxerxes king of Persia."

For those who are students of the Greek, the word "kai" doesn't necessarily function as a conjunction meaning "in addition to". Many times "kai" can also be used in an explanatory sense, such as "namely", or "specifically", or "even". An example would be the verse "Blessed be the God and ("kai") Father of our Lord Jesus Christ..." This verse is NOT saying there is a God of our Lord Jesus Christ, AND ALSO a Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. It means "Blessed be God, NAMELY the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ..."

The proposal with this Ezra 6:14 text is that the word "kai" should be used in the same type of explanatory sense; "...And they builded, and finished it, according to the commandment of the God of Israel, and according to the commandment of Cyrus, ("kai") NAMELY Darius, and Artaxerxes king of Persia."

What does this do to your Daniel chronology, if this is the correct interpretation of the Greek word "kai" in this text?

(By the way, you are not the only one who is fascinated with chronologies and patterns in scripture, and getting things in the proper order on the timeline.)
 
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Humble Penny

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I'm going to mention something I once heard about Cyrus and Darius, to ask you if you have ever heard of the same thing. And I'm sorry, but I can't remember the source of this suggestion, so maybe somebody else reading this has heard of this before. The proposal is that Cyrus WAS Darius. This is based on the alternate definition of the Greek word "kai" in Ezra 6:14 (and in some other text I forgot). It goes, "And the elders of the Jews builded, and they prospered through the prophesying of Haggai the prophet, and Zechariah the son of Iddo. And they builded, and finished it, according to the commandment of the God of Israel, and according to the commandment of Cyrus, AND ("kai") Darius, and Artaxerxes king of Persia."

For those who are students of the Greek, the word "kai" doesn't necessarily function as a conjunction meaning "in addition to". Many times "kai" can also be used in an explanatory sense, such as "namely", or "specifically", or "even". An example would be the verse "Blessed be the God and ("kai") Father of our Lord Jesus Christ..." This verse is NOT saying there is a God of our Lord Jesus Christ, AND ALSO a Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. It means "Blessed be God, NAMELY the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ..."

The proposal with this Ezra 6:14 text is that the word "kai" should be used in the same type of explanatory sense; "...And they builded, and finished it, according to the commandment of the God of Israel, and according to the commandment of Cyrus, ("kai") NAMELY Darius, and Artaxerxes king of Persia."

What does this do to your Daniel chronology, if this is the interpretation of the Greek word kai in this text?

(By the way, you are not the only one who is fascinated with chronologies and patterns in scripture, and getting things in the proper order on the timeline.)
Hmmm...not a student of Greek--or any languages outside of English--but, can't say I ever heard what you brought up until today. From what little I have read of the Bible in Greek, it's pretty consistent that kai is literally "and". Not sure why it would all of a sudden change in meaning because of one passage from Ezra. And this hypothesis you bring up wouldn't even make sense as the narrative of Ezra is clear that there were three different Persian kings named who gave proclamations to rebuild Jerusalem and the Temple. And neither of the histories of Herodotus, Xenophon, or Josephus mention anything to support your claim...nor do any of the histories of the later church historians.

Other than that I never claimed to be the only person fascinated with getting biblical chronology correct...only that I can't explain my obsession with such a subject.
 
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Humble Penny

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I'm going to mention something I once heard about Cyrus and Darius, to ask you if you have ever heard of the same thing. And I'm sorry, but I can't remember the source of this suggestion, so maybe somebody else reading this has heard of this before. The proposal is that Cyrus WAS Darius. This is based on the alternate definition of the Greek word "kai" in Ezra 6:14 (and in some other text I forgot). It goes, "And the elders of the Jews builded, and they prospered through the prophesying of Haggai the prophet, and Zechariah the son of Iddo. And they builded, and finished it, according to the commandment of the God of Israel, and according to the commandment of Cyrus, AND ("kai") Darius, and Artaxerxes king of Persia."

For those who are students of the Greek, the word "kai" doesn't necessarily function as a conjunction meaning "in addition to". Many times "kai" can also be used in an explanatory sense, such as "namely", or "specifically", or "even". An example would be the verse "Blessed be the God and ("kai") Father of our Lord Jesus Christ..." This verse is NOT saying there is a God of our Lord Jesus Christ, AND ALSO a Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. It means "Blessed be God, NAMELY the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ..."

The proposal with this Ezra 6:14 text is that the word "kai" should be used in the same type of explanatory sense; "...And they builded, and finished it, according to the commandment of the God of Israel, and according to the commandment of Cyrus, ("kai") NAMELY Darius, and Artaxerxes king of Persia."

What does this do to your Daniel chronology, if this is the correct interpretation of the Greek word "kai" in this text?

(By the way, you are not the only one who is fascinated with chronologies and patterns in scripture, and getting things in the proper order on the timeline.)
This odd hypothesis you propose would also have to explain why God doesn't address Cyrus by any other name when speaking through Isaiah the prophet:

"I say to Cyrus, ‘You are the one who will rule for me; you will do what I want you to do: you will order that Jerusalem be rebuilt and that the foundations of the Temple be laid.’”
Isaiah 44:28 GNTD

"The Lord has chosen Cyrus to be king. He has appointed him to conquer nations; he sends him to strip kings of their power; the Lord will open the gates of cities for him. To Cyrus the Lord says, “I myself will prepare your way, leveling mountains and hills. I will break down bronze gates and smash their iron bars. I will give you treasures from dark, secret places; then you will know that I am the Lord and that the God of Israel has called you by name. I appoint you to help my servant Israel, the people that I have chosen. I have given you great honor, although you do not know me. “I am the Lord; there is no other god. I will give you the strength you need, although you do not know me. I do this so that everyone from one end of the world to the other may know that I am the Lord and that there is no other god. I create both light and darkness; I bring both blessing and disaster. I, the Lord, do all these things. I will send victory from the sky like rain; the earth will open to receive it and will blossom with freedom and justice. I, the Lord, will make this happen.
Isaiah 45:1‭-‬8 GNTD

Don't know about you but...seems the name of Cyrus is pretty cut and dry...the Lord chose Cyrus not Darius...
 
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Christian Gedge

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Don't know about you but...seems the name of Cyrus is pretty cut and dry...the Lord chose Cyrus not Darius...

Certainly, Cyrus was prophetically named by God far in advance of his birth as the one who would conquer nations, and have the two-leaved gates of brass broken open before him. This was a prophecy that Cyrus fulfilled by diverting the Euphrates River into side channels, and lowering the level of the river enough so that his army could break into the city of Babylon through those main water gates during the night of Belshazzar's feast.

Yet Daniel 5:30-31 clearly states that it was Darius who took the kingdom that night from Belshazzar. The only solution is that Cyrus and Darius are one and the same man. This would explain the great favor and heart-felt sympathy that Daniel had under Darius. If Darius as Cyrus knew that the God of Israel had named him in particular to conquer the Babylonian empire, even long before he was ever born, this would have made a real impression on Cyrus, and predisposed him to believe in Daniel's one true God.

I don't have the particular examples, but I have been told that there are other instances of kings having a regnal name as well as a personal name. (I think Esther's husband?) We know, for instance, that Sheshbazzar of Ezra 1:8 was the same individual as Zerubbabel the governer in Ezra 5:14 who started and finished the post-exilic temple. So, two names for one individual are not an unheard-of thing in scripture.
 
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Humble Penny

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Certainly, Cyrus was prophetically named by God far in advance of his birth as the one who would conquer nations, and have the two-leaved gates of brass broken open before him. This was a prophecy that Cyrus fulfilled by diverting the Euphrates River into side channels, and lowering the level of the river enough so that his army could break into the city of Babylon through those main water gates during the night of Belshazzar's feast.

Yet Daniel 5:30-31 clearly states that it was Darius who took the kingdom that night from Belshazzar. The only solution is that Cyrus and Darius are one and the same man. This would explain the great favor and heart-felt sympathy that Daniel had under Darius. If Darius as Cyrus knew that the God of Israel had named him in particular to conquer the Babylonian empire, even long before he was ever born, this would have made a real impression on Cyrus, and predisposed him to believe in Daniel's one true God.

I don't have the particular examples, but I have been told that there are other instances of kings having a regnal name as well as a personal name. (I think Esther's husband?) We know, for instance, that Sheshbazzar of Ezra 1:8 was the same individual as Zerubbabel the governer in Ezra 5:14 who started and finished the post-exilic temple. So, two names for one individual are not an unheard-of thing in scripture.
Definitely agree that it is not uncommon for people or kings to have two names in use. However Scripture made it clear that Darius would be the one to take Belshazzar by surprise. I believe Herodotus and Xenophon speak of Cyrus the Persian and Darius the Mede taking the city of Babylon by surprise during a great celebration which invloved the whole city and the guards of Belshazzar.

While I don't recall any contemporary ancient historians referring to Cyrus the Great as Darius...I do recall reading Josephus in Antiquity of the Jews calling Cyrus "Cambyses".

So...while not explicitly stated by Scripture it would seem that Darius the Mede and Cyrus the Persian (before he liberated the Jews) would perform a joint attack on Babylon by using their water gate.

Thoughts?
 
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Humble Penny

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After reading the book of Daniel in the revised order I gave in my OP I was absolutely blown away with how easily the narrative flowed! And I came to understand that Daniel 9 marks the opening of the 70 Week prophecy; Daniel 11 continues and expands on the details which cover the time from Cyrus the Great to Darius who was defeated by Alexander the Great at the battle of Gaugamela, all the way to the death of Alexander when he divides his kingdom between his four generals, and then covers the rivarly of the ptolemies with the seleucids all the way down to the Maccabean revolt and the death of Cleopatra and Mark Antony; and Daniel 12 gives us the conclusion of the 70 Week prophecy: and this all occured in the 1st Year of Darius the Mede.

For those who don't know keep in mind that the Medes are descended from Madai the son of Japheth; and, the Persians are known by the Hebrews as Elamites whose ancestor is Elam the son of Shem. This can be confirmed in the Table of Nations of Genesis 10.
 
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Humble Penny, not sure if I am reading you correctly or not. Are you saying that the entire 70th week of prophecy had occurred by the first year of Darius the Mede? Or that the prophecy was given by that first year?

Personally, I am convinced that the no-gap 70 week prophecy dedicated to Daniel's people extended from 454 BC's decree in Nehemiah 2 (Artaxerxes' 20th year) until AD 37 when Paul received his commission from God in the Jerusalem temple to go "far hence unto the Gentiles".
 
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Humble Penny

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Humble Penny, not sure if I am reading you correctly or not. Are you saying that the entire 70th week of prophecy had occurred by the first year of Darius the Mede? Or that the prophecy was given by that first year?

Personally, I am convinced that the no-gap 70 week prophecy dedicated to Daniel's people extended from 454 BC's decree in Nehemiah 2 (Artaxerxes' 20th year) until AD 37 when Paul received his commission from God in the Jerusalem temple to go "far hence unto the Gentiles".
No...I am saying that Daniel received the entire vision of the 70 Weeks during the 1st Year of Darius the Mede: the first 7 Weeks begin in the 1st Year of Cyrus the Great and end in the 6th Year of Darius as we read in Ezra 6:14. From here Weeks 8 thru 69 cover the remaining years of the Persian Empire, the reign of Alexander the Great to the death of Cleopatra and Mark Antony, and finally concludes with the death of Christ on the cross; and, finally the 70th Week is only spoken of by Daniel and Revelation which are the only two prophetic books concerned with the final 3.5 Years of the world in the final 70th Week/7 Years of Daniel 9.

If you read the 70 Weeks of Daniel as having "no gaps" then you will run into major errors as this doesn't fit the Maccabean period during the time of Antiochus Epiphanes, nor would it fit the timeline of the destruction of the Second Temple by Titus Vespasian which took place 40 Years--not 7 Years--after the death of Christ. The words of Jesus in Matthew 24 clearly tell you the abomination of desolation is connected to the "Great Tribulation" and the 70th Week of Daniel: all things which must occur before the Second Coming of Yeshua the Messiah.
 
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Christian Gedge

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Wow you've got lots of heavy writing! I'll have to read your work carefully before giving my thoughts so we can have a proper discussion. Thanks again!
Ive just done a scan of your topics in this forum and notice how many deal with issues key to Bible chronology. Is there any one in particular that you would like me to join for discussion? Alternatively, would you like me to start a new thread based on one of my book chapters?
 
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Humble Penny

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Ive just done a scan of your topics in this forum and notice how many deal with issues key to Bible chronology. Is there any one in particular that you would like me to join for discussion? Alternatively, would you like me to start a new thread based on one of my book chapters?
Awesome! I believe if you created a new thread where we can discuss and share our notes that would be much more useful. Seeing that you scanned through much if the key issues I've raised you can bring them up there as well and we can see how well our findings line up with Scripture and with what we read of in the annals of history.
 
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Humble Penny

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Ive just done a scan of your topics in this forum and notice how many deal with issues key to Bible chronology. Is there any one in particular that you would like me to join for discussion? Alternatively, would you like me to start a new thread based on one of my book chapters?
And since it will take me some time to go through your writings I believe it's only appropriate if you could give an overview of your work. From there we can discuss things little by little.
 
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