Christians and masks: what am I missing?

[probinson]

It's fair to disagree with vaccine mandates, but that just can't be rightfully confused with the idea that the vaccines aren't saving hundreds of lives on a daily basis over the past 6-9 months.

Here's why I have a problem with this assessment.

Person A gets COVID. Person A is unvaccinated. Person A survives. Person A is "lucky".

Person B gets COVID. Person B is vaccinated. Person B survives. Person B was SAVED BY THE VACCINE!

Every person that gets COVID that is vaccinated and survives credits the vaccine for "saving" them. This is the only way one can make the claim that vaccines "save" lives. But there is no way to know that is actually the case.

I had COVID and was unvaccinated. I was sick for about 10 days, with a fever primarily, and I recovered.

My wife got COVID at about the same time and was unvaccinated. She was sick for about the same amount of time and had abdominal discomfort, and she recovered.

My son got COVID at about the same time and was unvaccinated. He was sick for 3 days with a low-grade fever, and recovered.

My 83-year old, diabetic father got COVID before vaccines were available. He ended up hospitalized for 2 days because he was dehydrated, but he fully recovered.

My 79-year old mother got COVID before vaccines were available. She was fatigued and had a minor cough, and she fully recovered.

My unvaccinated co-worker got COVID in November. He had a fever for about 48 hours and felt tired for about a week, and he fully recovered.

My sister and brother-in-law got COVID last year before any vaccine was available. They had general flu-like symptoms for about a week, and they fully recovered.

I could go on (and on and on), but this is sufficient to make my point. I've listed 6 instances of infection that I am personally acquainted with. Had any of those infections happened when we were vaccinated, then they would loudly proclaim that the vaccine "saved our lives". But they would be wrong, because in all of the instances above without any vaccine in the equation, no life was lost.

So it is a vast overestimation to state that anyone who is vaccinated and contracts COVID is "saved" by the vaccine, because the data shows that unless you are elderly or have serious co-morbidities, your risk of mortality is quite low to begin with.

I'm not suggesting that vaccines aren't efficacious. I'm saying that the gilding of the lily has been immense, which has driven distrust.

 

[Captain Ahab]

Here's why I have a problem with this assessment.

Person A gets COVID. Person A is unvaccinated. Person A survives. Person A is "lucky".

Person B gets COVID. Person B is vaccinated. Person B survives. Person B was SAVED BY THE VACCINE!

Every person that gets COVID that is vaccinated and survives credits the vaccine for "saving" them. This is the only way one can make the claim that vaccines "save" lives. But there is no way to know that is actually the case.

I had COVID and was unvaccinated. I was sick for about 10 days, with a fever primarily, and I recovered.

My wife got COVID at about the same time and was unvaccinated. She was sick for about the same amount of time and had abdominal discomfort, and she recovered.

My son got COVID at about the same time and was unvaccinated. He was sick for 3 days with a low-grade fever, and recovered.

My 83-year old, diabetic father got COVID before vaccines were available. He ended up hospitalized for 2 days because he was dehydrated, but he fully recovered.

My 79-year old mother got COVID before vaccines were available. She was fatigued and had a minor cough, and she fully recovered.

My unvaccinated co-worker got COVID in November. He had a fever for about 48 hours and felt tired for about a week, and he fully recovered.

My sister and brother-in-law got COVID last year before any vaccine was available. They had general flu-like symptoms for about a week, and they fully recovered.

I could go on (and on and on), but this is sufficient to make my point. I've listed 6 instances of infection that I am personally acquainted with. Had any of those infections happened when we were vaccinated, then they would loudly proclaim that the vaccine "saved our lives". But they would be wrong, because in all of the instances above without any vaccine in the equation, no life was lost.

So it is a vast overestimation to state that anyone who is vaccinated and contracts COVID is "saved" by the vaccine, because the data shows that unless you are elderly or have serious co-morbidities, your risk of mortality is quite low to begin with.

I'm not suggesting that vaccines aren't efficacious. I'm saying that the gilding of the lily has been immense, which has driven distrust.

And whenever a vaccinated person dies, ‘it would have been far worse had they not been vaccinated’.

 

[Job 33:6]

I guess we can just restart the clock on the conversation here.

Based on the above data from Wisconsin for this past November, how can anyone logically argue that vaccines aren't saving lives? 35 unvaccinated deaths vs 3 vaccinated deaths per 100,000 cases.

What these data tell us is that the vaccinated have a 10x higher probability of surviving than unvaccinated.

Which is how we know that across the nation, the vaccines are saving literally hundreds of lives every single day. Because of the 1200 or so that are dying every single day, unvaccinated are making up an overwhelming majority.

 

[Job 33:6]

I guess we can just restart the clock on the conversation here.

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Based on the above data from Wisconsin for this past November, how can anyone logically argue that vaccines aren't saving lives? 35 unvaccinated deaths vs 3 vaccinated deaths per 100,000 cases.

What these data tell us is that the vaccinated have a 10x higher probability of surviving than unvaccinated.

Which is how we know that across the nation, the vaccines are saving literally hundreds of lives every single day. Because of the 1200 or so that are dying every single day, unvaccinated are making up an overwhelming majority.

Is everyone able to see how there is a lot more red (unvaccinated) in the above versus blue (vaccinated)?

Or in the above diagram. Is everyone able to see how the blue line is 20x greater than the red line during the September wave?

How can anyone argue that the vaccines aren't saving lives when the unvaccinated are dying at rates 20x higher than the vaccinated?

 

[RDKirk]

Back to the topic of the OP, there is a growing consensus that cloth and "surgical" masks aren't helping. One expert (that recommended them repeatedly, shown in screenshot below) now calls them "facial decorations". This is why we're seeing a pivot to people pushing N95's, because it's apparent to anyone paying attention that the cloth and "surgical" masks recommended for the last 2 years haven't really done anything, and the data has become too voluminous to ignore.

I knew from day one, back in Feb 2019, that cloth and regular surgical masks were unreliable. I had a few N-95 masks on hand because I do a lot of spray painting. But knowing it would be at least two years before a vaccine was developed and deployed, I also bought an ample supply of HEPA filters if I needed to make my own masks.

That was back in Feb 2019. I didn't have any more information than anyone else, but I could read between the lines...they weren't trying to husband N-95 masks only for medical personnel for nothing.

 

[mama2one]

now multiple people on BOTH sides of family have had covid...most around Christmas

husband, teen, & I have not, knock on wood
only difference is we wear masks & distance

the people who got covid didn't mask, nor distance

 

[probinson]

Based on the above data from Wisconsin for this past November, how can anyone logically argue that vaccines aren't saving lives? 35 unvaccinated deaths vs 3 vaccinated deaths per 100,000 cases.

What these data tell us is that the vaccinated have a 10x higher probability of surviving than unvaccinated.

Or, the people who have been vaccinated had a high probability of surviving anyway, and the efficacy of the vaccine is being overstated.

Take for example an 18-year old that is vaccinated that gets COVID and survives. Did they survive because they were vaccinated, or did they survive because COVID presents an infinitesimally small risk to 18-year olds regardless of their vaccination status?

I've used this analogy before. It's like putting a sign in your front yard that says "NO ELEPHANTS ALLOWED" and then loudly and proudly proclaiming the reason you don't have any elephants in your yard is because there is a sign that prohibits them.

It's actually a brilliant strategy (for Pfizer and Moderna). Let's vaccinate (and boost) the LEAST vulnerable people and then claim the reason they survived the infection is because of the vaccine. I continue to be amazed at the people that are blind to this gilding of the lily.

 

[probinson]

now multiple people on BOTH sides of family have had covid...most around Christmas

husband, teen, & I have not, knock on wood
only difference is we wear masks & distance

the people who got covid didn't mask, nor distance

I genuinely feel it is a mistake to ascribe blame to someone for being infected (i.e. they got infected because they didn't mask or distance). Because the reality of the situation is, you've not been infected... until you have.

A few people in my family have learned that lesson in the last 2 weeks. They were all proud about what a great job they had done in avoiding COVID, and of course they said it was because they were vaccinated, boosted, masked and they had "done everything right". And yet they still somehow found themselves infected with symptoms and feeling miserable even though they "did everything right". Interestingly enough, they had symptoms that were very similar to mine when I had COVID as an unvaccinated male in my mid 40's. And they were more than a decade younger than me.

To quote Dr. Martin Kulldorff, "There is no moral virtue in avoiding COVID. It's a virus, not a sin."

 

[mama2one]

I genuinely feel it is a mistake to ascribe blame to someone for being infected (i.e. they got infected because they didn't mask or distance)"

it's the truth, though

family 1 re post 126 has college student who went to a retreat, unmasked....got covid & infected family

family 2 has unvaccinated conspiracy theory person who believes "vaccine takes away faith in God"
who do you think brought covid to this family?

 

[Job 33:6]

Or, the people who have been vaccinated had a high probability of surviving anyway, and the efficacy of the vaccine is being overstated.

It's not just a mere coincidence.

Blind studies have shown that unvaccinated people are more likely to contract the virus than vaccinated. And those that are hospitalized with the virus that are unvaccinated are more likely to die than those hospitalized that are vaccinated.

See here:
Christians and masks: what am I missing?

 

[probinson]

it's the truth, though

No, it's not.

The disillusionment of those that "did everything right" is becoming palpable. Vaccinated, boosted, masked... doesn't matter. Seems like everyone is testing positive for COVID. Late night hosts, nearly fully vaccinated colleges, vaccinated NFL players, vaccinated health care workers, AOC... you can literally read any news source and find more vaccinated, boosted people testing positive for COVID.

Vaccinated or not, everyone is likely to get COVID-19 at some point, many experts say – Orange County Register

 

[probinson]

Blind studies have shown that unvaccinated people are more likely to contract the virus than vaccinated.

Not even the CDC says this any more. Omicron has changed the game, in case you've missed it. Heck, even the CEO of Pfizer now admits that two doses of the vaccine won't protect you from infection, and possibly not even hospitalization (emphasis added);

Pfizer CEO Albert Bourla on Monday said two doses of the company's vaccine may not provide strong protection against infection from the omicron Covid variant, and the original shots have also lost some of their efficacy at preventing hospitalization.​

...

Two-doses of Pfizer or Moderna's vaccines are only about 10% effective at preventing infection from omicron 20 weeks after the second dose, according to the U.K. data.

...

The U.K. Health Security Agency also found that boosters are only 40% to 50% effective against infection 10 weeks after receiving the shot.

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/01/10/pfi...d-vaccine-doses-arent-enough-for-omicron.html​

So let's assume for a moment that you get your first dose of the Pfizer vaccine on January 1. You would then be eligible for your second dose on January 22, and you would be "fully vaccinated" by February 5. The process to become considered "fully vaccinated" with the Pfizer takes 5 full weeks. Then, the data suggests that you're good for about 20 weeks from the date of your second dose. That would mean you're due for a "booster" by June 25. But that booster only protects you for about 10 weeks, meaning that by September 3, you've lost substantial protection. Keep in mind that you were not "protected" until February 5 (date of "fully vaccinated" status) and your protection is now substantially and rapidly waning by September 3. That's a paltry 210 days of protection. This three dosing regimen can't even get you through the entire year, and even if you added a fourth dose that gave you 10 more weeks, you'd still only make it to November 12 before you needed a FIFTH dose! 5 doses of vaccine to get you ALMOST one year of protection (because you'd need yet another booster on January 21 of the following year, and your protection didn't kick in until February 5).

So what's the plan? Boosters every 10 weeks for the rest of your life? Is this what a vaccine that "works" looks like?

I asked before but I'll ask again; what metric would you need to see to convince you that these vaccines aren't "working" as well as you've been told?

 

[Job 33:6]

Not even the CDC says this any more. Omicron has changed the game, in case you've missed it. Heck, even the CEO of Pfizer now admits that two doses of the vaccine won't protect you from infection, and possibly not even hospitalization (emphasis added)

So what's the plan? Boosters every 10 weeks for the rest of your life? Is this what a vaccine that "works" looks like?

I asked before but I'll ask again; what metric would you need to see to convince you that these vaccines aren't "working" as well as you've been told?

Let's take it from the top.

This isn't mere coincidence or chance that we have mass dying of the unvaccinated. Studies have shown that not only does vaccination decrease the quantity of people who get infected, but vaccination also helps people kill the virus faster, which also results in less transmission. As you've noted above 50% efficacy. That means the boosters would stop 50% of people from even contracting the virus, let alone being hospitalized or dying of it.

In order to demonstrate to me that the vaccines aren't working, I would have to see vaccinated people dying at rates of the unvaccinated. It's that simple.

Nationwide, state by state it's the same data. The unvaccinated are flooding the hospitals.

 

[klutedavid]

Let's take it from the top.

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This isn't mere coincidence or chance that we have mass dying of the unvaccinated. Studies have shown that not only does vaccination decrease the quantity of people who get infected, but vaccination also helps people kill the virus faster, which also results in less transmission.

In order to demonstrate to me that the vaccines aren't working, I would have to see vaccinated people dying at rates of the unvaccinated. It's that simple.

Nationwide, state by state it's the same data. The unvaccinated are flooding the hospitals.

You may need to keep repeating that post, as it may take time to sink in.

Better to get vaccinated than roll the dice.

 

[Job 33:6]

You may need to keep repeating that post, as it may take time to sink in.

Better to get vaccinated than roll the dice.

Absolutely.

Here's another thing anti-vaxxers don't seem to talk about much, it's that if you're vaccinated and you have a breakthrough infection, then you'll end up developing natural antibodies anyway and you'll still have a significantly decreased probability of hospitalization and death due to vaccination. Vaccination doesn't stop people from developing natural immunity in breakthrough infections.

Vaccination is simply a win-win, and the data shows it.

Don't get vaccinated = higher risk of infection, transmission, hospitalization and death.

Get vaccinated = lower risk of infection, transmission, hospitalization and death.

Natural immunity + vaccine = lower risk of infection, transmission, hospitalization and death.

Vaccine + natural immunity = lower risk of infection, transmission, hospitalization and death.

Natural immunity without vaccination (if you survive) = a lowered (but not optimal) risk of infection, transmission, hospitalization and death.

And lastly, for those who are anti vax and promote natural immunity as the only way to go, well, tell that to the unvaccinated dead Americans that now number in the hundreds of thousands who's natural immunity failed them.

It really is that simple.

 

[probinson]

The intellectual level of many pro-vaxxers has become very caveman-like in nature;

Vaccine good! More vaccine better!​

However, some caution is advised in pretending like vaccines prevent infections. I mean, not even Mr. Science himself, Dr. Fauci, thinks that's true any more;

The omicron coronavirus variant will infect “just about everybody” regardless of vaccination status, top U.S. infectious-disease expert Anthony S. Fauci said Tuesday.​

Dr. Fauci is even hedging his bets on how you'll do if you're vaccinated and get infected;

But those who have been vaccinated will “very likely, with some exceptions, do reasonably well,” and avoid hospitalization and death, he added...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2022/01/12/covid-omicron-variant-live-updates/​

"Very likely" do "reasonably well" with "some exceptions". How reassuring. Weasel words abound to allow for plausible deniabiltiy.

Meanwhile in the land of reality, there is a growing consensus that excessive boosters may well damage your immune response;

Europe's drug regulator joins WHO in pushback against excessive COVID boosters

The CEO of Pfizer flatly admitted just a few days ago that two doses of the vaccine offer almost no protection at all from Omicron.

But you know, these vaccines "work", because we have nifty graphics that prove it!

 

[Christopher0121]

Look guys... the only thing we as individuals can do to try and protect ourselves from this virus is wear the appropriate mask, practice common sense social distancing, get vaccinated, stay current with boosters. That's about it.

The vaccine will NOT 100% prevent you from getting COVID. Nor does it prevent you from being able to spread COVID should you have a break through infection. Your break through infection might be asymptomatic, so don't think feeling fine means you're safe to others. Get tested if you've been exposed to someone you know has COVID. However, what the vaccine does apparently do for you is ensure that should you get sick, you have a relatively mild illness compared to others who are not vaccinated. You will most likely be able to weather it at home with soup and bedrest.

This is my understanding. Now let's do our best to just be decent and conscientious human beings. We are our brother's keeper.

 

[probinson]

Vaccination is simply a win-win, and the data shows it.

Here's some data for you that calls into question that assessment. This is a summary of adverse event reporting for COVID vaccines from VAERS;

COVID Vaccine Data

It would seem that vaccination was not a "win-win" for everyone. Especially not the 20,000+ that died. And before someone says VAERS is not reliable, let's take a look at all vaccine deaths reported to VAERS historically vs. since the COVID vaccines were introduced;

Prior to the introduction of COVID vaccines, the highest number of deaths from all vaccines reported to VAERS in a single year was 605 in 2019. In 2021, that number skyrocketed to 21,890. Now even if all or even most of those VAERS reports aren't accurate, wouldn't you think a 3,518% increase in reports would warrant at least a little concern? And maybe, like with every other medical intervention, cause people to realize that the risk/benefit calculus is different for every individual?

Don't get vaccinated = higher risk of infection, transmission,

At this point, your repeating of this is bordering on intentional disinformation. Dr. Fauci has already said everyone is very likely going to get COVID regardless of their vaccination status (see above post). That means that their risk of infection is almost 100%.

hospitalization and death.

Pfizer's CEO says otherwise. Unless of course you also take the booster, which will provide you with a whopping 10 weeks more "protection", according to current data. But then you might want to be careful that boosters don't begin to impede your immune response, as a growing body of experts is warning.

 

[probinson]

Look guys... the only thing we as individuals can do to try and protect ourselves from this virus is wear the appropriate mask,

Because that's worked so well up to this point.

practice common sense social distancing,

If by "common sense social distancing" you mean staying home and away from others when you're sick, I agree. If by "common sense social distancing" you mean keeping 6 feet of distance between you and others, that's yet another performative, useless action.

get vaccinated,

The CEO of Pfizer says that two shots of their vaccine will not protect you from getting, nor transmitting the Omicron variant.

stay current with boosters.

Unless boosters actually impede immune response, in which case getting boosted actually puts you and others at increased risk;

Europe’s drug regulator warns excessive COVID boosters could lead to ‘problems with immune response,’ joining WHO in pushback

The vaccine will NOT 100% prevent you from getting COVID.

That's a candidate for understatement of the year, and we're only 12 days in;

"Omicron, with its extraordinary, unprecedented degree of efficiency of transmissibility, will, ultimately, find just about everybody." -Dr. Fauci

Fauci: Omicron will infect 'just about everybody'​

"Just about everybody" includes those who are vaccinated and boosted. So it would be more accurate to say that the vaccine will provide almost 0% protection from getting infected, according to Dr. Fauci.

However, what the vaccine does apparently do for you is ensure that should you get sick, you have a relatively mild illness compared to others who are not vaccinated.

Except they don't really seem to do that very well either. Take a look at this data from Ontario;

Source: Hospitalizations

1,813 fully vaccinated people in the hospital, 167 more in ICU. Interestingly, both are higher in the fully vaccinated group.

 

[probinson]

An open letter from Professor Ehud Qimron, one of the leading Israeli immunologists and head of the Department of Microbiology and Immunology at Tel Aviv University;

In the end, the truth will always be revealed, and the truth about the coronavirus policy is beginning to be revealed. When the destructive concepts collapse one by one, there is nothing left but to tell the experts who led the management of the pandemic – we told you so.

Two years late, you finally realize that a respiratory virus cannot be defeated and that any such attempt is doomed to fail. You do not admit it, because you have admitted almost no mistake in the last two years, but in retrospect it is clear that you have failed miserably in almost all of your actions, and even the media is already having a hard time covering your shame.

Professor Ehud Qimron: “Ministry of Health, it’s time to admit failure” ​

The narrative is shifting. First, little by little, and then all at once. All of the defenses of these impotent interventions (topping that list is masking) are going to be exposed for the pandemic theater that they were. As the good Professor above begins, "the truth will always be revealed".