Premillennialism ignores the tenses in the original Greek in order to sustain its teaching

[sovereigngrace]

Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Do you have the first heaven and first earth (the current heaven and earth) passing away at the second coming of Christ? I ask that because the verse above indicates that the current heaven and earth have to pass away first before the new heaven and new earth are ushered in. If you do believe the current heaven and earth pass away at the second coming, then in what sense do you believe they pass away at that time? And then what about Revelation 21:4 which indicates that there is no more death, pain, crying or sorrow at the time when the NHNE is ushered in? How do you reconcile that verse with your view?

Congratulations on not being the only one who believes that. It doesn't make me think it's any less nonsensical to me just because you're not the only one who believes that, though.

The position makes no sense at all. I mean none whatsoever. In my opinion. There is absolutely nothing anywhere in scripture to suggest that the creating of the new heavens and new earth is a long process. None. Instead, passages like 2 Peter 3:10-13 and Revelation 21:1-4 indicate that the new heavens and new earth are ushered in right after the current heavens and earth pass away.

Congrats on not being the only one to share what I consider to be a false interpretation. Obviously, there are lots of false interpretations of scripture that are shared by more than one person, so just because you're not the only one to believe this is not evidence that your interpretation is correct.

It's not a coincidence at all. But, all this means is that you're not the only one to interpret scripture with a Premil bias. If someone interprets scripture with a Premil bias, as you do, then they're going to tend to interpret a passage like Matthew 25:31-46 a certain way to try to make it fit the Premil doctrine even though it clearly doesn't. It's no surprise that you're not the only one who has done that. It results in denying what I believe to be obvious things such as denying that Matthew 25:41 is a portrayal of the same event described in Revelation 20:15. And it leads to believing in two judgment days which contradicts all the scripture which teaches that there is one judgment day (Acts 17:31, Matthew 12:36, 2 Peter 2:9, 1 John 4:17, etc.).

Do you notice how he dodges around all the basic questions over the years that expose his claims and continues to present his argument as if it is somehow legitimate? I have asked him the question below several times and am yet to get an answer. I wonder why?

Where does Revelation 20 or anywhere in Scripture say the millennium involves a process of regeneration?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Do you notice how he dodges around all the basic questions over the years that expose his claims and continues to present his argument as if it is somehow legitimate?

Yes, I have definitely noticed that.

I have asked him the question below several times and am yet to get an answer. I wonder why?

Where does Revelation 20 or anywhere in Scripture say the millennium involves a process of regeneration?

The answer is nowhere and he knows it, so it's not surprising that he wouldn't want to answer that question.

 

[Timtofly]

Think about it. If he was coming all the way down to the earth, then what is the point of meeting Him "in the air"? Wouldn't we just meet Him on the earth instead if He was coming down to the earth? I would think so.

Because the church is going to Paradise. Those in Paradise meet those from earth in mid air. Then return to Paradise. Jesus comes to the Mt. Of Olives to prevent Jerusalem from being attacked. Then Jesus sits on His throne in judgment of the Nation of Israel. The sheep and goats from all Nations. The Trumpets are the calling of Israel out of the Nations, the final harvest of Israel.

 

[DavidPT]

Does Revelation locate the NHNE at the beginning or end of the millennium?

It does appear to locate it after the millennium. That is the impression the text gives, no doubt. If it was only that easy, that that alone proves it then. There are several OT passages that give the impression, at least to me anyway, that both the millennium and the NHNE are meant. Some of that I tend to find in Isaiah 60, some of it in Isaiah 65, and some of it in Isaiah 66, to name a few places. Almost forgot, Zechariah 14 as well. Can't believe I almost forgot to mention that chapter.

 

[sovereigngrace]

It does appear to locate it after the millennium. That is the impression the text gives, no doubt. If it was only that easy, that that alone proves it then.

Exactly! I rest my case!

There are several OT passages that give the impression, at least to me anyway, that both the millennium and the NHNE are meant. Some of that I tend to find in Isaiah 60, some of it in Isaiah 65, and some of it in Isaiah 66, to name a few places. Almost forgot, Zechariah 14 as well. Can't believe I almost forgot to mention that chapter.

That is because you are fixated with this so-called future thousand and see (and force) it everywhere you look in Scripture. The reality is , it is not mentioned in Isaiah 60, Isaiah 65, Isaiah 66 or Zechariah 14 and you are unable to compare any of these to Revelation 20. That is because you advance a non-corroborated theory.

Now, will you finally stop avoiding a simple question: where does Revelation 20 or anywhere in Scripture say the millennium involves a process of regeneration?

 

[DavidPT]

Exactly! I rest my case!

Even though I agreed it gives that impression, I did argue that other texts in the OT give the impression that both the thousand years and NHNE are meant. Therefore, you are resting your case prematurely in my case.

Now, will you finally stop avoiding a simple question: where does Revelation 20 or anywhere in Scripture say the millennium involves a process of regeneration?

I would think the regeneration involves an era of time. Even Jeffweedaman apparently agrees it does if he has the regeneration beginning 2000 years ago and finishing with the 2nd coming. But he is placing what is recorded in Matthew 19:28, in the wrong era of time. Matthew 25:31 gives us the correct timing of Matthew 19:28.

Assuming Matthew 25:31 is correct in regards to the timing of Matthew 19:28, rather than Jeffweedaman is correct about the timing of Matthew 19:28, and that Jeffweedaman interprets the regeneration as an era of time, why would it not still be an era of time if Matthew 19:28 is meaning post the 2nd coming rather than in this age prior to the 2nd coming? How can one argue, that if the regeneration pertains to this age it involves an era of time, but if it pertains to post the 2nd coming it does not involve an era of time in that case? Regardless that I don't agree with Jeffweedaman about the timing of Matthew 19:28, at least he realizes the regeneration involves an era of time.

 

[Timtofly]

Tell me this. Why would God want to reward a mass group of believers with eternal life in His kingdom and cast a mass group of unbelievers into the fire on two completely separate occasions separated by 1000+ years? Seems pretty inefficient. You like to talk about logic, so tell me where the logic is in that.

Do you think the Lake of Fire is the only place mentioned? What about Death and sheol/hell? That is 3 distinct places. How efficient is that, ask God. John wrote about it in Revelation. Unless you think there has only been a lake of fire since Genesis 1, and sheol and Death are figurative of the lake of fire? Why does God cast the other two places into the lake of fire? Even the sea is a fourth place that is emptied out. You really think God is inefficient? Why create time at all, that does not seem efficient of a God outside of time.

Of course it is not efficient for Amil. It goes against, how do you put it, "your doctrinal bias"?

Those sheep and goats have not physically died, yet. Do you think the word Nation is figurative of another state of death besides the 4 that have already been mentioned? Jesus is sitting in Jerusalem and causing whoever those sheep and goats represent to come out of every Nation and gather in Jerusalem to hear their fate. Is this figurative of the rapture and judgment seat to give rewards to the redeemed church? Not according to my biased doctrine. None of the redeemed are goats. How about not all of Israel are Israel? NOSAS would say of course many redeemed will magically become unredeemed. I don't think so! The rapture and the church already happened and they are enjoying Paradise, not trying to figure out if they are sheep and goats. Last time I checked Scripture, sheep and goats are figurative of Israel. Trumpets are used to call Israel to assembly. Even if they are still scattered among all nations.

People like to travel all over the world. Maybe not all people, but if they don't, then war and civil strife has a way of displacing humanity all over earth. The northern ten tribes have been roaming the whole earth for over 2500 years. Of course they are in every nation. Many probably do not even know who they are because they have blended into every ethnicity.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Even though I agreed it gives that impression, I did argue that other texts in the OT give the impression that both the thousand years and NHNE are meant. Therefore, you are resting your case prematurely in my case.





I would think the regeneration involves an era of time. Even Jeffweeder apparently agrees it does if he has the regeneration beginning 2000 years ago and finishing with the 2nd coming. But he is placing what is recorded in Matthew 19:28, in the wrong era of time. Matthew 25:31 gives us the correct timing of Matthew 19:28.

Assuming Matthew 25:31 is correct in regards to the timing of Matthew 19:28, rather than Jeffweeder is correct about the timing of Matthew 19:28, and that Jeffweeder interprets the regeneration as an era of time, why would it not still be an era of time if Matthew 19:28 is meaning post the 2nd coming rather than in this age prior to the 2nd coming? How can one argue, that if the regeneration pertains to this age it involves an era of time, but if it pertains to post the 2nd coming it does not involve an era of time in that case? Regardless that I don't agree with Jeffweeder about the timing of Matthew 19:28, at least he realizes the regeneration involves an era of time.

This is not evidence. Stop using Jeffweeder as support for your view of a gradual progressive regeneration of the your supposed corrupt future Premil NHNE. He does not believe in that. There is no support anywhere in Scripture for that. Your failure to furnish us with any concrete biblical proof for your claims is damning for your theory. Again, you build another major tenet of Premil on sand.

The regeneration happens with the perfecting of the new earth and the ushering in of eternity.

Regeneration is an act, not a process. It is the same with us. We were not gradually redeemed. We were redeemed (bought back) when we believed.

Where in Revelation 20 is there the slightest hint of a gradual progressive regeneration of the millennial earth? It is simply not there. Premils force that into the text to support their teaching.

 

[DavidPT]

Last time I checked Scripture, sheep and goats are figurative of Israel.

In Matthew 25 what is meant by them are professed servants of Christ, profitable and unprofitable. And the reason all nations are gathered, the logic is simple. That is because when Jesus returns that is where His professed servants will be found, throughout the nations in the earth.

 

[Timtofly]

I've given you scriptures to show the affect that Christ's death and resurrection and the preaching of the gospel have had on Satan, but you lack the discernment to understand what those scriptures mean and how they relate to his binding. I can't help that. And, you're not able to discern that Revelation 20 is figurative language describing a dragon being physically chained in a pit/prison which figuratively represents Satan's binding. But, you think it teaches that Satan will be somehow literally bound with a literal chain that prevents him from doing anything at all.

Because what the Cross did in being a light to people in darkness is more about the people in darkness than about Satan. Pointing out that Job was righteous for a reason, is not a physical act, but a mental act. In fact God pointed out to Satan that fact. That Satan physically caused the trouble Job faced, is also a mental suggestion to third parties, or God was involved in the physical part.

Satan works by convincing people to do his dirty work. Since you claim, he was still allowed to "mentally harasss people" or still convince people to do his bidding, then being bound is literally meaningless.

The darkness was so great in the OT, Satan literally enjoyed the show, his work had already been accomplished.

 

[Timtofly]

Now, will you finally stop avoiding a simple question: where does Revelation 20 or anywhere in Scripture say the millennium involves a process of regeneration?

Wrong question.

"Process of regeneration" is not the same as "the regeneration".

The process of an act would be like post mill who claim the Millennium is about the attitude of humanity keeps getting better and better and then Christ will get to come back.

Even if the Millennium was the door step of the NHNE it does not have to be a process. The Millennium would be the forerunner, like John the Baptist was the forerunner of Christ. John preached regeneration. Christ was the regeneration. Neither taught regeneration was a process. The regeneration is complete at the end of the 70th week. That is what Gabriel told Daniel. If any one is forcing the regeneration process into the Millennium it would be Amil who claim the 70th week finished but still in process evidently, because sin is still ongoing and people still need to be regenerated. It is Amil who declare the Millennium regeneration process has been the last 1991 years.

Pre-mill should declare the process is over at the Second Coming. The church is complete and glorified at the Second Coming. All should agree on that part, at the very least. That many still desire sin to continue in the iron rod reign of Christ so people can be "saved" or "redeemed" is ludicrous. Those resurrected are not resurrected to corruptible sin nature flesh and blood to just continue the sin legacy. That is ludicrous. That people with permanent incorruptible physical bodies cannot have offspring is ludicrous. Were the sons of God created on the 6th day prior to sin unable to multiply and reproduce? How do you think humanity progressed without having offspring?

The advent of sin did not suddenly allow offspring and the after life ended the ability to reproduce. The regeneration is bringing back sinless humanity in permanent incorruptible physical bodies to populate the earth for 1000 years under the iron rod rule of Christ prior to the NHNE. Those people will skip the GWT and live on in this new reality. Only the dead stand before the GWT. Show me one verse explicitly about the GWT that shows judgment passed to living breathing humans?

You all claim there is only one throne and one judgment of the living and dead. But the glorious throne of Christ is not the GWT. Christ does not hand back the kingdom of Paradise to God after the Millennium. The church is handed back at the Second Coming. The church is not the result of the iron rod rule of Christ. Christ hands back the glorious throne set up in physical Jerusalem at the Second Coming, at the end of the 1000 year iron rod rule on earth, and then heaven and earth pass away. But only the dead stand before the GWT.

At the Second Coming Christ hands God the completed and glorified church, ie Paradise to God. It is Paradise where Jesus claims we are like the angels, and procreation is a thing of the past. Paradise is full, thus the New Jerusalem is already full.

Earth on the other hand has no living humans. All of Adam's flesh and blood have been judged and placed in Death, or are about to be resurrected the first time with a physical body. A permanent incorruptible physical body, that can reproduce. The 1000 years is the repopulation after the regeneration is completed. The 7th Trumpet brings an end to Daniel's 70th week. The regeneration is complete. Satan is bound with no way to communicate with humanity. Sin is no more. A sin nature is no more. The earth has been regenerated. Isaiah 65 calls it a new heaven and earth. Not a new reality, just the earth regenerated after the cleansing fire of the Second Coming.

It is ludicrous to think tens of billions of humans are just going to pop up from the ground and defy God after all humanity is just killed off by the Second Coming. There is no central camp of the saints these 10 of billions of humans popping up at any moment before the Second Coming can even currently attack. The church is scattered humanity around the world. Denying a future iron rod rule, where resurrected humans with physical bodies, rule and reign over their offspring, makes no sense.

 

[Timtofly]

In Matthew 25 what is meant by them are professed servants of Christ, profitable and unprofitable. And the reason all nations are gathered, the logic is simple. That is because when Jesus returns that is where His professed servants will be found, throughout the nations in the earth.

How do you get a professed servant from these verses? The sheep had no clue their earthly acts gained them anything. They did not do them in the Lord's name when they did them. Jesus had to remind them after the fact. Besides works of rightness does not make one a redeemed person. No where does it ever claim these people were even willing to be redeemed. They were judged, and then killed. In their case the appointed judgment happened prior to the appointed death. Their eternal home was sealed before they physically died. They became sheep at death. They became goats at death. Prior to that they had not made any choices about their eternity. Christ decided that eternity for them.

Being sheep and goats was only figurative. Tell me how that applied to their state of being since they were not acting out their own ability to act in the Lord's name. Since they had to be reminded, was it feelings that made them do what they did, or the Holy Spirit prompting them? Do you think some were manipulated into being goats, and some into sheep? It seems to me, they were prompted, and when prompted they had a choice.

Those who chose to act on the prompting were rewarded to be a sheep. Those who found something selfish to do instead of that subconscious prompting were rewarded with being a goat. Now tell me that is the same as a redeemed person who struggles against sin to allow the Holy Spirit to guide them? Those sheep and goats never accepted that they were sinners, and confessed their sin. They never acknowledged the Holy Spirit working in their lives. Jesus had to remind them at a judgment seat, where they were about to be sentenced to their eternal destination. They had no clue even what they had done in life, which is works, BTW. No one is redeemed by good works, even if they subconsciously did them. That would be like the uninvited guest finding himself at the wedding without a garment on. They did good works, and snuck into the wedding, but had not garments showing they had been redeemed. I doubt any one is going to be surprised that they were redeemed and had confessed their sins to God. All those sheep were surprised.

You just can't take every verse on sheep in the Bible and state a generic redemption policy. Sheep were associated with a sacrifice under the Law of Moses. But the Law cannot save a person. Sheep were not necessarily redeemed. Sheep is a means of Redemption. Sheep are still under the "going astray" and "lost" condition that the Law affords. Sheep have to be redeemed to be part of the redeemed. Being a sheep does not mean you can loose your salvation. It just means you are a sinner and can break God's Laws.

Remember that Christ was both a Shepherd and A Lamb. But Christ was never a sinner. Sheep start out as sinners, so they can never loose being redeemed. It was already lost when they were born. Being redeemed is a choice. Being lost is not a choice. I doubt one can ever choose to be lost. They would have to have lost all understanding of what that even entails. Then that means God would have to forget His Redemption and rely only on a human's loss of understanding. What Scripture tells us God can reject His own Redemption for us and accept a person who can no longer even decide their own path of action? There are verses that point out if we keep rejecting the Holy Spirit, God can stop offering. But the rejection never allowed one to accept in the first place. You claim one can accept, and then later consciously change their mind. What verse states this ability to accept first then reject? When all verses point to a constant rejection prior to any acceptance. Even the prodigal son returned. Now point to the parable stating a prodigal son never returned?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Because the church is going to Paradise. Those in Paradise meet those from earth in mid air. Then return to Paradise.

What is the point of meeting in the air if everyone was going to Paradise? Why not just meet in Paradise?

Amils are the only ones who have a viable explanation for why we will meet Christ in the air when He comes. And that is because He will be sending fire down upon the entire earth when He comes (2 Peter 3:10-12), so it makes sense that His people need to be taken off of the earth when that happens. And then the judgment occurs after that which won't be in heaven/paradise since heaven and earth pass away before the judgment commences (Rev 20:11-15). After that we will inherit the new heavens and new earth. Scripture never teaches that believers will bodily be taken to heaven/paradise when Christ returns.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Because what the Cross did in being a light to people in darkness is more about the people in darkness than about Satan. Pointing out that Job was righteous for a reason, is not a physical act, but a mental act. In fact God pointed out to Satan that fact. That Satan physically caused the trouble Job faced, is also a mental suggestion to third parties, or God was involved in the physical part.

Huh? That made no sense.

Satan works by convincing people to do his dirty work.

He had a much easier time of doing that in OT times than in NT times since he didn't have to contend with the preaching of the gospel through the power of the Holy Spirit in OT times like he has had to in NT times.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

It does appear to locate it after the millennium. That is the impression the text gives, no doubt.

And, yet, you still can't accept the obvious because you want Premil to be true. You interpret the NT in light of the OT instead of the other way around like you should.

It's interesting how you can be so insistent that everything that is described in Revelation 20 has to follow what is described in Revelation 19 chronologically, but you have no problem with concluding that not everything in Revelation 21-22 follows what is described in Revelation 20 chronologically.

If it was only that easy, that that alone proves it then. There are several OT passages that give the impression, at least to me anyway, that both the millennium and the NHNE are meant. Some of that I tend to find in Isaiah 60, some of it in Isaiah 65, and some of it in Isaiah 66, to name a few places. Almost forgot, Zechariah 14 as well. Can't believe I almost forgot to mention that chapter.

Where is there any mention of the new heavens and new earth in Isaiah 60 or Zechariah 14? You interpret everything with extreme Premil bias. You should try interpreting scripture objectively for once and see what you discover.

If creating the new heavens and new earth is a long process, then please describe that process for me and tell me where it is found in scripture. If it begins when Christ returns and goes on for 1000+ years, it sure seems like the progress of that process must take a huge step back when Satan is loosed after the thousand years end.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

In Matthew 25 what is meant by them are professed servants of Christ, profitable and unprofitable. And the reason all nations are gathered, the logic is simple. That is because when Jesus returns that is where His professed servants will be found, throughout the nations in the earth.

Do you agree that Jesus will return at the end of the age? If so, can you tell me how you interpret the following parable:

Matthew 13:47 “Once again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was let down into the lake and caught all kinds of fish. 48 When it was full, the fishermen pulled it up on the shore. Then they sat down and collected the good fish in baskets, but threw the bad away. 49 This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous 50 and throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Do you think the Lake of Fire is the only place mentioned? What about Death and sheol/hell? That is 3 distinct places. How efficient is that, ask God. John wrote about it in Revelation. Unless you think there has only been a lake of fire since Genesis 1, and sheol and Death are figurative of the lake of fire? Why does God cast the other two places into the lake of fire? Even the sea is a fourth place that is emptied out. You really think God is inefficient? Why create time at all, that does not seem efficient of a God outside of time.

What in the world are you talking about? You rarely make any sense. I believe God is efficient, so it makes no sense to think that He will cast a mass group of unbelievers into the lake of fire on multiple occasions. It makes much more sense that He would do it on one occasion and that is what scripture teaches. Scripture does not teach multiple judgment days as you believe. It teaches that there will be one judgment day.

Acts 17:30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. 31 For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead.”

Those sheep and goats have not physically died, yet. Do you think the word Nation is figurative of another state of death besides the 4 that have already been mentioned? Jesus is sitting in Jerusalem and causing whoever those sheep and goats represent to come out of every Nation and gather in Jerusalem to hear their fate. Is this figurative of the rapture and judgment seat to give rewards to the redeemed church? Not according to my biased doctrine. None of the redeemed are goats. How about not all of Israel are Israel? NOSAS would say of course many redeemed will magically become unredeemed. I don't think so! The rapture and the church already happened and they are enjoying Paradise, not trying to figure out if they are sheep and goats. Last time I checked Scripture, sheep and goats are figurative of Israel. Trumpets are used to call Israel to assembly. Even if they are still scattered among all nations.

This is just incoherent nonsense. I think you are the only one who has any idea of what you're trying to say here.

 

[DavidPT]

How do you get a professed servant from these verses? The sheep had no clue their earthly acts gained them anything. They did not do them in the Lord's name when they did them. Jesus had to remind them after the fact. Besides works of rightness does not make one a redeemed person. No where does it ever claim these people were even willing to be redeemed. They were judged, and then killed. In their case the appointed judgment happened prior to the appointed death. Their eternal home was sealed before they physically died. They became sheep at death. They became goats at death. Prior to that they had not made any choices about their eternity. Christ decided that eternity for them.

One needs to interpret that judgment in light of the verses that preceded it, thus Scripture interpreting Scripture. Starting towards the end of Matthew 24 then continuing in Matthew 25, Jesus was describing two types of professed servants of His, profitable and unprofitable. The sheep do the will of the Father, regardless that they might not fully realize it at all times. IOW, it just comes natural to them. It indicates they are humble not arrogant. They just do what is right, regardless. The goats OTOH are professed servants of Christ, where if a fellow brother and sister had a need, such as needing food, and even though they could meet that need, they sent them on their way instead. A good example would be the following.

James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

How can those meant in verse 16 not be the goats? Can they be meaning the sheep?

Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

Look what verse 45 indicates. Now compare that with James 2:16. How can those meant in verse 16 not be the goats? Can they be meaning the sheep? Who is James addressing in that passage? Is it not the brethren? Doesn't that mean in verse 16, And one of you say unto them, IOW if one of you, the brethren, say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

Would that be something the sheep recorded in Matthew 25 would do? If it isn't, how can that not be what the goats would do then? Don't some of you even think logic counts for anything? How is it logical that if the brethren meant in James 2 are meaning those that profess Christ, and that these recorded in verse 16 are not anything the sheep would do, that this still does not mean they are the goats in Matthew 25 then. If they are not the goats in Matthew 25 they have to be the sheep then, except the sheep don't do things like this. That is a contradiction.

Why are some not interested in what the Scriptures are teaching, but instead seem to be more interested in winning the argument no matter what, that only they can be correct, not the Scriptures themselves? God forbid that the Scriptures be correct if it contradicts what I'm concluding. In the James 2 passage, atheists, for example, are not meant here, the brethren are meant here in regards to how the brethren treat one another over all.

Others can believe what they want. Others can believe they are correct not the Scriptures. Me, I'm sticking with believing and agreeing with the Scriptures. There is no way the goats in Matthew 25 are not meaning unprofitable servants of Christ. Only someone of the OSAS camp might deny that Christ has unprofitable servants, and that their fate in the end is the LOF. Why would any one of the NOSAS camp deny it as well?

 

[sovereigngrace]

I would think the regeneration involves an era of time. Even Jeffweeder apparently agrees it does if he has the regeneration beginning 2000 years ago and finishing with the 2nd coming. But he is placing what is recorded in Matthew 19:28, in the wrong era of time. Matthew 25:31 gives us the correct timing of Matthew 19:28.

Assuming Matthew 25:31 is correct in regards to the timing of Matthew 19:28, rather than Jeffweeder is correct about the timing of Matthew 19:28, and that Jeffweeder interprets the regeneration as an era of time, why would it not still be an era of time if Matthew 19:28 is meaning post the 2nd coming rather than in this age prior to the 2nd coming? How can one argue, that if the regeneration pertains to this age it involves an era of time, but if it pertains to post the 2nd coming it does not involve an era of time in that case? Regardless that I don't agree with Jeffweeder about the timing of Matthew 19:28, at least he realizes the regeneration involves an era of time.

Please remember what you are arguing. It is the opposite to what Jeff is. You are talking about a gradual unfolding perfecting of your future millennium into some type of utopia or age of Aquarius where paradise is restored. But a quick look at the Scriptures presented by you to support your position and reality advanced shows a different picture. The millennium regressively descends into chaos, corruption and the carnality as billions of wicked overrun the millennium. The NHNE are perfect and are marked by incorruption, glorification and righteousness.

You said:

I indicated that it is a process that begins at the 2nd coming, then a thousand years, a little season, and a GWTJ later, the process is fully accomplished. Similar to the 6 days of creation. God didn't do all of that in a snap of the fingers. And by the time He got to the 6th day He had everything prepared for them via what He did the previous 5 days. In a similar way, by the time the GWTJ is finished, God will have the final product, so to speak, fully prepared for them at that point. That's the best analogy I can come up with for the time being in order to somewhat describe what I'm meaning.

You also claimed:

Maybe the solution is, like I have proposed in the past, the NHNE are a process in the beginning, something that doesn't happen in a snap of the fingers. That it takes a thousand years, a little season, and a great white throne judgment to get to the final result of what the NHNE will end up being.

At least I'm not thinking something silly, such as everything can be fulfilled within 24 hours or less once Christ returns, as if everyone present at the GWTJ can stand before God one at a time to give an account of themselves, and that this judgment can be started and finished within the same 24 hours it allegedly begins.

Really? There is nothing sillier than arguing your beliefs from your own head instead of from Scripture. Significantly, you have yet to support your speculations with any hard Scripture.

 

[DavidPT]

Please remember what you are arguing. It is the opposite to what Jeff is. You are talking about a gradual unfolding perfecting of your future millennium into some type of utopia or age of Aquarius where paradise is restored. But a quick look at the Scriptures presented by you to support your position and reality advanced shows a different picture. The millennium regressively descends into chaos, corruption and the carnality as billions of wicked overrun the millennium. The NHNE are perfect and are marked by incorruption, glorification and righteousness.

You said:



You also claimed:



Really? There is nothing sillier than arguing your beliefs from your own head instead of from Scripture. Significantly, you have yet to support your speculations with any hard Scripture.

Maybe one of the problems in my case is that it is not always easy for me to express my thoughts in writing as opposed to if I were expressing them in person with someone face to face? I'm not certain how to express in writing what it means if the NHNE begin with the 2nd coming and that at the beginning of it there are a thousand years, then at the end of that thousand years there is massive death, yet Revelation 21 records the following--And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away(Revelation 21:4)---but then if we compare that with the following in Isaiah 66 also involving the time of the NHNE--- And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me(Isaiah 66:24 )---then compare that with yet another passage involving the NHNE---and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind(Isaiah 65:17)---where it is then obvious that the former is still coming to mind per Isaiah 66:24 if they are doing that during the NHNE---how can this not mean that the NHNE is something that is progressive rather than something that is instantaneous?