When is abortion - homicide, when is murder of a human not homicide?

[BobRyan]

Is abortion homicide depending on who does or does not agree to it - and whether the instrument used is a bullet or not?

Or Is the real issue -- "the value of human life"? -- yes indeed "the value of human life". (not "the convenience" of human life)

So I suppose we can say that a few things are true for this topic:

• - there is a way that murder could always be "safe" for the one doing the murdering...
• - murder could always be "legal" if the law can be created to accommodate it
• - finding two people on Earth in favor of the murder might not be as hard to find as some may have thought.

If we were talking about removing a skin tumor it would be a different story.

Supposedly this topic is sooo very hard to understand -- yet look at how much "clarity" we still have in some parts of this nation regarding the fact that killing the unborn is murder - unless the mother approves.

What we know: Prattville man arrested after double homicide of woman, unborn child

Pregnant Woman’s Death Will Be Prosecuted as Double Homicide: LRPD – Family Council

In this next example the pregnant woman lives but her unborn twins were killed when the woman was shot.

Shooting of pregnant woman in Minneapolis now a double homicide after death of unborn twins

 

[BobRyan]

If the baby does not agree to its murder - then I think killing the baby should be considered murder

 

[Tanj]

So I suppose we can say that a few things are true for this topic:

• - there is a way that murder could always be "safe" for the one doing the murdering...
• - murder could always be "legal" if the law can be created to accommodate it
• - finding two people on Earth in favor of the murder might not be as hard to find as some may have thought.

If we were talking about removing a skin tumor it would be a different story.

Supposedly this topic is sooo very hard to understand

It's not made any easier by your decision to mix and match words and make up definitions of them.

homicide is the killing of a human being.
murder is a legal term for a subset of illegal homicides.

By definition, murder cannot be legal. If it's legal, it's not murder.

yet look at how much "Clarity' we still have in some parts of this nation regarding the fact that killing the unborn is murder - unless the mother approves.

There you go, you are part way to the understanding you choose not to understand. Here's another

If I shoot some guy I don't know walking down the street, that's an example of a homicide which is probably murder. If I shoot the same guy after he broke into my house and tried to kill me, that's a homicide that isn't murder.

Context matters.

 

[chevyontheriver]

If the baby does not agree to its murder - then I think killing the baby should be considered murder

Agreed. I think the baby ought to be able to grow up and then be asked at age 21 whether full consent is given to be aborted. Since that has never yet happened, I think we have lots of innocent non-consenting victims of abortion.

 

[Tanj]

If the baby does not agree to its murder - then I think killing the baby should be considered murder

See, that makes a bit more sense. You want homicide committed on women that have abortions, except these homicides would be committed by the state and termed executions, not murder.

In 2019 there were over 600 000 abortions in the USA. That's 600 000 women you want killed.

 

[BobRyan]

See, that makes a bit more sense. You want homicide committed on women that have abortions, except these homicides would be committed by the state and termed executions, not murder.

That's like saying "you want homicides to be committed against a mass murderers by having them face the death penalty". Or at least "you want homicide committed against a man who walks into a neighborhood and only kills one person - by having that man face the death penalty"

Notice all the real criminal cases listed in the OP regarding this point.

 

[BobRyan]

Like the fetus is saying "yes stick an ice pick in my head please" Pull my arms and legs off please.

Indeed it is hard to find an unborn baby actually signing up for that process.

 

[Tanj]

That's like saying "you want homicides to be committed against a mass murderers by having them face the death penalty". Or at least "you want homicide committed against a man who walks into a neighborhood and only kills one person - by having that man face the death penalty"

Exactly. That's the definition of the word homicide. The killing of a human being, legal or otherwise.

 

[Semper-Fi]

“If men fight, and hurt a woman with child, so that she gives birth prematurely,
yet no harm follows, he shall surely be punished accordingly as the woman’s husband imposes on him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.

But if any harm follows, then you shall give life for life” (Exodus 21:22-23;
New King James Version).

 

[Freth]

It's simple for me. The taking of a life that you have not been given dominion over by God (Genesis 1:26) is a violation of the sixth commandment (Exodus 20:13), and punishable by death (Romans 6:23), unless there is repentance (Luke 5:32).

 

[Basil the Great]

This issue has always been a difficult one for a lot of people, except for those who are 100% against abortions or 100% pro-choice.

 

[BobRyan]

This issue has always been a difficult one for a lot of people, except for those who are 100% against abortions or 100% pro-choice.

Even so - as the OP demonstrates there are folks this year charged with the homicide of killing the unborn.

 

[rturner76]

The unborn haven't been born yet so they are not alive. To be alive you need the breath of life. Though I know it's fun sitting on a high horse. Just don't fall off

 

[IWalkAlone]

The unborn haven't been born yet so they are not alive. To be alive you need the breath of life. Though I know it's fun sitting on a high horse. Just don't fall off

They have a heart beat. Doesnt blood circulate oxygen?

 

[rturner76]

Fetuses don't breathe.

 

[BobRyan]

The unborn haven't been born yet so they are not alive. To be alive you need the breath of life.

1. Are you willing to claim your heart is not alive since it is not outside your body.
2. Should we change all the laws as noted in the OP where someone who kills a pregnant woman's baby against her will is charged with murder ... since in our view "the baby was not alive"?
3. If someone stops breathing for 30 seconds do you then pronounce them "dead" and then "resurrected" when they start up breathing again?

Is this just a "convenient thought" your mind or are you serious?

When a doctor is performing an operation on a live baby in utero - is he view the baby as "dead" the whole time? what if the baby dies during that procedure ?? do you call it "no change in the baby"???

Fetal surgery - Mayo Clinic.

"Fetal surgery is a procedure performed on an unborn baby (fetus) in the uterus (in utero) to help improve the long-term outcome of children with specific birth defects. Because these defects often worsen as a fetus develops, fetal surgery done by a team of experts focuses on treating and improving the conditions before birth.

"Comprehensive health centers that have fetal surgery expertise and experience can treat many birth defects in utero, including:

• Amniotic band syndrome
• Bronchopulmonary sequestration of the lung
• Congenital cystic adenomatoid malformation (CCAM) of the lung
• Congenital diaphragmatic hernia (CDH)
• Congenital high airway obstruction syndrome (CHAOS)
• Fetal anemia
• Lower urinary tract obstruction (LUTO)
• Mediastinal teratoma
• Neck mass
• Sacrococcygeal teratoma (SCT)
• Spina bifida (myelomeningocele)
• Twin anemia-polycythemia sequence (TAPS)
• Twin reversed arterial perfusion (TRAP) sequence
• Twin-twin transfusion syndrome (TTTS)

 

[BobRyan]

Fetuses don't breathe.

Their cells actively participate in respiration, and their organs are all alive - just as they would be outside the womb. The difference is not in relying on oxygenated blood - rather the difference is the source of the oxygenated blood.

 

[rturner76]

1. Are you willing to claim your heart is not alive since it is not outside your body.
2. Should we change all the laws as noted in the OP where someone who kills a pregnant woman's baby against her will is charged with murder ... since in our view "the baby was not alive"?
3. If someone stops breathing for 30 seconds do you then pronounce them "dead" and then "resurrected" when they start up breathing again?

Is this just a "convenient thought" your mind or are you serious?

When a doctor is performing an operation on a live baby in utero - is he view the baby as "dead" the whole time? what if the baby dies during that procedure ?? do you call it "no change in the baby"???

Fetal surgery - Mayo Clinic.

"Fetal surgery is a procedure performed on an unborn baby (fetus) in the uterus (in utero) to help improve the long-term outcome of children with specific birth defects. Because these defects often worsen as a fetus develops, fetal surgery done by a team of experts focuses on treating and improving the conditions before birth.

"Comprehensive health centers that have fetal surgery expertise and experience can treat many birth defects in utero, including:

• Amniotic band syndrome
• Bronchopulmonary sequestration of the lung
• Congenital cystic adenomatoid malformation (CCAM) of the lung
• Congenital diaphragmatic hernia (CDH)
• Congenital high airway obstruction syndrome (CHAOS)
• Fetal anemia
• Lower urinary tract obstruction (LUTO)
• Mediastinal teratoma
• Neck mass
• Sacrococcygeal teratoma (SCT)
• Spina bifida (myelomeningocele)
• Twin anemia-polycythemia sequence (TAPS)
• Twin reversed arterial perfusion (TRAP) sequence
• Twin-twin transfusion syndrome (TTTS)

Not everything with a heartbeat is alive. Look at it like they are in a vegetative state. The person in charge of those decisions can pull the plug whenever they want. A fetus has a heartbeat but it's not fully alive until birth. That's why one is called fetus and one is called a baby.

 

[BobRyan]

They have a heart beat. Doesnt blood circulate oxygen?

first trimester surgical abortions provide for abortions for up to 13 weeks, while second trimester surgical abortions provide for killing the baby up to 26 weeks -- and then there is "Virginia".

Fetal circulation: Circulation of blood in the fetus | Kenhub

"The cardiovascular system develops early in the embryonic stage of development. It starts towards the end of the third week or at the beginning of the fourth week of fetal development.

Once the cardiovascular system is fully established, blood circulation commences and the embryo can directly derive nutrients from its own blood supply."

"Fetal circulation, unlike postnatal circulation, involves the umbilical cord and placental blood vessels which carry fetal blood between the fetus and the placenta. It is usually established in the fetal period of development and is designed to serve prenatal nutritional needs, as well as permit the switch to a neonatal circulatory pattern at birth. Good respiration in the neonate depends on normal circulatory changes occurring at birth (transitional circulation), which results in oxygenation of the blood in the lungs when fetal blood flow through the placenta ceases.

Prenatally, the lungs do not provide gas exchange and the pulmonary vessels are vasoconstricted. Instead, the placenta acts as the gas exchange unit to oxygenate fetal blood."​

 

[BobRyan]

A fetus has a heartbeat but it's not fully alive until birth. That's why one is called fetus and one is called a baby.

Nope that is not the reason one is called fetus and the other is neonate. It is not the idea that the fetus is dead but the neonate is alive as you seem to suggest.