Questions about an idolaterous Pope.

[Thatgirloncfforums]

@chevyontheriver and anyone else,

Can a man not partake of the Eucharist and still be pope? How is he suppose to offer the sacrifice or is partaking not a part of the sacrifice? Also, I understand that sin does not invalid the action of a priest, but in every other case, a priest would be forbidden to offer the Eucharist if he was excommunicated. Right?

 

[chevyontheriver]

@chevyontheriver and anyone else,

Can a man not partake of the Eucharist and still be pope? How is he suppose to offer the sacrifice or is partaking not a part of the sacrifice? Also, I understand that sin does not invalid the action of a priest, but in every other case, a priest would be forbidden to offer the Eucharist if he was excommunicated. Right?

First, the title of this thread deals with a 'heretical' pope. Pope Francis has been confusing and unclear on many occasions. So far he has not been judged guilty of heresy, and is thus not a formal heretic. Even his critics seldom go so far as to call him heretical. We haven't gotten to that point yet. Some things that he has said are wrong, some unwise, many unclear, but we aren't quite there yet in calling pope Francis a heretic. It is imprudent to overstep and refer to him as a heretic. At least at this point. I hope we don't have to go there, but we aren't there yet. So this discussion should be hypothetical.

The Pachamama thing really does appear to have been idolatry. I don't know what else to call it. But an idolater is not a heretic and a heretic is not an idolater. Not necessarily. To be a heretic one must teach false things in a public way. Idolatry and heresy are not equivalent things. Being a heretic and a sinner are also not equivalent things.

 

[BobRyan]

If the mass depends only on Christ and His power alone (As we see in the OP) - then it leaves the door open for the idea that any person could perform the mass.

 

[chevyontheriver]

If the mass depends only on Christ and His power alone (As we see in the OP) - then it leaves the door open for the idea that any person could perform the mass.

Then Jesus chose everybody as apostles instead of twelve. But He chose twelve.

 

[narnia59]

First, the title of this thread deals with a 'heretical' pope. Pope Francis has been confusing and unclear on many occasions. So far he has not been judged guilty of heresy, and is thus not a formal heretic. Even his critics seldom go so far as to call him heretical. We haven't gotten to that point yet. Some things that he has said are wrong, some unwise, many unclear, but we aren't quite there yet in calling pope Francis a heretic. It is imprudent to overstep and refer to him as a heretic. At least at this point. I hope we don't have to go there, but we aren't there yet. So this discussion should be hypothetical.

The Pachamama thing really does appear to have been idolatry. I don't know what else to call it. But an idolater is not a heretic and a heretic is not an idolater. Not necessarily. To be a heretic one must teach false things in a public way. Idolatry and heresy are not equivalent things. Being a heretic and a sinner are also not equivalent things.

If you've not read Tim Staples view of the Pachamama thing, I'd be interested in your thoughts on it.

Pope Francis Commits a Sin of Idolatry with Pachamama? - TimStaples.com

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

Ok. Well, I can't change the title of this thread, so...just pretend it's changed to idolater.

First, the title of this thread deals with a 'heretical' pope. Pope Francis has been confusing and unclear on many occasions. So far he has not been judged guilty of heresy, and is thus not a formal heretic. Even his critics seldom go so far as to call him heretical. We haven't gotten to that point yet. Some things that he has said are wrong, some unwise, many unclear, but we aren't quite there yet in calling pope Francis a heretic. It is imprudent to overstep and refer to him as a heretic. At least at this point. I hope we don't have to go there, but we aren't there yet. So this discussion should be hypothetical.

The Pachamama thing really does appear to have been idolatry. I don't know what else to call it. But an idolater is not a heretic and a heretic is not an idolater. Not necessarily. To be a heretic one must teach false things in a public way. Idolatry and heresy are not equivalent things. Being a heretic and a sinner are also not equivalent things.

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

This has been my position as well. It's difficult to look at some depictions of God and not think, 'Zeus'.

If you've not read Tim Staples view of the Pachamama thing, I'd be interested in your thoughts on it.

Pope Francis Commits a Sin of Idolatry with Pachamama? - TimStaples.com

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

I think what Chevy meant to say is that the priesthood is a Sacrament (grace+physical sign). It's not something the man in the white robe does for himself. Rather, he receives the grace of the priesthood from God, through the laying on of hands and not through his own personal merit or achievement. Also, the priest is suppose to disappear as it were. He stands in persona Christi.

If the mass depends only on Christ and His power alone (As we see in the OP) - then it leaves the door open for the idea that any person could perform the mass.

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

@chevyontheriver

Ok. So who forbids the Pope from saying Mass and why haven't they done so (if he's been judged an idolater)? And should we be participating in papal Masses? I understand that the Masses are still valid, but isn't attending his Masses just encouraging him to continue in his idolatry?

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

@chevyontheriver
Has Pope Francis been judged guilty of idolatry and who makes that judgement and why?

First, the title of this thread deals with a 'heretical' pope. Pope Francis has been confusing and unclear on many occasions. So far he has not been judged guilty of heresy, and is thus not a formal heretic. Even his critics seldom go so far as to call him heretical. We haven't gotten to that point yet. Some things that he has said are wrong, some unwise, many unclear, but we aren't quite there yet in calling pope Francis a heretic. It is imprudent to overstep and refer to him as a heretic. At least at this point. I hope we don't have to go there, but we aren't there yet. So this discussion should be hypothetical.

The Pachamama thing really does appear to have been idolatry. I don't know what else to call it. But an idolater is not a heretic and a heretic is not an idolater. Not necessarily. To be a heretic one must teach false things in a public way. Idolatry and heresy are not equivalent things. Being a heretic and a sinner are also not equivalent things.

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

Compare this depiction of Zeus to the icon in my profile on the left.

If you've not read Tim Staples view of the Pachamama thing, I'd be interested in your thoughts on it.

Pope Francis Commits a Sin of Idolatry with Pachamama? - TimStaples.com

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

Let's say for argument sake that a demon appeared to the people of South America calling itself, 'mother earth'. Are the depictions we see in the Vatican how that demon appeared to people? Are those depictions inspired by demons?

View attachment 308864

Compare this depiction of Zeus to the icon in my profile on the left.

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

Goddess Leto with twins Artemis and Apollo. Reminds me of Mary with Christ and John the Baptist.

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

View attachment 308866

Goddess Leto with twins Artemis and Apollo. Reminds me of Mary with Christ and John the Baptist.

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

Virgin Mary disguised as Buddhist deity Kannon, goddess of mercy

 

[chevyontheriver]

If you've not read Tim Staples view of the Pachamama thing, I'd be interested in your thoughts on it.

Pope Francis Commits a Sin of Idolatry with Pachamama? - TimStaples.com

I think I could have been convinced of Tim Staples' position if the Pachamamas and the planted bowls had not ended up on consecrated altars. And had there not been prostrations to the Pachamama figures. I get inculturation. Cautious inculturation. But some things cannot be inculturated. Moloch doesn't get to be inculturated. Golden calves don't get to be inculturated. Just perhaps what went on in the Vatican wasn't idolatry. But if it walks and talks like a duck maybe it is a duck. I think it was a duck.

“Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen” (1 Jn 5:21).

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

I asked a Ute friend of mine about Pachamama. He has family and friends down that way and will get back to me on whether or not it is an idol.

I think I could have been convinced of Tim Staples' position if the Pachamamas and the planted bowls had not ended up on consecrated altars. And had there not been prostrations to the Pachamama figures. I get inculturation. Cautious inculturation. But some things cannot be inculturated. Moloch doesn't get to be inculturated. Golden calves don't get to be inculturated. Just perhaps what went on in the Vatican wasn't idolatry. But if it walks and talks like a duck maybe it is a duck. I think it was a duck.

“Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen” (1 Jn 5:21).

 

[chevyontheriver]

I asked a Ute friend of mine about Pachamama. He has family and friends down that way and will get back to me on whether or not it is an idol.

What would your 'friend' have in the way of anything objective and beyond just an opinion?

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

What would your 'friend' have in the way of anything objective and beyond just an opinion?

He's Ute (native American) as is his family.

 

[TheWhat?]

@chevyontheriver
Has Pope Francis been judged guilty of idolatry and who makes that judgement and why?

Out of all the videos I've seen, not one was incriminating of Francis. There was some kind of ecumenical gathering in a garden at the Vatican, I suppose, with South American peoples who were a little too South American, culturally speaking, for some of a more traditionalist mindset.

Granted, I don't really get the Vatican in all of these affairs, the emphasis on cultural integration and all of that, but to me it all appeared to be more of an opportunity for shenanigans to find dirt on Francis than anything directly incriminating. Where do you draw the line between culture, and non-christian religion, anyways? There is a lot of blurring of the lines that is possible by both sides in any of these situations.

Then there was the video of the hero who nabbed an image of pachamama which had been apparently placed near the altar of his local parish before throwing them in the Tiber. But, seriously, anybody could have placed it there. I'm not sure that I trust that the Vatican has more incentive to put a pachamama image anywhere near an altar than some guy who wants to become famous for posting a youtube video.

And then, when attempting to read up to get some sense of clarification, all I could find were accusations, handwaving and obscuring of details. My perspective as all of that was unfolding, was that the situation consisted of something like 90% drama.