Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

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Der Alte

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MMXX said:
Considering that follows Jesus saying a simple act of charity will be rewarded with eternal life, who literal is it?
Jesus did NOT say that. Read John 3:15-16.
That could be translated as age long corrective punishment.
I have repeatedly shown conclusively several times that supposed "translation" is NOT possible.
That's originally found in Isaiah 66:24 in regard to Israel being destroyed by Babylon, so it seems possible Jesus repeated it in regard to Israel being destroyed by Rome.
Could be another national judgement against Israel comparable to Ezekiel 22:17-22.
What you assume "seems possible"/"could be" does NOT prove/disprove anything.
How does drowned in water turn into tormented in fiery hell forever?
A punishment worse than death. As I stated in the post. I have a suggestion. I have always found it helpful to actually read a post before trying to respond.
Where is eternal torment in hell mentioned in that verse?
A punishment worse than death. As I stated in the post. See previous reply. When Jesus, who is outside of time, said "Not every one ... shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, depart from me I never knew you." Do you think He meant "It's all good I will know you and let you enter later on?"
Where is eternal torment in hell mentioned in that verse?
A fate worse than death. As I stated in the post.
Where is eternal torment in hell mentioned in that verse?
A fate worse than death. As I stated in the post.
This part is too crammed together and I don't feel like putting it in order right now. Maybe later.
No problem I have grown accustomed to the pitiful excuses folks use to ignore my posts.
 
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Ceallaigh

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Jesus did NOT say that. Read John 3:15-16.

That is what Jesus said. The question is, how literal is all of Matthew 25:31-46?

I have repeatedly shown conclusively several times that supposed "translation" is NOT possible.

And you've been repeatedly shown that it is possible.

What you assume "seems possible"/"could be" does NOT prove/disprove anything.

It's not an assumption. It's a plausible hypothesis. And what you said doesn't refute it.

A punishment worse than death. As I stated in the post. See previous reply. When Jesus, who is outside of time, said "Not every one ... shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, depart from me I never knew you." Do you think He meant "It's all good I will know you and let you enter later on?"

A fate worse than death. As I stated in the post.

A fate worse than death. As I stated in the post.

No problem I have grown accustomed to the pitiful excuses folks use to ignore my posts.

You must be talking about that crammed together convoluted wall of text I said I'd have to put in order to address it. Here's a protip for you, if you want people to read what you have to say, make your posts more legible.
 
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Major1

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Universalism unbiblical? I found otherwise in my KJV.

"...creates a false concept of the nature of God...". Oh? I thought God was love. It is the ECT God who is not love.

"...a direct attack on the gospel of Jesus Christ." It is the bad news of ECT ("You're all sinners and you are going to Hell!") that attacks the gospel of Jesus the Christ, Who boasted that He makes ALL things new.

#1 Of course we are all accountable to God for our sins - that is what the Lake of Fire is for, to burn away our dross, tares, chaff, wood, hay and stubble.

#2 UR is founded on the death and resurrection of Jesus - those events made the salvation of all possible.

#3 God does not tolerate sin, but deals with it in love in the Lake of Fire, a torment at first but it purifies sinners and makes them fit for the Kingdom.

Your whole post is a misunderstanding of UR. Check it out:

we believe the Bible, properly translated

we believe in God...and the Son...and the Holy Spirit

we believe in the complete victory of God over His adversaries, including the last one, Death.

What's not to like?

Indeed God is merciful; God is loving and God is gracious. However God is also just and holy.
This means that God demands justice for sin. God also is so holy such that He cannot ever tolerate sin or turn a blind eye towards sin.
Universalists fall into the deception of believing that God’s love and grace tolerates sin and that ultimately God’s love will override the consequence of sin.

Anyone who has studied Universalism knows that universalism promotes the belief that there are many paths which lead to God and to heaven. Universalism promotes the belief that a person can reconcile with God by his/her own merit and not through Christ alone.

It was God’s love for the world that also sent Jesus to the cross. However, it is only when we believe and accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour that we will have eternal life in heaven with God.

Acts 4:12 says that salvation is found in no one else under heaven except by Jesus Christ.
 
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Major1

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I don't see what that really has to do with what I said above. And just because I explain UR ideas as I understand them, that doesn't mean I have to prove them. However, perhaps I'll give it a shot anyways. Give me some time to see what, if anything, can be worked out.

POst #2524 is the best think I can say t you!
 
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Major1

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Weren't people accountable for their sins throughout the Old Testament, even though there was virtually no mention of hell? And can't hell be awful without it being eternal?



Universal salvation couldn't exist without Christ’s finished work on the cross. The only difference in the UR belief is that Christ's salvation is unlimited.



Hasn't the power of the love of God overridden the consequence of sin for you and I? Then why not the rest of the world that God loves?

Personally I feel I'm much better off being forgiven now, than the idea of having to go through hell before receiving forgiveness. If I totally believed in UR, I wouldn't consider it a safety net. I'd still be just as terrified of hell.

YES they were which was the reason for the animal sacrifices. Their blood was an atonement for man's sins and "covered " the sinner.
Genesis 3:21......
" The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them."

As Romans 3:25 states, the sins committed before the cross are identical to those committed after the cross; that is they all are propitiated in the blood of Jesus. Though God, in His forbearance, passed over the sins committed by Old Testament saints, He did so looking to the cross. At the cross, Christ died once for the sins of the whole world.


The doctrine of unlimited atonement states that Christ died for all people, whether or not they would ever believe in Him.

Scripture, however, stands in opposition to such teaching. But you already knew that! The Bible makes it abundantly clear that many people will be lost, with just a few verses highlighting this fact following:

• “Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt” (Daniel 12:2)
• “Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it” (Matthew 7:13–14)
• “Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness’” (Matthew 7:22–23)
• “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life” (Matthew 25:46)
• “They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might” (2 Thessalonians 1:9)
• “Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire” (Revelation 20:15)
Is the atonement of Christ unlimited? | GotQuestions.org

Since not everyone will be saved, there is one inescapable fact to understand: the atonement of Christ is limited. If it isn’t, then universalism must be true, and yet Scripture clearly teaches that not everyone is going to be saved. So, unless one is a universalist and can defeat the biblical evidence above, then one must hold to some form of limited atonement.
 
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Major1

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Weren't people accountable for their sins throughout the Old Testament, even though there was virtually no mention of hell? And can't hell be awful without it being eternal?



Universal salvation couldn't exist without Christ’s finished work on the cross. The only difference in the UR belief is that Christ's salvation is unlimited.



Hasn't the power of the love of God overridden the consequence of sin for you and I? Then why not the rest of the world that God loves?

Personally I feel I'm much better off being forgiven now, than the idea of having to go through hell before receiving forgiveness. If I totally believed in UR, I wouldn't consider it a safety net. I'd still be just as terrified of hell.

Since the atonement is limited, how is it limited? Jesus’ famous statement in John 3:16 provides the answer:.......
“For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

Right there In this passage, the necessary condition that limits the atonement is found: “whosoever believes” (literally in the Greek: “all the believing ones”).

In other words, the atonement is limited to those who believe and only those who believe.
 
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Hmm

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A fate worse than death.

What sort of crime could we error-prone creatures commit that would deserve a fate worse than death? Have you been reading Anselm and other medieval literature again?
 
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Der Alte

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What sort of crime could we error-prone creatures commit that would deserve a fate worse than death? Have you been reading Anselm and other medieval literature again?
You don't like what Jesus, Himself, said don't talk to me about it. I didn't compose it I only quoted it.
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24
• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12​
Here they are again, perhaps you can show me how they don't refer to a punishment worse than death.
 
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Lazarus Short

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Anyone who has studied Universalism knows that universalism promotes the belief that there are many paths which lead to God and to heaven. Universalism promotes the belief that a person can reconcile with God by his/her own merit and not through Christ alone.

You have been on this thread for how long...? Yet, you still do not know the difference between Unitarian Universalism and Christian Universalism.

"Anyone who has studied..."? Well I have, and advocate no such thing as you insinuate I do. Obviously, you know too little about what you pontificate about. Please study to show yourself approved...
 
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Hmm

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You don't like what Jesus, Himself, said don't talk to me about it. I didn't compose it I only quoted it.

I love what Jesus said but I'm rather less enthusiastic about what you said. I asked you a very simple question comrade Alte: What crime can a fragile and finite being like us commit that deserves an infinite punishment as you insist Scripture says? Do you have an answer (other than saying I don't like what Jesus said) or not? If not, that's fine but why not say so, I'm sure we'll all get over the shock :) If you do, why not share it?
 
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Saint Steven

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In other words, the atonement is limited to those who believe and only those who believe.
No, you are putting limits on the atonement that should not be there.

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world
 
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Der Alte

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I love what Jesus said but I'm rather less enthusiastic about what you said. I asked you a very simple question comrade Alte: What crime can a fragile and finite being like us commit that deserves an infinite punishment as you insist Scripture says? Do you have an answer (other than saying I don't like what Jesus said) or not? If not, that's fine but why not say so, I'm sure we'll all get over the shock :) If you do, why not share it?
First you tell me where does scripture say we finite, imperfect beings get to tell the finite and perfect God what is or is not permissible for God to do?
What sins did the infants and children of Noah's day commit that deserved being drowned. How about the children and infants of Abraham and Lot's day? The children and infants in the Canaanite cities?
 
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Ceallaigh

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You don't like what Jesus, Himself, said don't talk to me about it. I didn't compose it I only quoted it.
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24
• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12​
Here they are again, perhaps you can show me how they don't refer to a punishment worse than death.

The phrase "a fate worse than death" first appeared around 1810, but was popularized by the novel Tarzan of the Apes by Edgar Rice Burroughs, published in 1914: “[The ape] threw her roughly across his broad, hairy shoulders, and leaped back into the trees, bearing Jane Porter away toward a fate a thousand times worse than death".

There are a lot of fates worse that death, which is everyone's fate anyways. Many have chosen death via suicide over experiencing many things. I know of instances where someone chose death over going to jail, even though it wasn't a life sentence.

Regarding most examples you've given, I've asked the same question, which more or less has been "how does that come close to everlasting torment?". And it's a rhetorical question, because of course those examples have fallen way short of being as bad as everlasting torment.
 
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Ceallaigh

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First you tell me where does scripture say we finite, imperfect beings get to tell the finite and perfect God what is or is not permissible for God to do?
What sins did the infants and children of Noah's day commit that deserved being drowned. How about the children and infants of Abraham and Lot's day? The children and infants in the Canaanite cities?

You're deflecting. And like I mentioned in my last post, I'll ask the same rhetorical question I always ask when it comes to these kinds of examples; how does that come close to everlasting torment?

Even though I've asked that several times before, you've declined answering it.
 
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Ceallaigh

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Since the atonement is limited, how is it limited? Jesus’ famous statement in John 3:16 provides the answer:.......
“For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

Right there In this passage, the necessary condition that limits the atonement is found: “whosoever believes” (literally in the Greek: “all the believing ones”).

In other words, the atonement is limited to those who believe and only those who believe.

There's nothing in the premise of UR I know of that goes against John 3:16.

You've come up with lots of verses that don't go against the premise of UR. And in several instances you've used verses that UR proponents use as proof texts to support the doctrine of universal reconciliation. The idea in UR is that once people are exposed to the radiant glory of Jesus, as Paul was, they'll come to repent and believe just as Paul did.

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Ceallaigh

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YES they were which was the reason for the animal sacrifices. Their blood was an atonement for man's sins and "covered " the sinner.
Genesis 3:21......
" The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them."

As Romans 3:25 states, the sins committed before the cross are identical to those committed after the cross; that is they all are propitiated in the blood of Jesus. Though God, in His forbearance, passed over the sins committed by Old Testament saints, He did so looking to the cross. At the cross, Christ died once for the sins of the whole world.


The doctrine of unlimited atonement states that Christ died for all people, whether or not they would ever believe in Him.

That's not what UR teaches. You can't properly argue against something going by false assumptions. The premise of UR is that in going through the trials of hell and also especially when confronted by the radiant glory of Jesus, as Paul was, they will come to believe as Paul did. UR in no way has ever suggested that there will be unbelievers in haven. But rather those who are unbelievers in this age, will become believers in the age to come.

Now I'm not saying that's true or not, but I am saying that's how UR works. If you stay uninformed about how UR works, you're going to keep coming up with invalid arguments.
 
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