Thomas Jefferson statue removed from NY City Hall after 187 years

Should the statue have been removed?

  • Yes

    Votes: 5 33.3%
  • No

    Votes: 10 66.7%

  • Total voters
    15

Aldebaran

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Indeed it is. Back then, Americans didn't deify their leaders.

They did before America was actually founded. People usually wanted to keep their head attached.
 
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Mayflower1

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As long as people don't banish this here, Jefferson's legacy will live on. Banish this, America is gone.

1145312235-jefferson_quote_declaration_border_wallpaper.jpg
 
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iluvatar5150

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lol, what’s the matter? You have to get your history from books now instead of statues installed in places you’ll never visit?

He actually inherited slaves, and was not able to legally free them because that would actually have been against the law at the time.

Was he legally bound to rape them, too?

I thought of that too... Our third president, a founding father, being shackled, and lowered into a wooden crate.

What a different country this is now to what it was then.

Yeah, what kind of country is it where you can’t even rape your slaves anymore?
 
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Aldebaran

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lol, what’s the matter? You have to get your history from books now instead of statues installed in places you’ll never visit?

Even decades ago, it was known that we were heading toward times like we're seeing now.

Was he legally bound to rape them, too?

Irrelevant to anything being discussed here.

Yeah, what kind of country is it where you can’t even rape your slaves anymore?

Try to get back on topic, ok?
 
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iluvatar5150

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Even decades ago, it was known that we were heading toward times like we're seeing now.



Irrelevant to anything being discussed here.



Try to get back on topic, ok?

lol wut? Get back on topic? Part of the beef over Jefferson is that he used to slip Sally Hemings his old Virginia ham.
 
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Aldebaran

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lol wut? Get back on topic? Part of the beef over Jefferson is that he used to slip Sally Hemings his old Virginia ham.

To be fair, who said it wasn't consensual? People nowadays like to assume the worst about anyone who is white. I take it all with a grain of salt since most of it is assumed out of racial hatred of white people---uh, I mean "social justice".
 
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Bradskii

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lol wut? Get back on topic? Part of the beef over Jefferson is that he used to slip Sally Hemings his old Virginia ham.

Are you saying that he shouldn't have been free to treat his property in any way he chose?
 
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iluvatar5150

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To be fair, who said it wasn't consensual? People nowadays like to assume the worst about anyone who is white. I take it all with a grain of salt since most of it is assumed out of racial hatred of white people---uh, I mean "social justice".

Wow… I’ve seen you defend murder. Now you’re adding rape to the list?

He owned her. She wasn’t in a position to consent.

Are you saying that he shouldn't have been free to treat his property in any way he chose?

This is one reason why Libertarians get so agitated with me.
 
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Bradskii

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People nowadays like to assume the worst about anyone who is white.

Regardless of race or colour or nationality, I tend to assume the worst about anyone who keeps a few hundred people as property, regularly inpregnates one of the women and then keeps his own children as slaves.
 
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Thatgirloncfforums

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We're not talking prisoners. We're talking of men, women and children as property.

It depends on what is meant by property.
There is no shame in being the servant of someone else as we are all God's servants as well as freemen, and he calls us to be servants of one another.

No one is self-determined. A king/lord/official is responsible for the people under him and those under him are to honor, respect and obey the king/official and in a sense, are responsible for him too.

A country/territory is a family. If the father is head of the family, why is it controversial that a king/official/lord being a country's father, ask that those in the country (his household) serve and honor him as he serves them? Especially if the people and land are something he himself worked for or inherited.

If a king didn't consider his subjects pastorally, he would have no call to go to war to defend them or provide for them spiritually and physically.

Was Joseph who was set over his brothers as second only to Pharaoh really blessed as second in command or was his position a necessary evil in order to open the grain stores? All the Patriarchs had servants. Job was restored by God giving him back his servants. The Law makes provision for servants who love their masters and even the system of servitude was set up so as to provide for the one serving. Christ is called God's servant, but that doesn't mean he is somehow less than God. The father and king in Christ's parables had servants. Paul tells servants to obey their masters in everything and for masters to treat their servants fairly.

I realize that my argument doesn't account for the exceptionalism that is the America system, but slavery was inherited from Europe.

In some cases, skilled men and women who could have lived their own lives given the chance.

They did live their lives. Nothing is outside the Providence of God. God put them where they were meant to be in order to save their souls and reward them for their good work. If their masters treated them terribly, their masters will answer to God.

As they could have been by Jefferson (see the details of his friend's will in the earlier post). So no, there was no humanity if you're treated as collateral.
What post # is it?

And consider that if you had been Jefferson's slave, you would have been encouraged to 'increase your numbers' to swell his bank balance. Do you see much humanity there?
Why is this a problem? If I lived on a plantation with a good Christian master who loved me in Christ, I would understand that his prosperity is the prosperity of the whole. It's only when the master doesn't share the fruit of common labor with, or is abusive toward those who work, that these sorts of things turn evil.
 
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Aldebaran

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iluvatar5150

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Where did I say it was rape?

You didn’t. You seem to be arguing that it wasn’t rape.

A husband "owns" his wife as well. Does that mean sexual activity is considered rape?

Are you trolling or are you serious?
 
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Bradskii

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It depends on what is meant by property.
There is no shame in being the servant of someone else...

Why do you keep using the term 'servant'? These people weren't working under indentured servitude. They were property. They were owned by Jefferson. And their children became property. And their children became property. Good grief, his children became property. They could be bought and sold. They were no less of a man's wealth than were his cattle.

Why is this a problem? If I lived on a plantation with a good Christian master who loved me in Christ, I would understand that his prosperity is the prosperity of the whole. It's only when the master doesn't share the fruit of common labor with, or is abusive toward those who work, that these sorts of things turn evil.

So you'd have no problem if he demands that you submit to him sexually to produce more wealth. Good grief...
 
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Bradskii

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A husband "owns" his wife as well.

Someone needs to tell you that the scare quotes don't help you there. If you're married, you can try some air quotes using that term with your wife and tell us what happens.
 
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Thatgirloncfforums

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Why do you keep using the term 'servant'? These people weren't working under indentured servitude. They were property. They were owned by Jefferson. And their children became property. And their children became property. Good grief, his children became property. They could be bought and sold. They were no less of a man's wealth than were cattle.
You're stuck on the word property. What is buying and selling--ie purchasing? It is the exchange of one thing for another. Christ purchased us by his blood. A man who pays a dowry is purchasing a wife. Another man who gives grain or money in exchange for a human person in order to save their life, is purchasing that person such as during a kidnapping or in the case of law, where titles are exchanged. Ransom is closely connected to the idea of purchase.

I'm not saying that we should have this system today. That would be evil. But at the same time, do you realize how many ancestors we are condemning by saying that such things are absolutely evil in all cases? As if we today are more advanced spiritually than they.

So you'd have no problem if he demands that you submit to him sexually to produce more wealth. Good grief...
Adultery is an abuse of power.
 
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Hans Blaster

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lol, what’s the matter? You have to get your history from books now instead of statues installed in places you’ll never visit?

If one likes artifacts, one can always see the original in person. I have. It's right next to the godless Constitution.
 
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Hans Blaster

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To be fair, who said it wasn't consensual? People nowadays like to assume the worst about anyone who is white. I take it all with a grain of salt since most of it is assumed out of racial hatred of white people---uh, I mean "social justice".

Perhaps she just reminded him of his dead wife. After all, they were half-sisters.
 
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Bradskii

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I'm not saying that we should have this system today. That would be evil. But at the same time, do you realize how many ancestors we are condemning by saying that such things are absolutely evil in all cases?

We condemn them all. Unequivocably. Slavery is evil. Period. Whether it was deemed acceptable or not at the time is another matter. Whether one treated their slaves well or not is another matter. I would suggest that someone who knew it was wrong yet still did it would be worse than someone who truly felt it was acceptable. That is why I asked upstream if anyone thought that Jefferson thought he knew it was wrong. I'm certain that he did. And he must be condemned because of that.

Adultery is an abuse of power.

It can be. And in this case, considering that she was his property, it undoubtedly was. I'm at least glad we can agree on that.
 
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