Ten Reasons I'm a Sabbatarian [moved thread]

[Albion]

Speaking of Paul, this article explains the basis for Sunday worship very well and includes all the "chapter and verse" citations that many Sabbatarians insist do not exist.

Does the Bible allow Christians to worship on Sunday? | carm.org

 

[klutedavid]

Hi klutedavid,

Perhaps if you were to go to Galatians 5 and read everything in context you'd be less confused by me and more confused by Paul? After all, he's the one who contextualized being "under the law" with embracing "the acts of the flesh."

Galatians 5:16-26
16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.​

Isaiah, in speaking of the coming Messiah wrote that He would "magnify the law, and make it honourable." When one magnifies something does it diminish in size? Or rather, doesn't it enlarge? Yes, it gets bigger. I believe the Ten Commandments are the third level down in a pyramid of God's revelation to humans about His directions for our lives.

Love
God * Neighbor
Ten Commandments
Laws * Decrees * Ordinances​

Love is not left in a vacuum for us to express in whatever manner we arbitrarily choose. God has revealed His directions for how we are to live and has tied our love to Him in how we choose to obey Him or not. So "IF you are being led by the Spirit" you will not be engaging in the "acts of the flesh." Paul lists 15 specific acts which he indicates are in opposition to a Christian who is being "led by the Spirit." This list is not exhaustive, but it does include one of the Ten (i.e. idolatry).

I pray this helps.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

You did not reply to what I wrote.

You proclaim part of the law and not the whole law. Yet you say, "to claim they are not under the law". The deeds of the flesh encompass way more than the ten commandments cover.

For example, these deeds; selfish ambition, drunkenness, and factions, are not even mentioned in the ten commandments. How can you on the one hand talk about these deeds, which are many. Then on the other hand mention the ten commandments?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I just said that.
New covenant and new commandments.

John 3:23-24
This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us. The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him.

John 3:14
We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love abides in death.

You can not tell a lie but that is not an act of love towards the brethren, by any means.

You are given this fruit of the Holy Spirit.

1. love
2. joy
3. peace
4. forbearance
5. kindness
6. goodness,
7. faithfulness
8. gentleness
9. self-control

The commandments of God include the very commandments that God wrote with His own finger. Exodus 20 which are now written in our hearts in the New Covenant. Jer 31:33, Hebrew 8:10 These commandments are eternal Matthew 5:19 so if you want to abide in Him (God) we need to keep the commandments. He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.1 John 2:4

 

[klutedavid]

The commandments of God include the very commandments that God wrote with His own finger. Exodus 20 which are now written in our hearts in the New Covenant. Jer 31:33, Hebrew 8:10 These commandments are eternal Matthew 5:19 so if you want to abide in Him (God) we need to keep the commandments. He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.1 John 2:4

We are under grace and not under the law.

Romans 6:14
For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

Nearly the entire law was not forever and your claiming that some miniscule part of the law is eternal?

The written law became obsolete and so did the old covenant, when the new covenant commenced.

God's Word is eternal and the law of love is also eternal.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

We are under grace and not under the law.

Romans 6:14
For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

You missed some important scripture:

Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?

Grace does not give us a pass to sin freely. We are saved by grace though our faith, but when you have faith you want to obey right? How can you say you have faith, but not have enough faith to obey God’s written Word? John tells us God’s saints have both the faith in Jesus and keep the commandments of God Revelations 14:12

Nearly the entire law was not forever and your claiming that some miniscule part of the law is eternal?

I wouldn’t call God’s written law that God personally wrote and stores the ark of the covenant in the Most Holy of God’s Temple “minuscule” but we have free will. We are told God’s holy laws reflect the very character of God so words like PERFECT, PURE, HOLY, RIGHTEOUS and JUST seems very far from “minuscule”.

The written law became obsolete and so did the old covenant, when the new covenant commenced.

True and God wrote His laws in our hearts in the New Covenant. The Agreement ended i.e Old Covenant not the laws as the scripture plainly tells us Jer 31:33, Hebrews 8:10 God’s law written on the heart and mind in the New Covenanrt.

God's Word is eternal and the law of love is also eternal.

Agree and love is expressed to God when we obey. John 14:15, John 15:10. 1 John 5:3

 

[BobRyan]

It's a huge mistake to think that having received the Holy Spirit makes anyone sinless forevermore or immune to future transgressions against the will of God.

Do you have a quote of someone claiming that "having received the Holy Spirit makes anyone sinless forevermore or immune to future transgressions"??

1 John 3:9
No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

You are quoting the apostle John - is it your claim that John was teaching doctrinal error?

 

[BobRyan]

Bob, Christians are not under the law.

Romans 6:14
For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

klutedavid - Paul says that Christians have the Law written in their heart, and that we "establish the Law" Rom 3:31

 

[klutedavid]

klutedavid - Paul says that Christians have the Law written in their heart, and that we "establish the Law" Rom 3:31

Bob, the LAW written on the heart is not the 613 commands. It was always about the royal law, the law of Christ.

Love was poured into your heart when you received the Holy Spirit, not stone tablets.

Indeed we establish the law because it delivers a portrait of sin. Not because we become holy through trying to be obedient to the law.

A Gentile can never be saddled with the yoke of the law.

We are a new creation in Christ which means we love others now as Christ loved us. The requirement of the entire law is automatically fulfilled by that one command, to love others.

Hebrews 7:18
For, on the one hand, there is a setting aside of a former commandment because of its weakness and uselessness.

Which commandment Bob?

 

[klutedavid]

Do you have a quote of someone claiming that "having received the Holy Spirit makes anyone sinless forevermore or immune to future transgressions"??

1 John 3:9
No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

You are quoting the apostle John - is it your claim that John was teaching doctrinal error?

That's not doctrinal error.

"and he cannot sin, because he is born of God"

You said, "Do you have a quote of someone claiming that "having received the Holy Spirit makes anyone sinless forevermore or immune to future transgressions"??"

"and he cannot sin, because he is born of God"

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Speaking of Paul, this article explains the basis for Sunday worship very well and includes all the "chapter and verse" citations that many Sabbatarians insist do not exist.

Does the Bible allow Christians to worship on Sunday? | carm.org

Interesting, nothing on this website shows where in the bible it tells us the 4th commandment is deleted and God's new day of worship was changed to the first day.

Here is every reference to Sunday in the Bible Sunday in the Bible | Sabbath Truth

1 There is nothing that states the first day was blessed by God, like God blessed the seventh day Scripture reference: Genesis 2:1-3, Exodus 20:8-11
2. Nothing that states the first day is God's holy day, like God clearly tells us about the seventh day. Scripture reference: Isaiah 58:13
3. Nothing that tell us to also keep the seventh day holy like scriptures tell us.
Scripture reference: Exodus 20:8
4. Nothing claiming the first day is the Lords Sabbath day like God clearly claimed about the seventh day Scripture reference: Exodus 20:10, Isaiah 58:13
5. Nothing that says the first day is a day of worship or will be like it says about the seventh day. Scripture reference: Isaiah 66:23
6. Nothing where is shows Jesus went to the Temple reading the word of God as His custom on the first day like it says about the seventh day Scripture reference: Luke 4:16-22
7. Nothing where is shows the disciples preached to both Jews and Gentiles and preached to whole cities on the first day like scriptures tell us about on the seventh day
Scripture reference: Acts 13:42, Acts 13:44, Acts 17:2, Acts 18:4
8. No commandment about Sunday keeping, like there is for Sabbath keeping Scripture reference: Exodus 20:8-11, Luke 23:56
9. No reference that Sunday was sanctified by God, like God sanctified the seventh day Scripture reference: Genesis 2:3

Interesting, it was also predicted in scripture that God's Sabbath day would be changed and certainly not by God. Daniel 7:25 How wonderful it is if you follow the Word of God, scriptures give us clear warnings so we will not be deceived.

If you had such scripture that would contradict all of these posted scriptures I am someone would have posted it by now. Since there is nothing inside scripture but looking outside to traditions that we are warned about by Jesus Matthew 15:3-9 we probably ought to obey God like the disciples also tell us. Acts 5:29

 

[SabbathBlessings]

That's not doctrinal error.

"and he cannot sin, because he is born of God"

You said, "Do you have a quote of someone claiming that "having received the Holy Spirit makes anyone sinless forevermore or immune to future transgressions"??"

"and he cannot sin, because he is born of God"

So you are saying that someone can worship other gods, vain God's holy name, break God's holy Sabbath day or bow down to false images and that is not sin and they are born of God?

 

[HIM]

Speaking of Paul, this article explains the basis for Sunday worship very well and includes all the "chapter and verse" citations that many Sabbatarians insist do not exist.

Does the Bible allow Christians to worship on Sunday? | carm.org

There is not one person here who states these verses do not exist. What they state is that they are ripped out of context or completely misunderstood.

Matt Slick? I would love to meet him. Because he does not know what he is talking about.

 

[klutedavid]

So you are saying that someone can worship other gods, vain God's holy name, break God's holy Sabbath day pr bow down to false images and that is not sin and they are born of God?

That's what Joh said.

"and he cannot sin, because he is born of God"

 

[HIM]

That's what Joh said.

"and he cannot sin, because he is born of God"

So you teach and say John taught that it is ok to worship other gods, kill, commit adultery and what ever if one is a “Christian”?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

That's what Joh said.

"and he cannot sin, because he is born of God"

Than if you are sinning and worshipping other gods, using His holy name is vain, breaking God’s holy Sabbath and bowing to false images, bearing false witness, stealing etc than according to John you are sinning 1 John 3:4 so those who break these commandments must not be born of God.

 

[Albion]

Interesting, nothing on this website shows where in the bible it tells us the 4th commandment is deleted and God's new day of worship was changed to the first day.

New Covenant
New Testament
You know, right?

 

[Albion]

There is not one person here who states these verses do not exist.

Of course that's true. But there are those who talk as though they do not exist. And when confronted with them, then refuse to acknowledge that they mean anything.

Matt Slick? I would love to meet him. Because he does not know what he is talking about.

I have no fondness for Matt Slick. However, that webpage did list a number of relevant Bible verses for the folks who are always replying to me saying "What verses? Where?"

And the presentation of the case for Sunday worship was made effectively, regardless of who put together the presentation.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

New Covenant
New Testament
You know, right?

Yes we are in the New Covenant, which God writes His laws in our hearts and minds Jer 31:33, Hebrews 8:10. Sunday keeping is not a law in the Old Covenant or New Covenant. Nothing in the New Covenant changed the day of worship from God's holy seventh day Sabbath to the first day otherwise you would have posted some scripture to support your case by now. It should be easy enough if it was there, but we both know its not. We are not the ones you need to convince though and God already spoke and it is on His authority to choose the day we are to keep holy, so your argument is not really with us.

 

[Icyspark]

That's not doctrinal error.

"and he cannot sin, because he is born of God"

You said, "Do you have a quote of someone claiming that "having received the Holy Spirit makes anyone sinless forevermore or immune to future transgressions"??"

"and he cannot sin, because he is born of God"

Hi klutedavid,

How 'bout we add a little context:

1 John 3
4 Everyone who sins is breaking God’s law, for all sin is contrary to the law of God. 5 And you know that Jesus came to take away our sins, and there is no sin in him. 6 Anyone who continues to live in him will not sin. But anyone who keeps on sinning does not know him or understand who he is.

7 Dear children, don’t let anyone deceive you about this: When people do what is right, it shows that they are righteous, even as Christ is righteous. 8 But when people keep on sinning, it shows that they belong to the devil, who has been sinning since the beginning. But the Son of God came to destroy the works of the devil. 9 Those who have been born into God’s family do not make a practice of sinning, because God’s life is in them. So they can’t keep on sinning, because they are children of God. 10 So now we can tell who are children of God and who are children of the devil. Anyone who does not live righteously and does not love other believers does not belong to God.
​

As I perceive this passage, those who continue "to live in Him" won't sin. And according to verse 4 sin "is breaking God's law." Sin is not a nebulous term left for individuals to fill in the blank to define for themselves. So how do you know if you are living "in Him"? Would not the evidence of "breaking God's law" reveal that one is not in fact living "in Him"?

If a Christian "continues to live in Him" they will not transgress "God's law." They "do not make a practice of sinning" (plural and implied ongoing sinning) because God's life is in them." In other words, if God is in you then the devil is not. If the devil is in you, then God is not. The two are incompatible and cannot dwell in the same space.

Paul admonishes Christians to "Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you—unless, of course, you fail the test?" Unless, of course, you FAIL THE TEST. Paul indicates that Christians should do a self exam to see if Christ Jesus is in them. There is no guarantee that this exam will confirm that Christ is in you. It is a sobering reality that one can indeed "fail the test."

On what basis do you suppose you should determine whether Christ Jesus is in you?

I pray this helps.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

 

[Icyspark]

New Covenant
New Testament
You know, right?

Hi Albion,

If you have something specific in mind I'd imagine you'd be more than willing to share. You comment on all sorts of other random things, yet when it comes to providing the biblical "authorization" you insist you have for why you invest Sunday with veneration you refuse to supply any text(s) to validate your claim. You assert it's because we Sabbatarians will just outright reject your text(s), but I'm surmising you likely see the weakness of your position and realize anything you post won't hold up under scrutiny.

SabbathBlessings supplied a link to a website which examined the eight New Testament references to the first day of the week. None of those texts do anything to authorize a change from Sabbath (note continued use of venerated title) to observing the first day of the week (note continued use of title in reference to Sabbath).

God bless.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark