Did Jesus save us from God?

Clare73

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But what about:
Rom 2:8
But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath
which I think could easily say passion. How can you obey anger / wrath? Who can obey / follow passions
Good question!

In the context of Romans 2:7-8, the Greek reads:
7: "to the (ones) on one hand seeking by endurance of (in) good work glory and honor and incorruption eternal life;
8: to the (ones) on the other of self-seeking and disobeying the truth but obeying unrighteousness, wrath and anger."

Grammatically, Romans 2:7-8 means:
"To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking, and who reject the truth and follow evil, (there will be) wrath and anger."

Does that help?
 
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Saint Steven

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... How can you obey anger / wrath? Who can obey / follow passions
Like this...

Genesis 4:7 NIV
If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.”

James 1:14-15 NIV
but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed. 15 Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.
 
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Clare73

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Analogy, if you create a dog that can bite and kill, and it bites and kills, you must die also.

Christ/God did not die to save us from Himself, He died to save us from our self.
God (Jesus Christ) died to save us from the wrath of God (himself). Romans 5:9
 
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misput

JimD
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God (Jesus Christ) died to save us from the wrath of God (himself). Romans 5:9
I believe there is a sense in which God lives in every living thing. We humans have the ability to accept Him and live or reject Him too our own destruction. We can correctly speak of it as Gods wrath but actually it is our own wrath that destroys us.
 
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Clare73

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I believe there is a sense in which God lives in every living thing. We humans have the ability to accept Him and live or reject Him too our own destruction. We can
correctly speak of it as Gods wrath but actually it is our own wrath that destroys us.
"We" don't speak of it as "God's wrath," the word of God does, and it is not ours to alter it
(1 Corinthians 4:6).

Why the need to wrestle the Scriptures (2 Peter 3:16)?
.
 
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Bruce Leiter

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"Did Jesus save us from God?" seems to be a common question/saying among those who believe in universal salvation.

But Romans 5:9 seems to indicate that's exactly what happened:

"Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him"
(1) Jesus is fully God and human. You're asking if Jesus saved us from himself?
(2) God the first Person sent God the second Person in the power of God the third Person as the one true God to satisfy his own just verdict of guilty against humanity's rebellion.
(3) Why would you ask that question?
 
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misput

JimD
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"We" don't speak of it as "God's wrath," the word of God does, and it is not ours to alter it
(1 Corinthians 4:6).

Why the need to wrestle the Scriptures (2 Peter 3:16)?
.
Because they are spiritual and not meant to be consumed as milk or read like a first grade text book our whole life.
 
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Clare73

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Clare73 said:
"We" don't speak of it as "God's wrath," the word of God does, and it is not ours to alter it (1 Corinthians 4:6).

Why the need to wrestle the Scriptures (2 Peter 3:16)?
Because they are spiritual and not meant to be consumed as milk or read like a first grade text book our whole life.
It's not about being "consumed as milk" (more futzing with the written word).

"Milk" is not about how God's word is consumed, "milk" is about what of God's word is consumed' i.e., "milk" being the "elementary truths" of God's word (Hebrews 5:12)--repentance, faith in God, baptism, laying on of hands, the resurrection, eternal judgment (Hebrews 6:1-2)--not how God's word is to be "consumed," and
"milk" being in contrast to "meat" (solid food) of God's word, which in this case is "the teaching about righteousness." (Hebrews 5:13-14).

Where do we find in Scripture that Scripture is not to be taken at its word?

What we do find in Scripture is that they are the truth written, beyond which we are not to go
(1 Corinthians 4:6), as is being done here.

Do you really think your "spiritual" presentation above is an improvement on the truth of the plain words themselves there?

You usually do better than that. . .
 
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... Why would you ask that question?
It seems to be the claim of those who believe in a forever burning hell. (though they likely won't admit it)

Let me rephrase the question to see if you might agree, or disagree.

Did Jesus die to save us from the wrath of God?

If so, isn't there a more obvious solution to this problem?

Children with temper tantrums are put in a corner until they can work it out. (control their temper) We don't allow them to incinerate their siblings.

Did Jesus die to save us from the wrath of God?
 
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Andrewn

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in the power of God the third Person
The 2nd Person didn't have enough power? He's not omnipotent in your view?

to satisfy his own just verdict of guilty against humanity's rebellion.
The 1st Person could not be Good enough to forgive His enemies without having the 2nd person killed to get the 1st Person satisfied? Does God ask from us to live to higher standard than His own standard of goodness?

bible-verses-forgiveness-5-1586365233.jpg
 
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Clare73

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It seems to be the claim of those who believe in a forever burning hell. (though they likely won't admit it)

Let me rephrase the question to see if you might agree, or disagree.

Did Jesus die to save us from the wrath of God?
I couldn't have stated the glory of the gospel any better myself!

That God himself (Jesus Christ) would suffer the penalty of his own just wrath on our sin in our place that he might have fellowship with those who be
lieve in their Savior!

Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace to those who are reconciled to him through faith in their Savior, and the enmity set aside! (Romans 5:9-10)
If so, isn't there a more obvious solution to this problem?

Children with temper tantrums are put in a corner until they can work it out. (control their temper) We don't allow them to incinerate their siblings.
Children?

Is that what we do with adult children in our own justice system for criminals who violate the law?

Would you like to rewrite those laws also. . .so that we just stand murderers in the corner until they can work it out?

It's not complicated. . .
.
 
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Clare73

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The 2nd Person didn't have enough power? He's not omnipotent in your view?

The 1st Person could not be Good enough to forgive His enemies without having the 2nd person killed to get the 1st Person satisfied? Does God ask from us to live to higher standard than His own standard of goodness?
You don't believe the gospel?

God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement (payment of the penalty for sin, as the OT "trespass" animal sacrifices were the payment of the penalty for sin of the Israelite; i.e, death in place of the sinner--
Leviticus 5:6-7, 15, 6:6, 26:41-43) through faith in his blood. (Romans 3:25)
 
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Clare73

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That is the problem, a literalist does not have a clue.
Circular. . .

And if you did, would you not answer my question specifically. . .as well as address the Scriptures presented?
 
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Circular. . .

And if you did, would you not answer my question specifically. . .as well as address the Scriptures presented?
Sorry Clare, I am unable to put into written words what I think and besides I may be wrong but I assure you most scripture is not meant to be understood literally like a child's textbook. It's usually much deeper than that. Like Paul Harvey used to say, "and that's the rest of the story, good day" : )
 
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Clare73

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Sorry Clare, I am unable to put into written words what I think and besides I may be wrong but I assure you most scripture is not meant to be understood literally like a child's textbook. It's usually much deeper than that. Like Paul Harvey used to say, "and that's the rest of the story, good day" : )
No problem. . .I understand. . .I know your good track record here.
 
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Children?

Is that what we do with adult children in our own justice system for criminals who violate the law?

Would you like to rewrite those laws also. . .so that we just stand murderers in the corner until they can work it out?

It's not complicated. . .

God's justice system must be better than man's, correct?

If so, then how Clare, pray tell, does the punishment fit the crime in ECT, where it's (a) a 'one size fits all' and (b) infinitely excessive to the sins committed?

It's like a judge sentencing everyone from murderer to candy-pilferer to the electric chair.

Justice is served!
 
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