Is God out to get us?

[Bruce Leiter]

I suppose many would say, "Yes, God is out to get us."
But what do they mean by "get us"?

Do they mean that God is watching for any slip up, so that he might punish us?
Or is God looking out for our best interest, that he might have us as his own?
Thus pursuing a positive relationship with his creation.

Many would combine these two aspects and claim a balanced view of "God's love and justice". The idea that he wants to have a positive relationship with us, but since we are "completely unworthy", he has no choice but to punish us. Thus blaming the victim for divine alienation and punishment. As if we should be accountable for the way in which he created us. Plan B treatment, since we messed up his plan A. Didn't see that one coming. Now what?

No, I don't believe God's original plan has been derailed by humankind, which he created in his own image. On the contrary. The intent is that all things will be restored. This story ends well.

Romans 8:20-21
For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

If we are true believers in the God of the Bible through faith by grace, God has already justified us so that God our Judge has declared, according to Paul in Romans 3 and following, that true believers are not-guilty for all our sins.

However, as our loving heavenly Father, he guides our lives to overcome our old-nature qualities and actions and replaces them with new-nature characteristics.

On the other hand, the sinful nature that remains within us often resists his work of change. Like any good father, our perfect Father disciplines us lovingly when we rebel by deciding to act according to our old nature. That discipline is his tough love completely for our benefit.

For unbelievers, God uses their suffering, which he allows but doesn't cause, to call them to repentance.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Pharaoh had the hardening of the heart (Rom 9:17-18), but why? For God hath shut up all unto disobedience, that he might have mercy upon all. (Rom 11:32). Jesus has the keys Clare, and holds the seven stars in his hand.

It's the relentless and unstoppable love of the Hound of Heaven. Don't be barking up the wrong tree with ECT.

If God hath shut up all unto disobedience, how do they choose him? His mercy is in that those he chose are changed from disobedience to faith. Born Again.

"For God hath shut up all unto disobedience, that he might have mercy upon all" is no statement for Universalism. It is a statement for the need of all for his mercy, the inability of anyone at all to obtain mercy on their own.

 

[Mark Quayle]

If we are true believers in the God of the Bible through faith by grace, God has already justified us so that God our Judge has declared, according to Paul in Romans 3 and following, that true believers are not-guilty for all our sins.

However, as our loving heavenly Father, he guides our lives to overcome our old-nature qualities and actions and replaces them with new-nature characteristics.

On the other hand, the sinful nature that remains within us often resists his work of change. Like any good father, our perfect Father disciplines us lovingly when we rebel by deciding to act according to our old nature. That discipline is his tough love completely for our benefit.

For unbelievers, God uses their suffering, which he allows but doesn't cause, to call them to repentance.

So there are things made that are not made by the Word of God?

Why do we have to come up with these constructions to relieve God of the responsibility for which he never asked for relief?

God most definitely DOES cause suffering. There is suffering, and he is the Creator, First Cause.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Gentlemen don't incinerate you for snubbing them.

God is no gentleman. He is not tame. He is not safe, concerning those who do wrong. *edit

But he is good. He is patient, and longsuffering. He is kind.

But he is just. Precisely and thoroughly.

 

[Saint Steven]

God is no gentleman. He is not tame. He is not safe, concerning whom to do wrong.

But he is good. He is patient, and longsuffering. He is kind.

But he is just. Precisely and thoroughly.

Sounds like C. S. Lewis' Aslan.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

What kind of juice is that pesky little situation of God having a will for Pharaoh other than the one he revealed to Pharaoh.

Lol maybe the one He revealed to Paul?

 

[Shrewd Manager]

If God hath shut up all unto disobedience, how do they choose him? His mercy is in that those he chose are changed from disobedience to faith. Born Again.

"For God hath shut up all unto disobedience, that he might have mercy upon all" is no statement for Universalism. It is a statement for the need of all for his mercy, the inability of anyone at all to obtain mercy on their own.

I'm not sure why you'd want to jump off the camel when he's homeward bound. It's a statement of God having mercy upon all who need it, namely all, ta panta. Jesus holds the keys to death and Hades so he can jailbreak everyone. It's in the mission statement '...free the prisoners, liberate the captives...' and it occurs en masse around Rev 20:14.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Sounds like C. S. Lewis' Aslan.

Need a fire alarm in the wardrobe?

 

[Mark Quayle]

I'm not sure why you'd want to jump off the camel when he's homeward bound. It's a statement of God having mercy upon all who need it, namely all, ta panta. Jesus holds the keys to death and Hades so he can jailbreak everyone. It's in the mission statement '...free the prisoners, liberate the captives...' and it occurs en masse around Rev 20:14.

15 "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

 

[Shrewd Manager]

15 "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

 

[Saint Steven]

15 "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

Some need a shower, and some need a bath.

Mark 9:49
Everyone will be salted with fire.

 

[Clare73]

Lol maybe the one He revealed to Paul?

Non-responsive to juice question. . .

 

[Clare73]

Intelligent. . .

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Non-responsive to juice question. . .

Perhaps if you could rephrase the question? Sorry I'm not so good with Swahili.

 

[Clare73]

Perhaps if you could rephrase the question? Sorry I'm not so good with Swahili.

See post #300.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

See post #300.

You asked the following question Clare:

What kind of juice is that pesky little situation of God having a will for Pharaoh other than the one he revealed to Pharaoh.

Is this some kind of code language joke? Ok, I give up - what kind of pesky little situation juice is it?

 

[Clare73]

You asked the following question Clare:

"What kind of juice is that pesky little situation of God having a will for Pharaoh other than the one he revealed to Pharaoh."

Is this some kind of code language joke?

I give up. . .is it?

"Straight juice" and "delinquent misinterpretation" are your nomenclature (post #297), not mine.

Ok, I give up - what kind of pesky little situation juice is it?

 

[Shrewd Manager]

I give up. . .is it?

"Straight juice" and "delinquent misinterpretation" are your nomenclature (post #297), not mine.

So are you saying the 'pesky little situation' that occurred when God hardened Pharaoh's heart in Exodus 9:12 is revealed through Paul in Romans 11:32 as the 'straight juice' of His plan of mercy upon all? If so, we are essentially in accord.

 

[Clare73]

So are you saying the 'pesky little situation' that occurred when God hardened Pharaoh's heart in Exodus 9:12 is revealed through Paul in Romans 11:32 as the 'straight juice' of His plan of mercy upon all? If so, we are essentially in accord.

Nope. . .not what I am saying.

It relates to your Biblical assertion in post #297 regarding God's (revealed) will.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Nope. . .not what I am saying.

It relates to your Biblical assertion in post #297 regarding God's (revealed) will.

God's will seems to be that we go around in circles on this issue Clare. And that may be true, emulating the Great Circle - the exitus et reditus of Aquinas, the fall and resurrection of the Last Adam in Christ. The loss and recovery of the nations, the eventual renewal of all creation in the Eschaton.