For The Orthodox Faithful Who Are Confused About Covid Vaccines: Orthodox Talks

[rusmeister]

I guess anything can happen but I would think these things are not the norm...

I think it depends on what you understand by "defiling", and I think a true answer would recognize that unless what is being done could result in procreation, infertility and age being given, it is likely defilement, and also that unless that is the line, there is nowhere a line can be drawn, as man has a tendency to fall, and fall, and fall, and he will constantly redraw his lines.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I guess anything can happen but I would think these things are not the norm...

probably not the norm but also not unheard of. and it shows that not everything a married couple does to have a baby should be done.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

I think it depends on what you understand by "defiling", and I think a true answer would recognize that unless what is being done could result in procreation, infertility and age being given, it is likely defilement, and also that unless that is the line, there is nowhere a line can be drawn, as man has a tendency to fall, and fall, and fall, and he will constantly redraw his lines.

Maybe I am not understanding you completely, in this case, a husband and wife, is doing it for procreation...maybe because of infertility?

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

probably not the norm but also not unheard of. and it shows that not everything a married couple does to have a baby should be done.

Agreed, but we were discussing IVF for married couples and it has morphed into this...

 

[ArmyMatt]

Agreed, but we were discussing IVF for married couples and it has morphed into this...

correct, because the point is that even married couples can do things that are not right, even for noble reasons.

you were the one who asked.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

correct, because the point is that even married couples can do things that are not right, even for noble reasons.

you were the one who asked.

But again, it can and probably does happen, but I don't think it is the norm, especially for trying to have kids...but yeah, I did ask

 

[ArmyMatt]

But again, it can and probably does happen, but I don't think it is the norm, especially for trying to have kids...but yeah, I did ask

and IVF isn’t the norm either

 

[rusmeister]

I'll make one last effort to spell it out - there are two things you seem almost unwilling to get - one, is that IVF is an effort to play God. It is not merely an operation to restore healthy function; it is an effort to get around the failure of the function. Now the difference I see between other artificial interventions and this is that most are meant to maintain existing life; IVF aims at creating new life at human will in a manner that is not natural. The second is that the things that have to be done generally violate our teachings in one way or another, masturbation being a prime but not exclusive example. Finally, IVF is usually conducted by people not interested in submitting to the teachings of the Church, and other immoral actions and situations arise as a result of doing it in the first place.
Maybe you think it is not playing God to form a child at will involving third parties, maybe you think things like masturbation are not immoral. I could only say that you are wrong in that case. If you can't see that the unnatural manner makes it possible and probable for all manner of evil to be done (even though a given married couple may intend no such thing), for children to be formed with and raised by, say, three female "parents", and that if the thing were not permitted at all, those evils would be illegal by definition, then I don't know what I could say to spell it out further to you. Because we WANT children at any cost, we let these evils into the world. We would assuage our grief at not being able to have children of our own body, and understandably ask if science can help us, but the result is who knows how many children are born into circumstances of evil by choice? (Very unlike the Leftist arguments against bearing children in unfavorable natural circumstances). That a small number of parents might have good and generally godly intentions is irrelevant, and it leaves out the "playing God" factor.

 

[All4Christ]

and IVF isn’t the norm either

It’s one of the many struggles many have today knowing that our deep desires, often good desires, can be “solved” by modern treatments, yet knowing that we cannot in good conscious take advantage of it.

It’d be so easy to follow the pattern so many other Christian denominations follow (Catholics being an exception). I can’t even fully participate in generic Christian infertility groups, as IVF is still the standard for most of them. Following the easy path isn’t the norm though in a Christian life.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

To whom are you addressing this post, Rus?

I'll make one last effort to spell it out - there are two things you seem almost unwilling to get - one, is that IVF is an effort to play God. It is not merely an operation to restore healthy function; it is an effort to get around the failure of the function. Now the difference I see between other artificial interventions and this is that most are meant to maintain existing life; IVF aims at creating new life at human will in a manner that is not natural. The second is that the things that have to be done generally violate our teachings in one way or another, masturbation being a prime but not exclusive example. Finally, IVF is usually conducted by people not interested in submitting to the teachings of the Church, and other immoral actions and situations arise as a result of doing it in the first place.
Maybe you think it is not playing God to form a child at will involving third parties, maybe you think things like masturbation are not immoral. I could only say that you are wrong in that case. If you can't see that the unnatural manner makes it possible and probable for all manner of evil to be done (even though a given married couple may intend no such thing), for children to be formed with and raised by, say, three female "parents", and that if the thing were not permitted at all, those evils would be illegal by definition, then I don't know what I could say to spell it out further to you. Because we WANT children at any cost, we let these evils into the world. We would assuage our grief at not being able to have children of our own body, and understandably ask if science can help us, but the result is who knows how many children are born into circumstances of evil by choice? (Very unlike the Leftist arguments against bearing children in unfavorable natural circumstances). That a small number of parents might have good and generally godly intentions is irrelevant, and it leaves out the "playing God" factor.

 

[rusmeister]

To whom are you addressing this post, Rus?

Well, the most recent interchanges have been with Yeshua. Thought it was obvious. Sorry if it wasn't.

 

[ArmyMatt]

It’s one of the many struggles many have today knowing that our deep desires, often good desires, can be “solved” by modern treatments, yet knowing that we cannot in good conscious take advantage of it.

It’d be so easy to follow the pattern so many other Christian denominations follow (Catholics being an exception). I can’t even fully participate in generic Christian infertility groups, as IVF is still the standard for most of them. Following the easy path isn’t the norm though in a Christian life.

correct. life would be much easier if we followed the ways of the world.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

IVF is usually conducted by people not interested in submitting to the teachings of the Church, and other immoral actions and situations arise as a result of doing it in the first place.
Maybe you think it is not playing God to form a child at will involving third parties, maybe you think things like masturbation are not immoral. I could only say that you are wrong in that case. If you can't see that the unnatural manner makes it possible and probable for all manner of evil to be done (even though a given married couple may intend no such thing), for children to be formed with and raised by, say, three female "parents", and that if the thing were not permitted at all, those evils would be illegal by definition, then I don't know what I could say to spell it out further to you. Because we WANT children at any cost, we let these evils into the world. We would assuage our grief at not being able to have children of our own body, and understandably ask if science can help us, but the result is who knows how many children are born into circumstances of evil by choice? (Very unlike the Leftist arguments against bearing children in unfavorable natural circumstances). That a small number of parents might have good and generally godly intentions is irrelevant, and it leaves out the "playing God" factor.

Well that was why I asked the question because I have known multiple couples that used IVF, got children and those children were baptized all under approval of different priests. Should they not have known what you say? Should those priests be defrocked?? You all keep adding things that I never said...no I don't agree with having 3 female parents, etc...I ONLY asked regarding a married man and wife couple...jeez! But yes, anything can be used for evil, even "religion". Sure the IVF child could be going into a terrible situation of some sort but the same can happen to "natural" children. In that case, since it "could" happen, maybe no one should have children...just in case...?

 

[rusmeister]

Well that was why I asked the question because I have known multiple couples that used IVF, got children and those children were baptized all under approval of different priests. Should they not have known what you say? Should those priests be defrocked?? You all keep adding things that I never said...no I don't agree with having 3 female parents, etc...I ONLY asked regarding a married man and wife couple...jeez! But yes, anything can be used for evil, even "religion". Sure the IVF child could be going into a terrible situation of some sort but the same can happen to "natural" children. In that case, since it "could" happen, maybe no one should have children...just in case...?

I apologize for any misunderstandings. I was NOT saying that you approve of the evil situations that arise! Nor do I say that you have said everything that I am referring to.

The difference I am trying to outline to you between all other evil uses of good things is that IVF is fundamentally not a good thing to begin with, and the reason for that is that it is the willful creation of human life by unnatural means. The priests who suggested it were mistaken. They knew not what they did. There are many people who go into it with good intentions. But not all good intentions are good to enact, and the road to hell is paved with them. If it has been done, then we must love and care for the children so created. But that doesn't make the process of such creation good.

I'm not trying to suggest that Orthodox people of good will are guilty of evil intent. I am saying only that tremendous evil results from the very existence of the practice, and that most of us came into the Church with bad ideas that we think are good.

 

[Andrei D]

This touches on a broader problem - whether the Church can have one mind in relationship with new realities and even old realities that are brought to the forefront. It is very problematic especially when trying to evangelize or even raise young people in the faith. I'm sorry for the rant, just airing out some issues I've been struggling with in the past couple of years.

The Orthodox Church seem to have few or no authoritative answers to real life. There is a rich heritage of teaching that is derived from and applicable to monastic life, but do we have a universal source of guidance for day-to-day struggles? Sure, you can point to one hierarch or another, to one theology book or another and to what an Elder once said - but I'm wondering about answers from the Church, in consensus. It slowly turns into a Protestant paradigm where hyperlocal and individual interpretation of canons and Church Fathers dominates. Just look at this thread: everyone says "I know the true truth, forget the bishops". Looks like a discussion among non-denoms.

On the one hand, you have Patriarch Bartholomew (praying for his health and recovery) who isn't very sure that abortion is wrong, on the other you have spiritual fathers who teach using the calendar method is a deadly sin. And an ever expanding "pastoral discretion" and definition of economia. Which, in effect, means an ever shrinking episcopal guidance.

Soon, we'll have to grapple with more and more complex realities as science and technology advance. What will the Church do? For me, the most depressing illustration is the COVID precedent - where (most) bishops defaulted to shrinking the Church's domain rather than leading, and that with no resistance: "medicine is not a spiritual matter". Once they did that, there is a big risk that the Church will keep withdrawing into irrelevance. As of now, the message is: "For all non-spiritual matters, please ask the appropriate authorities. Not our business". I believe the default should be the opposite: "everything is spiritual".

 

[Justin-H.S.]

@rusmeister

It's helpful to see that IVF is a form of a "Garment of Skin" which St. Gregory of Nyssa spoke about that we should try to shed as many "garments of skin" as possible, which is why monastics live the way they do.
Garments of Skin are both good and bad. Every time they bring something positive, there is something negative in the outset, and vice versa. Every time it starts as something negative, there's a way to make it into a positive. I think you can see the connection to IVF in that manner.

Unfortunately, we modern men, in our weakness have many garments of skin that alienate us from Paradise. We can only make an effort to shed those garments in whichever way possible through the help of God.

 

[rusmeister]

This touches on a broader problem - whether the Church can have one mind in relationship with new realities and even old realities that are brought to the forefront. It is very problematic especially when trying to evangelize or even raise young people in the faith. I'm sorry for the rant, just airing out some issues I've been struggling with in the past couple of years.

The Orthodox Church seem to have few or no authoritative answers to real life. There is a rich heritage of teaching that is derived from and applicable to monastic life, but do we have a universal source of guidance for day-to-day struggles? Sure, you can point to one hierarch or another, to one theology book or another and to what an Elder once said - but I'm wondering about answers from the Church, in consensus. It slowly turns into a Protestant paradigm where hyperlocal and individual interpretation of canons and Church Fathers dominates. Just look at this thread: everyone says "I know the true truth, forget the bishops". Looks like a discussion among non-denoms.

On the one hand, you have Patriarch Bartholomew (praying for his health and recovery) who isn't very sure that abortion is wrong, on the other you have spiritual fathers who teach using the calendar method is a deadly sin. And an ever expanding "pastoral discretion" and definition of economia. Which, in effect, means an ever shrinking episcopal guidance.

Soon, we'll have to grapple with more and more complex realities as science and technology advance. What will the Church do? For me, the most depressing illustration is the COVID precedent - where (most) bishops defaulted to shrinking the Church's domain rather than leading, and that with no resistance: "medicine is not a spiritual matter". Once they did that, there is a big risk that the Church will keep withdrawing into irrelevance. As of now, the message is: "For all non-spiritual matters, please ask the appropriate authorities. Not our business". I believe the default should be the opposite: "everything is spiritual".

I really sympathize with this. In a vital sense, all faith is ultimately individual, certainly in the sense that we as individuals, have to decide what we ultimately believe. The Catholics take it the farthest with their Magisterium, and a doctrine of ex cathedra infallibility, but that doesn't hold the line of consistent truth over time any better than the Orthodox dependence on the consensus of the fathers (and what we understand that to be); if anything, the Catholic dependence on living external authority is LESS effective, and the Catholic Church MORE split up, and a leader who goes bad like Pope Francis unexpectedly did does more damage than our ecumenical Patriarch, who is, thankfully, relatively powerless. The Orthodox Church is protected by inertia, and the glacial pace at which it comes to any pronouncement, because we can hardly get a real pan-ecumenical Council together.

So you still have to decide if the Orthodox Church is IT. You may have to continue deciding every day for the rest of your life. I'm left with "Where can we go, Lord, You have the words of eternal life!" and Indiana Jones's "You want to talk to God? Let's go see Him together. I have nothing better to do." And yeah, it's messed up and full of messed up humans. But there is hope if we commit to trying to submit ourselves where we most don't want to to the established teachings of the Church, and extrapolate from there when we run into the conflicts of modernity and have no direct teaching on IVF or Covid. But for the one, we DO have direct teaching on sexuality, and the family, and for the other we do have teaching on death, and the extent to which we should fear it.

 

[rusmeister]

Laura Klassen is an amazing Canadian woman who has been spearheading one of the most effective movements against abortion as the “pro-life” movement seems to be losing its way. This talk about IVF was censored on FB even though it’s just a talk at a church; she says she received a notification that no one would be allowed to see it in their feeds; it’s about IVF and its effects, and that starts after the 13-minute mark.

 

[truefiction1]

Laura Klassen is an amazing Canadian woman who has been spearheading one of the most effective movements against abortion as the “pro-life” movement seems to be losing its way. This talk about IVF was censored on FB even though it’s just a talk at a church; she says she received a notification that no one would be allowed to see it in their feeds; it’s about IVF and its effects, and that starts after the 13-minute mark.

I agree 100 percent. We must not benefit from these abominations. No matter what the false prophet mutters to the people; blind leading the blind...

 

[rusmeister]

This is her channel, amazingly not censored yet. She has a bunch of great one-minute videos, even translated into Spanish and German.
https://youtube.com/channel/UCnfCbRs3R2_-dpMRIPzLQpA

Honestly, this whole section ought to be a separate thread, though. It’s only tangentially related to the issue of vaccination/experimental drugs.