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3 Resurrections

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I thought we were discussing Matthew 24:31.
Okay, the Matthew 24:31 text about the angels "gathering" the elect from one end of the heavens to the other is a repetition of the "wheat and tares" parable event in Matthew 13:24-31, as explained to the disciples by Christ in Matthew 13:37-43. The celestial angels were going to have a two-fold task on that occasion in AD 70. First, to gather the tares into bundles to be burned, and then to gather the wheat into God's "barn".

If you are certain that this is earthly messengers "gathering" the saints together in some sense other than the physical resurrection of the saints' dead bodies, then I would pose the following question to you: How did those earthly messengers also gather together the "tares" first into bundles to be burned, even before they gathered the "wheat"? Have you a symbolic meaning attached to the earthly messengers being able to gather the unrighteous "tares" together?
 
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Hammster

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Okay, the Matthew 24:31 text about the angels "gathering" the elect from one end of the heavens to the other is a repetition of the "wheat and tares" parable event in Matthew 13:24-31, as explained to the disciples by Christ in Matthew 13:37-43. The celestial angels were going to have a two-fold task on that occasion in AD 70. First, to gather the tares into bundles to be burned, and then to gather the wheat into God's "barn".

If you are certain that this is earthly messengers "gathering" the saints together in some sense other than the physical resurrection of the saints' dead bodies, then I would pose the following question to you: How did those earthly messengers also gather together the "tares" first into bundles to be burned, even before they gathered the "wheat"? Have you a symbolic meaning attached to the earthly messengers being able to gather the unrighteous "tares" together?
Again, you are reading more into it than what is there.
 
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If you are certain that this is earthly messengers "gathering" the saints together in some sense other than the physical resurrection of the saints' dead bodies, then I would pose the following question to you: How did those earthly messengers also gather together the "tares" first into bundles to be burned, even before they gathered the "wheat"? Have you a symbolic meaning attached to the earthly messengers being able to gather the unrighteous "tares" together?

Bumping this question, if you have the time to consider it...

Are you of the mind that the "gathering" of the "wheat and tares" in the harvest parable of Matthew 13 is NOT speaking of the same "gathering" of the elect performed by the angels in Matthew 24:31? I'm trying to compare scripture with scripture, but perhaps you do not see these two passages as the same event.
 
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Hammster

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Bumping this question, if you have the time to consider it...

Are you of the mind that the "gathering" of the "wheat and tares" in the harvest parable of Matthew 13 is NOT speaking of the same "gathering" of the elect performed by the angels in Matthew 24:31? I'm trying to compare scripture with scripture, but perhaps you do not see these two passages as the same event.
I see the wheat/tares occurring at the end of time, not at the end of the temple.
 
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I see the wheat/tares occurring at the end of time, not at the end of the temple.

Did you ever consider that it might be BOTH? A "gathering" of harvested wheat and tares back in AD 70, and yet another harvest "gathering" in our future as well?

In other words, one harvest to close out God's dealings with those who had lived and died on earth from creation to the end of that Old Covenant generation, and one last harvest to close out God's dealings with those who will have lived and died under the New Covenant conditions?

After all, this would exactly match the agricultural pattern of harvests in the land of Israel, which had a wheat harvest around Pentecost, and the largest, most varied harvest of different crops at the end of their agricultural year, celebrated at the Feast of Tabernacles.
 
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Did you ever consider that it might be BOTH? A "gathering" of harvested wheat and tares back in AD 70, and yet another harvest "gathering" in our future as well?

In other words, one harvest to close out God's dealings with those who had lived and died on earth from creation to the end of that Old Covenant generation, and one last harvest to close out God's dealings with those who will have lived and died under the New Covenant conditions?

After all, this would exactly match the agricultural pattern of harvests in the land of Israel, which had a wheat harvest around Pentecost, and the largest, most varied harvest of different crops at the end of their agricultural year, celebrated at the Feast of Tabernacles.
I don’t see the need to consider it.
 
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Douggg

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There cannot be two "First" resurrection events. According to II Cor. 15:23, in consecutive order, those would be the first resurrection of Christ and the Matthew 27 saints raised by Him in AD 33, and "afterward" the second resurrection that took place at His coming. You know, the resurrection that Paul told Felix, Timothy, and those on Mars Hill was "about to" take place.
Them resurrected in Revelation 20:4-6 are the martyred great tribulation saints - not a general resurrection.
 
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I don’t see the need to consider it.

Which is certainly your privilege. It's unfortunate, though, since it is the way to reconcile the opposing camps of eschatology, who are each holding firmly to certain pieces of scripture truths that when united make up the whole puzzle.
 
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Them resurrected in Revelation 20:4-6 are the martyred great tribulation saints - not a general resurrection.

That "remnant of the dead" coming to life again in Revelation 20:5-6 is bluntly pronounced to be "The First Resurrection". John didn't seem to think that there needed to be much more explanation that that. "This is the first resurrection", he said. Period. I can just see the original readers of Revelation slapping their forehead saying, "Oh yeah, now we get it, John. That makes sense. This "First resurrection" is that group of resurrected folks that came walking into Jerusalem that we saw on the same day that Jesus arose from the dead. We remember that for sure."

That comparatively small "remnant of the dead" in Revelation 20:5 would be the "First-fruits", which were NOT a general resurrection, as you just said. They were composed of "Christ the First-fruits" and the 144,000 "First-fruits" that He raised from the dead on the same day that he arose.
 
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Which is certainly your privilege. It's unfortunate, though, since it is the way to reconcile the opposing camps of eschatology, who are each holding firmly to certain pieces of scripture truths that when united make up the whole puzzle.
There is no reconciliation of opposing camps as far as I can see. And no need.
 
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Douggg

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That "remnant of the dead" coming to life again in Revelation 20:5-6 is bluntly pronounced to be "The First Resurrection". John didn't seem to think that there needed to be much more explanation that that. "This is the first resurrection", he said. Period.
It is not "period" because there are two resurrection events to take place relative to the millennium in the text.

One at the beginning, which those are the great tribulation martyrs. Who's bodies will come back to life, and they will reign with Christ a thousand years.

The second is the rest of the dead after the millennium is over in verse 12-13.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
 
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robycop3

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This is also false. The numismatic records for the coins issued at the beginning of the Zealot rebellion in AD 66 have the Aramaic inscription "Year 1 to the freedom of the Jewish people.", or "Year 2..." etc.

You personally may not consider this as an independent nation of Israel operating, but the people of the time certainly thought so, and left proof of this in the coins they issued at the time after they had overthrown their oppressive Roman governors, and had taken over both the Roman fortress of Antonia in Jerusalem, and Rome-occupied Masada in AD 66.

This was definitely the Scarlet Beast kingdom of Revelation 17 arising to power once again, which would lead everyone in the nation to marvel at their independent nation of Israel coming to life again when the Zealots had cast off the Roman empire's control of their country. "And they that dwell on the earth" (tes ges - the land of Israel) "shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is." (Revelation 17:8).
No, it was just a rebellion, which the Romans soon squelched.
 
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Because nothing could survive that. To answer your question fully, I would need to know what you believe comes next.
If it were fairly brief, there's be many survivors. Jesus implied that when He waid no flesh would survive IF THOSE DAYS WEREN'T CUT SHORT.

What comes next? Jesus said that IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIB, there'd be a great cosmic disturbance & then He'd return.
 
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robycop3

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This is also false. The numismatic records for the coins issued at the beginning of the Zealot rebellion in AD 66 have the Aramaic inscription "Year 1 to the freedom of the Jewish people.", or "Year 2..." etc.

You personally may not consider this as an independent nation of Israel operating, but the people of the time certainly thought so, and left proof of this in the coins they issued at the time after they had overthrown their oppressive Roman governors, and had taken over both the Roman fortress of Antonia in Jerusalem, and Rome-occupied Masada in AD 66.

This was definitely the Scarlet Beast kingdom of Revelation 17 arising to power once again, which would lead everyone in the nation to marvel at their independent nation of Israel coming to life again when the Zealots had cast off the Roman empire's control of their country. "And they that dwell on the earth" (tes ges - the land of Israel) "shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is." (Revelation 17:8).
And the numismatic records show Confederate money was printed in the CSA, which was worthless in the real USA. (It's valuable to numismatists now!) Many rebellious peoples trying to break free of an empire have printed or coined their own money.
 
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This is wrong, according to the planned order of resurrections laid out in II Corinthians 15:23. "But every man in his own order; CHRIST THE FIRST-FRUITS; afterward, they that are Christ's at His coming." Your chronology is off track. CHRIST'S was the "First resurrection" - the "First-fruits" harvest of bodies coming out of the grave. "AFTERWARD" the next resurrection took place at Christ's coming.
...Yes, they will when Christ comes back. That hasn't happened yet, & you can't prove otherwise.
 
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The first resurrection will be for the trib saints who will be saved after the rapture occurs & are killed by the antichrist's beast's forces.

I agree.
Good! But the beast & he antichrist will be the same man. (The term "beast" is also applied to his coming empire.)
 
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Douggg

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Good! But the beast & he antichrist will be the same man. (The term "beast" is also applied to his coming empire.)
I agree that the little horn and the Antichrist and the beast are same man.

But when the great tribulation saints are martyred the person will be the beast, no longer the Antichrist.

____________________________________________________________________

Being the little horn is being the king (leader) of the EU. 7th Julio Claudian king.

Being the Antichrist is being in the King of Israel coming in his own name.

Being the beast is being the king (dictator) of the EU. 8th Julio Claudian king.
 
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3 Resurrections

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No, it was just a rebellion, which the Romans soon squelched.

EXACTLY. It was "soon squelched" because scripture said that the Scarlet Beast was "about to arise from the abyss", but it was ALSO "ABOUT TO...go into destruction", as prophesied in Revelation 17:8. This didn't give that independent kingdom nation of Israel very long at all to operate. From AD 66 until AD 70 to be precise. Even the Romans acknowledged that it was an independent nation which they had conquered. Otherwise, they would never have taken Simon bar Gioras prisoner to show off in their Roman triumph, and then execute him as the "King of the Jews". A "King" over the kingdom of Israel which they had just conquered.
 
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