Preterism-phony as a Ford Corvette

[Spiritual Jew]

What kind of elements do you think Peter is talking about? You can find what it means and how it's used here. Strong's Greek: 4747. στοιχεῖον (stoicheion) -- one of a row, hence a letter (of the alphabet), by ext. the elements (of knowledge)
As to physical elements, the most abundant elements in the universe are hydrogen(73%) and helium(25%) with melting points of -259 and -269 respectively.
In Peters first letter (1 Peter 4:7), he told them the end of all things was near. Was he wrong?

No, he wasn't wrong, but your understanding of what he was saying is wrong. No one knows the day or hour (Matt 24:36, Matt 25:13). So, Peter certainly was not saying he knew that it was literally nearly about to happen. What he meant is that the end of all things was continually approaching and was certain to happen and could happen literally soon for all anyone knew, so be ready. Which is what he indicated in 2 Peter 3:10-12 as well. But, 2 Peter 3:10-12, which is a description of the event he had referred to in 1 Peter 4:7, has clearly not happened yet.

 

[Hammster]

Yes, it is true that angels are on a continual basis gathering the spirits of the righteous on a case-by-case basis as those saints pass through physical death But this is not quite the same context of what is under discussion. As to one particular occasion of "gathering His elect" done by the reaping angels, Christ told His disciples this was going to take place in "the completion of the age" (which was in AD 70). On that occasion, the "wheat and tares" were separated, and the "wheat" was gathered into the "barn". This was a group event - not the other case-by-case gathering of the spirits of the righteous at their physical death.

We also can’t assume that angels mean spiritual beings. It could just mean messengers.

 

[Hammster]

The problem is that you're not thinking this through carefully enough.

If the angels started gathering the elect back then and are still gathering the elect now then how can you say that "this generation" is already passed?

Matthew 24:34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

"All these things" would include the gathering of the elect. If the elect are still being gathered then this generation has not yet passed away.

And, I believe that Jesus implied that this generation would pass away when heaven and earth pass away, which has not yet occurred.

34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

Beyond all that, you're not recognizing that the gathering of the elect is a one time event which Paul wrote about here:

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

If you are insistent on it happening during “this generation”, then okay. What isn’t said is that all of the elect will be gathered. Or for what purpose. The elect could have been gathered for their safety during the tribulation.

 

[3 Resurrections]

No one knows the day or hour (Matt 24:36, Matt 25:13)

That "no one knows" statement was a present tense ignorance; true at the time Christ uttered that phrase. However, this was not an all-time-and-forever limitation on that information, since John's Revelation passed down (from the Father - to Christ - to John - to the servants of God in those days) the information telling them of the "at hand" return of Christ in their days. Peter's epistle written around AD 65 was written after John's Revelation, which was written in late AD 59 up to early AD 60. What John's Revelation had revealed earlier was then known by Peter, when 1 Peter 4:7 said "the end of all things is at hand". This was a repetition of John's Revelation, which said that the future revealed prophecies he wrote down were then "at hand" (Rev. 1:3, and Rev. 22:10).

 

[3 Resurrections]

We also can’t assume that angels mean spiritual beings. It could just mean messengers.

True that. I have argued that point myself more than once. But the context is that this "gathering" was going to be not only from all points of the compass, but "from one end of the heavens to the other" as well.

"And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens." (Mark 13:27). "
"And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." (Matthew 24:31).

No ordinary earthly messengers are capable of that range of operation. No earthly messenger could have gathered Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and the long-dead prophets included in this "gathering". This must have been done by celestial messengers, and they collected the physical matter that once composed the bodies of all those saints; re-uniting them with their spirits, and gathering them all together to Christ, who presented them faultless before the presence of God's glory with exceeding joy. "Behold! I and the children whom thou hast given me!" Christ triumphantly proclaimed on that occasion.

One day in the future, we too will have the same kind of joyous presentation before God's presence at the last resurrection.

 

[robycop3]

I’m not sure how you are misunderstanding my point. I’ll try repeating it so that maybe you read what I am actually writing. His coming on the clouds is like Isaiah 19.


The oracle concerning Egypt.
Behold, the Lord is riding on a swift cloud and is about to come to Egypt;
The idols of Egypt will tremble at His presence,
And the heart of the Egyptians will melt within them.
— Isaiah 19:1

He came INVISIBLY to Egypt, whether on a cloud or not.

 

[robycop3]

That is false. Scripture in Revelation 20:5 makes it abundantly clear that the millennium comes to an end and is "finished" when the "First resurrection" takes place. That "First resurrection" has always belonged to "Christ the First-fruits". He and the Matthew 27:52-53 resurrected saints (that "remnant of the dead") composed that "First resurrection" found in Revelation 20:5. What part of "First" do you not understand?
You are confusing Christ's "First resurrection" event with the last resurrection at the close of human history. There can't be a "First" resurrection unless there is at least one or more of them to follow.

The first resurrection will be for the trib saints who will be saved after the rapture occurs & are killed by the antichrist's forces.

 

[robycop3]

Do you agree that repeat is a synonym of affirm, as the link I posted shows?

No. A repeat CAN be an affirm, but if it's merely a repeat, that's all it is.

 

[robycop3]

In this post, you claimed:

"Festus, and especially Florus, were largely responsible for inflaming Jewish unrest..."

What is your source for that information? Where did you read it?

Several years ago in Collier's Encyclopedia. It may be in Wikipedia noe; I haven't looked.

 

[jgr]

Several years ago in Collier's Encyclopedia. It may be in Wikipedia noe; I haven't looked.

So you're repeating that information from Collier's Encyclopedia?

 

[3 Resurrections]

The first resurrection will be for the trib saints who will be saved after the rapture occurs & are killed by the antichrist's forces.

This is wrong, according to the planned order of resurrections laid out in II Corinthians 15:23. "But every man in his own order; CHRIST THE FIRST-FRUITS; afterward, they that are Christ's at His coming." Your chronology is off track. CHRIST'S was the "First resurrection" - the "First-fruits" harvest of bodies coming out of the grave. "AFTERWARD" the next resurrection took place at Christ's coming.

 

[Hammster]

True that. I have argued that point myself more than once. But the context is that this "gathering" was going to be not only from all points of the compass, but "from one end of the heavens to the other" as well.

"And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens." (Mark 13:27). "
"And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." (Matthew 24:31).

No ordinary earthly messengers are capable of that range of operation. No earthly messenger could have gathered Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and the long-dead prophets included in this "gathering". This must have been done by celestial messengers, and they collected the physical matter that once composed the bodies of all those saints; re-uniting them with their spirits, and gathering them all together to Christ, who presented them faultless before the presence of God's glory with exceeding joy. "Behold! I and the children whom thou hast given me!" Christ triumphantly proclaimed on that occasion.

One day in the future, we too will have the same kind of joyous presentation before God's presence at the last resurrection.

Actually, earthly messengers are capable if you understand how the original audience would have understood the scope.

 

[Hammster]

He came INVISIBLY to Egypt, whether on a cloud or not.

THANK YOU!!!! We are finally on the same page.

 

[Douggg]

The first resurrection will be for the trib saints who will be saved after the rapture occurs & are killed by the antichrist's forces.

The first resurrection will be for the trib saints who will be saved after the rapture occurs & are killed by the antichrist's beast's forces.

I agree.

 

[Douggg]

This is wrong, according to the planned order of resurrections laid out in II Corinthians 15:23. "But every man in his own order; CHRIST THE FIRST-FRUITS; afterward, they that are Christ's at His coming." Your chronology is off track. CHRIST'S was the "First resurrection" - the "First-fruits" harvest of bodies coming out of the grave. "AFTERWARD" the next resurrection took place at Christ's coming.

Jesus being the First-fruits and the first resurrection of them to be resurrected after Jesus returns - are two different things.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Jesus being the First-fruits and the first resurrection of them to be resurrected after Jesus returns - are two different things.

There cannot be two "First" resurrection events. According to II Cor. 15:23, in consecutive order, those would be the first resurrection of Christ and the Matthew 27 saints raised by Him in AD 33, and "afterward" the second resurrection that took place at His coming. You know, the resurrection that Paul told Felix, Timothy, and those on Mars Hill was "about to" take place.

"And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there is about to be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust...And as he reasoned of righteousness, temperance, and judgement about to come, Felix trembled, and answered, Go thy way for this time; when I have a convenient season, I will call for thee." (Acts 24:15,25).

"I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who is about to judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;" (II Timothy 4:1).

"And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he is about to judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead." (Acts 17:30-31).

All three of these texts refer to the second resurrection event that was soon going to take place in that first-century generation.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Actually, earthly messengers are capable if you understand how the original audience would have understood the scope.

The original audience understood the "scope" of the resurrection to include the physical bodies of their dead loved ones in the Lord being all gathered together at one time, as in I Thess. 4. Plus, they had the Matthew 27:52-53 resurrected saints for a glorified example of what the promised resurrection entailed for their dead loved ones in the Lord, as well as for themselves, should they die before that time when Christ returned.

Earthly messengers did not do this gathering together of the physical bodies of all the dead saints. This was a task that Christ said the celestial angels would perform at His command (as in the "wheat and tares" parable of Matthew 13:24-30). The AD 70 bodily resurrection was the "harvest" at the completion of that age. The "reapers" were the celestial angels that Christ brought with Him at His return back then to do the gathering of the tares first to burn them, and then to gather the wheat.

 

[Hammster]

The original audience understood the "scope" of the resurrection to include the physical bodies of their dead loved ones in the Lord being all gathered together at one time, as in I Thess. 4. Plus, they had the Matthew 27:52-53 resurrected saints for a glorified example of what the promised resurrection entailed for their dead loved ones in the Lord, as well as for themselves, should they die before that time when Christ returned.

Earthly messengers did not do this gathering together of the physical bodies of all the dead saints. This was a task that Christ said the celestial angels would perform at His command (as in the "wheat and tares" parable of Matthew 13:24-30). The AD 70 bodily resurrection was the "harvest" at the completion of that age. The "reapers" were the celestial angels that Christ brought with Him at His return back then to do the gathering of the tares first to burn them, and then to gather the wheat.

I think you’ve read more into that verse than what is there.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Which verse did you have in mind in particular?

 

[Hammster]

Which verse did you have in mind in particular?

I thought we were discussing Matthew 24:31.