God's unconditional promises to the ancient nation of Israel

[setst777]

setst777 said: ↑
No one is righteous, not even one. God accredited righteousness to the accounts of those who believed in Him in anticipation of the redemption that would come through the Gospel of Christ.

All those in the Old Covenant who were awaiting the ransom to be made for them, are now purchased by the blood of the Lamb.

Romans 3:25-26 (WEB) 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26 he did it (paid the ransom) to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

Hebrews 9:15 (WEB)

• For this reason he is the mediator of a new covenant,
• since a death has occurred for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first covenant,
• that those who have been called (OT and NT saints) may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Did you read those Passages?

I did, they are not saying what you think they are saying, but that is not my point. I am trying to understand what exactly you believe in.

???

When you said

setst777 said: ↑
God accredited righteousness to the accounts of those who believed in Him in anticipation of the redemption that would come through the Gospel of Christ.

If God accredited righteousness to them, before the cross, you are also saying you believed that the OT saints were righteous before the cross happened.

Am I understanding you correctly?

Those whom God accredited righteousness by faith were not redeemed until Christ Jesus paid the penalty to redeem them.

God would not be righteous if He redeemed them before the redemption was paid for.

Romans 3:25-26 (WEB)

• God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith.
• He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished —
• He did it (paid the ransom) to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

That is why the Old Covenant saints were not redeemed until Christ paid the ransom – and so satisfy the righteousness of God.

Hebrews 9:15 (WEB)

• For this reason he is the mediator of a new covenant,
• since a death has occurred for the redemption
• of the transgressions that were under the first covenant,
• that those who have been called (OT and NT saints) may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

If you are reading something different from these Passages than what they are saying, the explain what you think they mean to you.

Orthodox Christianity, all of it, believes Lord Jesus sacrifice of himself is what redeems us from sin and death when we believe.

 

[BABerean2]

Only by Faith does the Spirit indwell a person, and only in the New Covenant.

Isa 63:11 Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where is he that put his holy Spirit within him?


Luk 1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.


Luk 1:41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:


Luk 1:67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,


.

 

[Guojing]

setst777 said: ↑
No one is righteous, not even one. God accredited righteousness to the accounts of those who believed in Him in anticipation of the redemption that would come through the Gospel of Christ.

All those in the Old Covenant who were awaiting the ransom to be made for them, are now purchased by the blood of the Lamb.

Romans 3:25-26 (WEB) 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26 he did it (paid the ransom) to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

Hebrews 9:15 (WEB)

• For this reason he is the mediator of a new covenant,
• since a death has occurred for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first covenant,
• that those who have been called (OT and NT saints) may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Did you read those Passages?



???



Those whom God accredited righteousness by faith were not redeemed until Christ Jesus paid the penalty to redeem them.

God would not be righteous if He redeemed them before the redemption was paid for.

Romans 3:25-26 (WEB)

• God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith.
• He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished —
• He did it (paid the ransom) to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

That is why the Old Covenant saints were not redeemed until Christ paid the ransom – and so satisfy the righteousness of God.

Hebrews 9:15 (WEB)

• For this reason he is the mediator of a new covenant,
• since a death has occurred for the redemption
• of the transgressions that were under the first covenant,
• that those who have been called (OT and NT saints) may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

If you are reading something different from these Passages than what they are saying, the explain what you think they mean to you.

Orthodox Christianity, all of it, believes Lord Jesus sacrifice of himself is what redeems us from sin and death when we believe.

Is there a reason why you do not want to answer my question regarding what you believe in?

Were the OT saints declared righteous by God, before the cross happened?

 

[setst777]

Isa 63:11 Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where is he that put his holy Spirit within him?


Luk 1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

Luk 1:41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:

Luk 1:67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,
.

None of those Passages teach that the New Covenant in the Spirit already took place in the Old Covenant.

None of the Scriptures you quoted state that the Spirit was already being poured out on believers in the Old Covenant.

I provided the Scriptures to you teaching that the promise of the Spirit began on the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2... and see: Acts 2:38)

And that the Spirit could only have been given to believers AFTER the glorification of Lord Jesus.

John 7:37-39 (WEB)
37 Now on the last and greatest day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink! 38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive. For the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus wasn’t yet glorified.

 

[setst777]

Is there a reason why you do not want to answer my question regarding what you believe in?

Were the OT saints declared righteous by God, before the cross happened?

Yes. And that is what I kept saying to you, but you cannot accept it.

 

[Guojing]

Yes. And that is what I kept saying to you, but you cannot accept it.

I fail to see a yes anywhere in your previous replies, but I am glad you are finally saying it here.

So if you believe one can be righteous and yet not redeemed, do you think the opposite can also be true?

Can one be redeemed, but not righteous?

 

[BABerean2]

None of those Passages teach that the New Covenant in the Spirit already took place in the Old Covenant.

None of the Scriptures you quoted state that the Spirit was already being poured out on believers in the Old Covenant.

I provided the Scriptures to you teaching that the promise of the Spirit began on the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2... and see: Acts 2:38)

And that the Spirit could only have been given to believers AFTER the glorification of Lord Jesus.

John 7:37-39 (WEB)
37 Now on the last and greatest day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink! 38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive. For the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus wasn’t yet glorified.

Anyone here can read those scriptures for themselves.


Do you think Isaiah and Luke were confused?


.

 

[setst777]

I fail to see a yes anywhere in your previous replies, but I am glad you are finally saying it here.

So if you believe one can be righteous and yet not redeemed, do you think the opposite can also be true?

Can one be redeemed, but not righteous?

No one can be righteous, not even one. God declared them righteous in advance, leaving their sins unpunished UNTIL Christ appeared to redeem them.

Romans 3:25-26 (WEB)

• God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith.
• He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished —
• He did it (paid the ransom) to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

That is why the Old Covenant saints were not redeemed until Christ paid the ransom – and so satisfy the righteousness of God.

Hebrews 9:15 (WEB)

• For this reason he is the mediator of a new covenant,
• since a death has occurred for the redemption
• of the transgressions that were under the first covenant,
• that those who have been called (OT and NT saints) may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

If you are reading something different from these Passages than what they are saying, the explain what you think they mean to you.

Orthodox Christianity, all of it, believes Lord Jesus sacrifice of himself is what redeems us from sin and death when we believe.

 

[Guojing]

No one can be righteous, not even one. God declared them righteous in advance, leaving their sins unpunished UNTIL Christ appeared to redeem them.

Romans 3:25-26 (WEB)

• God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith.
• He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished —
• He did it (paid the ransom) to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

That is why the Old Covenant saints were not redeemed until Christ paid the ransom – and so satisfy the righteousness of God.

Hebrews 9:15 (WEB)

• For this reason he is the mediator of a new covenant,
• since a death has occurred for the redemption
• of the transgressions that were under the first covenant,
• that those who have been called (OT and NT saints) may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

If you are reading something different from these Passages than what they are saying, the explain what you think they mean to you.

Orthodox Christianity, all of it, believes Lord Jesus sacrifice of himself is what redeems us from sin and death when we believe.

Can I confirm that you are answering my question with a No?

As in you are replying with a No, I don't believe anyone can be redeemed, but not righteous.

 

[setst777]

Anyone here can read those scriptures for themselves.

Do you think Isaiah and Luke were confused?

.

No, neither Isaiah or Luke were confused.

 

[setst777]

Can I confirm that you are answering my question with a No?

As in you are replying with a No, I don't believe anyone can be redeemed, but not righteous.

You see? Did I not say that I responded but you cannot accept it?

Here was your question:

Guojing said: ↑
Were the OT saints declared righteous by God, before the cross happened?

Answer: YES. That is what the Scriptures teach. That is Orthodox Christianity. Lord Jesus paid the penalty on the cross to redeem those who believe.

 

[Guojing]

You see? Did I not say that I responded but you cannot accept it?

Here was your question:

Guojing said: ↑
Were the OT saints declared righteous by God, before the cross happened?

Answer: YES. That is what the Scriptures teach. That is Orthodox Christianity. Lord Jesus paid the penalty on the cross to redeem those who believe.

Wow, you didn't even read my post before you reply?

I thank you for saying yes to that already, I am asking you another question

Can one be redeemed, but not righteous?

 

[setst777]

Wow, you didn't even read my post before you reply?

I thank you for saying yes to that already, I am asking you another question

Can one be redeemed, but not righteous?

No.

 

[Guojing]

No.

Thanks for the clear answer.

For me, I believe OT saints are all in Abraham's bosom. They will only receive their righteousness/redemption in the future, at the 2nd coming of Christ for the nation Israel.

I do not separate righteousness from redemption unlike you.

The beauty about Paul's gospel for us is that, due to the fall of present Israel, all of us have righteousness/redemption right now, the moment we believe (Ephesians 1:7)

 

[setst777]

Thanks for the clear answer.

For me, I believe OT saints are all in Abraham's bosom. They will only receive their righteousness/redemption in the future, at the 2nd coming of Christ for the nation Israel.

I do not separate righteousness from redemption unlike you.

The beauty about Paul's gospel for us is that, due to the fall of present Israel, all of us have righteousness/redemption right now, the moment we believe (Ephesians 1:7)

The Christian Church, all of it, believes that redemption is only possible by the Gospel - the death, burial, resurrection, and glorification of Lord Jesus.

When Lord Jesus was on the cross, just before He died, he said, "It is finished!" The payment was paid, the ransom price was satisfied.

Those who believed, before the Gospel, were declared righteous by faith, but redemption only came after Lord Jesus made payment for the sins they committed under the first covenant.

Romans 3:25-26 (WEB)

• God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith.
• He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished —
• He did it (paid the ransom) to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

That is why the Old Covenant saints were not redeemed until Christ paid the ransom – and so satisfy the righteousness of God.

Hebrews 9:15 (WEB)

• For this reason he is the mediator of a new covenant,
• since a death has occurred for the redemption
• of the transgressions that were under the first covenant,
• that those who have been called (OT and NT saints) may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

If you are reading something different from these Passages than what they are saying, the explain what you think they mean to you.

Orthodox Christianity, all of it, teaches that all those who believe are declared righteous, even the OT saints (not because the OT are righteous, but because God left those sins unpunished looking forward to Christ).

Lord Jesus sacrifice of himself is what redeems us from sin and death to those declared righteous by faith.

 

[setst777]

Thanks for the clear answer.

For me, I believe OT saints are all in Abraham's bosom. They will only receive their righteousness/redemption in the future, at the 2nd coming of Christ for the nation Israel.

I do not separate righteousness from redemption unlike you.

You say you do not separate righteousness from redemption like me.

Was Abraham accredited righteousness by faith?
Was Abraham redeemed at that time?

 

[Guojing]

The Christian Church, all of it, believes that redemption is only possible by the Gospel - the death, burial, resurrection, and glorification of Lord Jesus.

When Lord Jesus was on the cross, just before He died, he said, "It is finished!" The payment was paid, the ransom price was satisfied.

Those who believed, before the Gospel, were declared righteous by faith, but redemption only came after Lord Jesus made payment for the sins they committed under the first covenant.

Romans 3:25-26 (WEB)

• God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith.
• He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished —
• He did it (paid the ransom) to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

That is why the Old Covenant saints were not redeemed until Christ paid the ransom – and so satisfy the righteousness of God.

Hebrews 9:15 (WEB)

• For this reason he is the mediator of a new covenant,
• since a death has occurred for the redemption
• of the transgressions that were under the first covenant,
• that those who have been called (OT and NT saints) may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

If you are reading something different from these Passages than what they are saying, the explain what you think they mean to you.

Orthodox Christianity, all of it, teaches that all those who believe are declared righteous, even the OT saints (not because the OT are righteous, but because God left those sins unpunished looking forward to Christ).

Lord Jesus sacrifice of himself is what redeems us from sin and death to those declared righteous by faith.

Even after the cross, Peter never preached to Israel that they can get present redemption of their sins.

Some examples are seen in Acts 3:19-21 and 1 Peter 1:9 1 Peter 4:17-18

Paul also reminded us in Romans 11:25-27 that the forgiveness of sins for national Israel will come in the 2nd coming.

You should interpret Romans 3:25-26 based on the previous verse Romans 3:21

But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, but it is the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift

We get the righteousness of God, thru being in the Body of Christ, in the but now time period, but the OT saints live in time past so you have to rightly divide the word of truth

As for your interpretation of Hebrews, that is a future promise. The New Covenant has not begun yet, because Israel is currently fallen in the eyes of God (Romans 11:11).

But they will receive that new covenant, and the forgiveness of sins, in the future (Hebrews 8:8-12).

 

[setst777]

Even after the cross, Peter never preached to Israel that they can get present redemption of their sins.

Some examples are seen in Acts 3:19-21 and 1 Peter 1:9 1 Peter 4:17-18

Paul also reminded us in Romans 11:25-27 that the forgiveness of sins for national Israel will come in the 2nd coming.

You should interpret Romans 3:25-26 based on the previous verse Romans 3:21

But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, but it is the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift

We get the righteousness of God, thru being in the Body of Christ, in the but now time period, but the OT saints live in time past so you have to rightly divide the word of truth

As for your interpretation of Hebrews, that is a future promise. The New Covenant has not begun yet, because Israel is currently fallen in the eyes of God (Romans 11:11).

But they will receive that new covenant, and the forgiveness of sins, in the future (Hebrews 8:8-12).

You say you do not separate righteousness from redemption like me.

Was Abraham accredited righteousness by faith?
Was Abraham redeemed at that time?

What about all those Old Testament saints that God declared righteous before they were redeemed?

Habakkuk 2:3-4 (WEB) But the righteous will live by faith. If he shrinks back, my soul has no pleasure in him.

Hebrews 11:4 (WEB)
By faith, Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, through which he had testimony given to him that he was righteous, God testifying with respect to his gifts; and through it he, being dead, still speaks.

Hebrews 11:7 (WEB)
By faith, Noah, being warned about things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared a ship for the saving of his house, through which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.

Hebrews 11:33
32 What more shall I say? For the time would fail me if I told of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, David, Samuel, and the prophets, who through faith subdued kingdoms, worked out righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, [Daniel 6:22-23]

 

[Guojing]

You say you do not separate righteousness from redemption like me.

Was Abraham accredited righteousness by faith?
Was Abraham redeemed at that time?

What about all those Old Testament saints that God declared righteous before they were redeemed?

Habakkuk 2:3-4 (WEB) But the righteous will live by faith. If he shrinks back, my soul has no pleasure in him.

Hebrews 11:4 (WEB)
By faith, Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, through which he had testimony given to him that he was righteous, God testifying with respect to his gifts; and through it he, being dead, still speaks.

Hebrews 11:7 (WEB)
By faith, Noah, being warned about things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared a ship for the saving of his house, through which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.

Hebrews 11:33
32 What more shall I say? For the time would fail me if I told of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, David, Samuel, and the prophets, who through faith subdued kingdoms, worked out righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, [Daniel 6:22-23]

When you interpret Hebrews 11, you have to use Hebrews 11:13

13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
[/QUOTE]

Basically, no one is in the third heaven now, other than God. (Acts 2:34).

But I do understand the appeal of the doctrine that, after Christ rose from the dead, he took all the OT saints into heaven. If that is what you believe in, we can agree to disagree.

 

[setst777]

When you interpret Hebrews 11, you have to use Hebrews 11:13

13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Basically, no one is in the third heaven now, other than God. (Acts 2:34).

But I do understand the appeal of the doctrine that, after Christ rose from the dead, he took all the OT saints into heaven. If that is what you believe in, we can agree to disagree.

Interesting ideas.

Consider that, now that Christ has paid the ransom, no one who believed, awaits in hell. Those who believe, who were declared righteous by God, are redeemed from hell, and so are in the heavenly paradise, but not yet resurrected until the 2nd coming.

Did Lord Jesus not pay for their sins in full? Why then do you think that they must now wait thousands of years later to be redeemed, when Lord Jesus already paid the ransom for their sins, the same as us?

Hebrews 11:36-40 (WEB)
36 Others were tried by mocking and scourging, yes, moreover by bonds and imprisonment. 37 They were stoned. [2 Chronicles 24:20-21] They were sawn apart. They were tempted. They were slain with the sword. [Jeremiah 26:20-23; 1 Kings 19:10] They went around in sheep skins and in goat skins; being destitute, afflicted, ill-treated— 38 of whom the world was not worthy—wandering in deserts, mountains, caves, and the holes of the earth.
39 These all, having had testimony given to them through their faith, didn’t receive the promise, 40 God having provided some better thing concerning us, so that apart from us they should not be made perfect.

The OT and NT believer are both - together - heirs of the promise of God - made perfect together, both receiving what was promised by faith.

Romans 4:16-17 (WEB)
16 For this cause it is of faith, that it may be according to grace, to the end that the promise may be sure to all the offspring, not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all. 17 As it is written, “ I have made you a father of many nations.” [Genesis 17:5]