After many years, I think I finally understand why I disagree

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Hey now, you're talking to someone who has a replica of the labyrinth at Chartres as a woodcarving made by his late grandfather. I don't use it for spiritual exercises, but it's hardly new age. It's from the 1200's.

I've also been around Catholics a bit in my life and in case you didn't know, Catholics have a thing for candles and chanting.

Call it whatever you will, but you can hardly qualify it a "new age."

But that does bring me to a point: from whence does the suspicion arise? I'm still looking for a concrete answer on that one -- and that's all we can really do as there is so much misinformation out there.

In the interest of dispelling misinformation, here's a video I bumped into that I thought was a decent intro:

I don't agree with all of its assertions, especially on neoplatonism which can get anyone into hot water. Neoplatonism was hugely influential on the culture surrounding the church earlier in its history, which makes it relevant, but it was never something christianity endorsed, and I think it's an unfair comparison to say that mystics are neoplatonists. They have similarities, which they share with Paul, who precedes neoplatonism.

There has to be a point where it is just you, God, and the Bible. Nothing else will bring you any spiritual peace or satisfaction in this life except the Lord Jesus and His Word. Christian Mysticism is not the way, friend. Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. I would encourage all to follow Him, and His words alone and nothing else. But in my experience, most want the Burger King way, and not the way of Yahweh.
 
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TheWhat?

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There has to be a point where it is just you, God, and the Bible. Nothing else will bring you any spiritual peace or satisfaction in this life except the Lord Jesus and His Word. Christian Mysticism is not the way, friend. Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. I would encourage all to follow Him, and His words alone and nothing else. But in my experience, most want the Burger King way, and not the way of Yahweh.

Well, you're entitled to your opinion, I suppose. But be careful with that experience -- gain too much and we might have to start calling you a christian mystic :idea:
 
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2PhiloVoid

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There has to be a point where it is just you, God, and the Bible. Nothing else will bring you any spiritual peace or satisfaction in this life except the Lord Jesus and His Word. Christian Mysticism is not the way, friend. Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. I would encourage all to follow Him, and His words alone and nothing else. But in my experience, most want the Burger King way, and not the way of Yahweh.

Personally, I agree with the essentials of what you're saying, and I don't take part in formal mysticism myself. However, speaking from an analytic position, the term itself is a catch-all net that catches too many fish, so to speak. Sure, mysticism can describe the practices of the New Age if it's New Agers we're speaking about, but mysticism probably shouldn't be stigmatized as being New Age (necessarily) when he term is used to refer to beliefs and practices among traditional Christians of various kinds (~ Orthodox, Catholic, etc).

Moreover, if a person is just "You, God and the Bible," without relation to any learning that takes place in connection with the Church, I'd think that can (but not necessarily) be termed as "cultic." But, brother, I won't press the issue with cultism if you won't press the issue with mysticism. :cool:
 
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RDKirk

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It's been a long and bumpy ride, with far too many fights on all fronts. But now I think I see the historical divide between rationalists and mystics of the faith. The problem arises in that the Logos of the mystics, of Paul, of the early Christians, and of the prophets who preceded them, is not divine reason, alone. That is to say, the Logos is a Person, not only the mind of Jesus. And that Person, having had communion with the Saints from the beginning, though He was without body according to Athanasius, must have always possessed a kind of anatomy that the Saints could be united to Him, including Adam, from which Adam fell.

[1Ti 1:14 NKJV] 14 And the grace of our Lord was exceedingly abundant, with faith and love which are in Christ Jesus.

To engage in heartless reasoning does not lead us in agreement with the love Christ instructed, nor can it. Paul's spirituality emphasized a faith of the heart to affect the renewal of mind and conformation to the likeness of Christ, and reason, without the love of Christ is not divine.

We should have always been turning to the apostles, prophets, scriptures, and Christ Himself as those who hold the keys of wisdom, rather than the philosophers.

Lastly, a closing thought:

[Jhn 11:35 NKJV] 35 Jesus wept.

What, exactly, are you disagreeing with?
 
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Personally, I agree with the essentials of what you're saying, and I don't take part in formal mysticism myself. However, speaking from an analytic position, the term itself is a catch-all net that catches too many fish, so to speak. Sure, mysticism can describe the practices of the New Age if it's New Agers we're speaking about, but mysticism probably shouldn't be stigmatized as being New Age (necessarily) when ithe term is used to refer to beliefs and practiced among traditional Christians of various kinds (~ Orthodox, Catholic, etc).

Moreover, if a person is just "You, God and the Bible," without relation to any learning that takes place in connection with the Church, I'd think that can (but not necessarily) be termed as "cultic." But, brother, I won't press the issue with cultism if you won't press the issue with mysticism. :cool:

When it is just you, God, and the Bible, it will lead to correct fellowship because the Bible teaches to have fellowship with other like minded Scripture focused believers.

As for the word “mysticism:”.

While it may appear to be tied to being used in the faith, it also has a negative meaning that should be avoided.

According to Eytmology Online it says this about mysticism:

Meaning "pertaining to occult practices or ancient religions" is recorded by 1610s. That of "hidden from or obscure to human knowledge or comprehension" is by 1630s.

What exactly do you mean by Mysticism? Labyrinths? Contemplative prayer? Mindless chanting, and lighting candles? Note: Jesus condemns mindless repetition. Can your view of Mysticism be misunderstood by others as New Age practices?

Generally when I refer to a mystic, it refers to a person who is of the dark arts and not a Christian. It would be like a person saying there is a thing such as a round square or something. It doesn’t make any sense. Granted, there are people trying to mix and match things in this life. There is a lady on YouTube who says she is a Christian Witch. This clearly is a Christian mystic and they would be in the wrong for sure. This is why to say mysticism in a positive way is kind of silly. There is no real use of this word in the Bible. When you ask your average joe what Mysticism means, they will think witches and junk. But again, we are living in the last days and the lines are being blurred to accept darkness and evil. New Age has made it’s way already into the church and I believe that is wrong.
 
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Well, you're entitled to your opinion, I suppose. But be careful with that experience -- gain too much and we might have to start calling you a christian mystic :idea:

Name calling does not make a thing true. Any experience a Christian has should be in line with what God’s Word (the Bible) says. Anything outside of that is going beyond God’s will and authority. Any experience with God by way of prayer should be according to God’s Word.

Words like “mystic” or “mysticism” conjures up witches and evil. So I am not exactly sure how that works in Christianity or in following Jesus Christ. Sure, there are those who blur the lines with these kinds of words, but I am not into being lukewarm or blurring the lines. I am for following what the Bible says and following Jesus and not in doing my own thing. We are either playing ball on God’s terms or we are doing our own thing. In the end, we are all going to have to give an account to the Lord Jesus Christ Himself for what we have done here. Can we honestly say we followed Him according to what He said? Or are we following what others desire us to do instead? Is mysticism or new age practices the way of Christ? For me, the Bible is my final Word of authority and not men because the Bible has proven ten times over to be the Word of God that is divinely inspired. No other book or church, or set of humans has proven to be of divine origin. They are flawed. Thus, they are not trustworthy like the Bible (Which is perfect).

So I will follow Jesus and His Word and nothing else.
Anything else by comparison is just spiritual dog food.
 
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When it is just you, God, and the Bible, it will lead to correct fellowship because the Bible teaches to have fellowship with other like minded Scripture focused believers.

As for the word “mysticism:”.

While it may appear to be tied to being used in the faith, it also has a negative meaning that should be avoided.

According to Eytmology Online it says this about mysticism:

Meaning "pertaining to occult practices or ancient religions" is recorded by 1610s. That of "hidden from or obscure to human knowledge or comprehension" is by 1630s.

What exactly do you mean by Mysticism? Labyrinths? Contemplative prayer? Mindless chanting, and lighting candles? Note: Jesus condemns mindless repetition. Can your view of Mysticism be misunderstood by others as New Age practices?

Generally when I refer to a mystic, it refers to a person who is of the dark arts and not a Christian. It would be like a person saying there is a thing such as a round square or something. It doesn’t make any sense. Granted, there are people trying to mix and match things in this life. There is a lady on YouTube who says she is a Christian Witch. This clearly is a Christian mystic and they would be in the wrong for sure. This is why to say mysticism in a positive way is kind of silly. There is no real use of this word in the Bible. When you ask your average joe what Mysticism means, they will think witches and junk. But again, we are living in the last days and the lines are being blurred to accept darkness and evil. New Age has made it’s way already into the church and I believe that is wrong.

Winfried Corduan says you're wrong. So, that's that.
 
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Fervent

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And this kind of thing has been the one thing that has bothered me most in my mind and heart: that Christians often just go at each other, making digs at each other, often making little effort to understand one another, pushing for precedence among other Christians for influence, and sometimes, even burning each other at the stake, condemning each other with a plethora of invectives about how one or the other is "going to hell" because there's some kind of disagreement.

And I've always wondered, "Why does this have to go on to this extent"?
It's largely the marriage between Christianity and secular authority that has bred such quarrels. People who have no love for Christ are attracted to the church because they see the authority of the pulpit which was made even more attractive when the church essentially controlled the state. Squabbles over land and crown took on theological import in order to enlist the zealous and declare that it was the cause of God that the land should belong to our conclusion. Of course, there have been conflicts that were legitemately based on theological disagreements most of the time it has been a secular authority seizing upon a dispute as a means of elevating their cause. When it's not that, it's usually men falling in love with their traditions and not recognizing the difference between an interpretation that has been handed down and the word of God itself.

There has to be a point where it is just you, God, and the Bible. Nothing else will bring you any spiritual peace or satisfaction in this life except the Lord Jesus and His Word. Christian Mysticism is not the way, friend. Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. I would encourage all to follow Him, and His words alone and nothing else. But in my experience, most want the Burger King way, and not the way of Yahweh.
Perhaps, but there also must be a point where we are accountable to the community. God has called us to be of one mind in community, not to a life of hermitage.
 
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coffee4u

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Perhaps, but there also must be a point where we are accountable to the community. God has called us to be of one mind in community, not to a life of hermitage.

He is not talking about hermitage since the Bible encourages meeting together.
Hebrews 10:25

25 not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.


But rather knowing scripture as it contains the guardrails for the Christian life, not good books or other peoples opinions. That you will quickly recognize wolves if you have a good grasp on scripture.
Acts 20:29
I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock.
If you have no idea of sound teaching how will you recognize the wolves? Good sermons all help, but unless you know scripture you won't recognize what a good sermon vs a bad sermon even is.


Ephesians 4:14
Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of people in their deceitful scheming.
 
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Winfried Corduan says you're wrong. So, that's that.

What does he have to do with the Bible? Is he above what God’s Word says?
My authority is the Bible and not a man. So there is that.
 
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He is not talking about hermitage since the Bible encourages meeting together.
Hebrews 10:25

25 not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.


But rather knowing scripture as it contains the guardrails for the Christian life, not good books or other peoples opinions. That you will quickly recognize wolves if you have a good grasp on scripture.
Acts 20:29
I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock.
If you have no idea of sound teaching how will you recognize the wolves? Good sermons all help, but unless you know scripture you won't recognize what a good sermon vs a bad sermon even is.


Ephesians 4:14
Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of people in their deceitful scheming.
I saw his follow up post after. Having an understanding of Scripture is definitely central to the Christian life, but interpretation isn't a lone effort so failure to expose exegesis to community understandings leaves open the possibility of erroneously clinging to a bad interpretation. As for the issue of mysticism, historic practices serve to give us some ideas of guidelines since the limits and intents are more likely to be understood by those closer in culture than we are, especially in the distinction between occult practices and legitimate expressions of spirituality which both may fall under the heading of "mysticism."
 
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Perhaps, but there also must be a point where we are accountable to the community. God has called us to be of one mind in community, not to a life of hermitage.

As another poster pointed out, the Bible teaches fellowship. So yes, this is important. But if everyone around you has forsaken you, or betrayed you or died, what do you have? You have God, and His Word. These things are above anything else. Nothing else truly matters in this life. Granted, we should seek to love all. But again, when we reach a season in our lives or time when all have seemed to leave, we have God and His Word. They are our go to source. Our comfort. Our true love. Our everything. For without God we can do nothing. We cannot even love correctly without Him, and His beautiful Word.
 
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I am intrinsically prone to mysticism where previously if I was having a bad day God was mad at me or a good day God was happy with me. But when I base my mysticism on His Word & sacraments I’m much more stable in faith and life.
 
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I saw his follow up post after. Having an understanding of Scripture is definitely central to the Christian life, but interpretation isn't a lone effort so failure to expose exegesis to community understandings leaves open the possibility of erroneously clinging to a bad interpretation.

I don’t think any good Christian will cut themselves off from desiring fellowship unless they have serious trust issues. But we are living in the last days and finding believers who truly want to follow Jesus as we see in the pages of the New Testament is difficult to say the least. Yes, I have found a few friends in Christ that I have fellowship with on occasion. But the point is that it would not surprise me if this kind of thing would become less and less as the times get darker and darker (See: 2 Timothy 3:1-9).

I also think it is natural that Christians will seek out what other believers have to say on various biblical topics, as well. I remember one time searching like a hundred or so Christian articles in order to reconcile the humanity of Christ with His deity. So I fully understand that there is comparing Scripture with Scripture, praying for the understanding, looking at the context, etc. In fact, there is so much more to the art of understanding God’s Word than even these things. But God guides us ultimately to understand what His Word says, but we have to be open to it. Sadly, many do not accept everything that is taught within God’s Word because of their own preferences and biases, or denominational traditions (or beliefs).

You said:
As for the issue of mysticism, historic practices serve to give us some ideas of guidelines since the limits and intents are more likely to be understood by those closer in culture than we are, especially in the distinction between occult practices and legitimate expressions of spirituality which both may fall under the heading of "mysticism."

Our authority is the Bible and not men, right?
So if that is the case, I would prefer to use terms that the Bible uses instead.
I know certain Christians may have tossed the words “mystic” or “mysticism” around as if it is okay and good in how they define things, but the problem is that the word today generally conjures up evil and witches in the mind of many people, too. We as believers are called to be holy and separate from this world and not to co-mingle with it. We are in the world but we are not of the world. If you mention the word “mysticism” to a couple of hundred people on the street, the majority of them are not going to think Christianity but they are going to think of magicians, witches, and the dark arts. So it is best to avoid this word altogether. Even certain words change with the passage of time. I would not use certain words in the past that were once acceptable to use today because I do not want people to get the wrong idea. That’s what I am getting at here when I mention words like “mysticism.” It has a negative effect and not generally a good one. Generally even in Christianity if one were to read the articles, Christian mysticism and it’s negative new age practices tends to treat the Bible as second fiddle and make the believer to focus on his experiences over what the Bible says. For the Christian mystic, the experience can take the driver’s seat at the expense of God’s Word at times. The Bible just sort of fits in the Christian mystic’s life or lifestyle when it is convenient for them.
 
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I don’t think any good Christian will cut themselves off from desiring fellowship unless they have serious trust issues. But we are living in the last days and finding believers who truly want to follow Jesus as we see in the pages of the New Testament is difficult to say the least. Yes, I have found a few friends in Christ that I have fellowship with on occasion. But the point is that it would not surprise me if this kind of thing would become less and less as the times get darker and darker (See: 2 Timothy 3:1-9).

I also think it is natural that Christians will seek out what other believers have to say on various biblical topics, as well. I remember one time searching like a hundred or so Christian articles in order to reconcile the humanity of Christ with His deity. So I fully understand that there is comparing Scripture with Scripture, praying for the understanding, looking at the context, etc. In fact, there is so much more to the art of understanding God’s Word than even these things. But God guides us ultimately to understand what His Word says, but we have to be open to it. Sadly, many do not accept everything that is taught within God’s Word because of their own preferences and biases, or denominational traditions (or beliefs).
Yes, understanding God's word entails a lot. More than any one of us is capable of on our own, and much that has been tread through over the centuries of faithful transmission and discussion. Which I'll expand on below.


Our authority is the Bible and not men, right?
So if that is the case, I would prefer to use terms that the Bible uses instead.
I know certain Christians may have tossed the word mystic or mysticism around as if it is okay and good in how they define things, but the problem is that the word today generally conjures up evil and witches in the mind of many people, too. We as believers are called to be holy and separate from this world and not to co-mingle with it. We are in the world but we are not of the world. If you mention the word “mysticism” to a couple of hundred people on the street, the majority of them are not going to think Christianity but they are going to think of magicians, witches, and the dark arts. So it is best to avoid this word altogether. Even certain words change with the passage of time. I would not use certain words in the past that were once acceptable to use today because I do not want people to get the wrong idea. That’s what I am getting at here when I mention words like “mysticism.” It has a negative effect and not generally a good one. Generally even in Christianity if one were to read the articles, Christian mysticism and it’s negative new age practices tends to treat the Bible as second fiddle and make the believer to focus on his experiences over what the Bible says. For the Christian mystic, the experience can take the driver’s seat at the expense of God’s Word at times. The Bible just sort of fits in the Christian mystic’s life or lifestyle when it is convenient for them.
Over the centuries terminology is often invented to express things that are present within the Bible, but that the Bible does not coin a term for. I'm not sure I agree with the images you are conjuring up from mysticism, though occasionally practitioners of the occult adopt the term because it is mostly innocuous. Mystical traditions have always been present within Biblical religion, where the idea of mystic is separated from more "natural" modes of inquiry. Ultimately, to me, it's a question of what practices are being employed and what the end is. Meditation on Scripture, contemplative prayer, lectio divina, spiritual songs, and other mystical tools are well within Biblical warrant.
 
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Yes, understanding God's word entails a lot. More than any one of us is capable of on our own, and much that has been tread through over the centuries of faithful transmission and discussion. Which I'll expand on below.



Over the centuries terminology is often invented to express things that are present within the Bible, but that the Bible does not coin a term for. I'm not sure I agree with the images you are conjuring up from mysticism, though occasionally practitioners of the occult adopt the term because it is mostly innocuous. Mystical traditions have always been present within Biblical religion, where the idea of mystic is separated from more "natural" modes of inquiry. Ultimately, to me, it's a question of what practices are being employed and what the end is. Meditation on Scripture, contemplative prayer, lectio divina, spiritual songs, and other mystical tools are well within Biblical warrant.

Again, in the world of being a Bible alone believer: There is no such thing as Christian mysticism. It’s not a word mentioned in the Bible, and the practices used by Christian mystics falls under new age practices. So it’s not biblical. You can add it as a tradition if you like, but you cannot say it is truly biblical because it is not in the Bible.

Take for example your mention of contemplative prayer. It’s not biblical.

https://www.gotquestions.org/contemplative-prayer.html

Remember, faith comes by hearing, and hearing the Word of God.
It’s not faith comes by doing our own thing outside of what the Bible says.
 
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Petros2015

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In the interest of dispelling misinformation

Thanks. Mysticism had an older, deeper meaning associated with humility, and I really like the vid you posted. What a relief to finally get pigeon-holed. Now at least I make sense to me.
 
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Petros2015

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Remember, faith comes by hearing, and hearing the Word of God.

(Romans 10 - KJV)
"17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."*

*Minor editorial correction by the mystic in residence ;)
 
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2PhiloVoid

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What does he have to do with the Bible?
Well, if you're going to ask that question, then you also need to ask the other question: What do you have to do with the Bible?

Is he above what God’s Word says?
This kind of question really shouldn't be posed as a counter until you know what it is you're attempting to counter. As yet, you don't, and I'm supposing that where an effort could be made, you won't. But, oh well.

My authority is the Bible and not a man. So there is that.
Ok. Fine. My authority is God Himself through Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit, and I affirm that the Bible is His Word! Does my saying this make me more spiritual?

But at the same time, if you don't need "man," or the rest of the Church, then I suppose that when it's just "You, the Bible and God," you don't need any other books whatsoever, right? It's always and consistently and only "You, the Bible and God," right?

Here's the thing. This whole come-back on your part is a digression. All I'm attempting to do is to indicate to you that the term "mysticism" is polyvalent and has different denotations (and thus attending connotations) depending on how it's used and what exactly we 'mean' when we use it.

I understand full well that there is a New Age kind of mysticism, and as far as I can tell, no Christians I know of who are worth their saltiness will think New Age mysticism is all that grand.
 
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Again, in the world of being a Bible alone believer: There is no such thing as Christian mysticism. It’s not a word mentioned in the Bible, and the practices used by Christian mystics falls under new age practices. So it’s not biblical. You can add it as a tradition if you like, but you cannot say it is truly biblical because it is not in the Bible.

Take for example your mention of contemplative prayer. It’s not biblical.

https://www.gotquestions.org/contemplative-prayer.html

Remember, faith comes by hearing, and hearing the Word of God.
It’s not faith comes by doing our own thing outside of what the Bible says.
The issue is the claim of being a "Bible alone believer" doesn't really seem supportable to me. Your interpretations of the Bible are all informed by something, whether that be your cultural background, philosophical dispositions, denominational tradition and on and on. Holding to the vocabulary of English translations isn't really necessary for having a viewpoint centered on the Bible. Especially because then the question becomes when does such an insistence stop? Why allow for English translation at all, and instead insist on reading it in the original languages? And if we go back to that step, we can't accept modern scripts and so have to go back to the oldest versions meaning Hebrew with no vowel points and Greek in all caps with no spaces. After all, that's how the Bible was originally written. So why is translating to an entirely different language acceptable, but using words that are within that language but developed to discuss broad topics that the Bible discusses not acceptable?
 
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