God's unconditional promises to the ancient nation of Israel

[BABerean2]

James 2:1 EXPLICITLY says whom it was addressed to.

Jas 5:13 Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms.
Jas 5:14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:

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[Biblewriter]

Jas 5:13 Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms.
Jas 5:14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:

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So - You are pretending that this epistle was NOT addressed to the group EXPLICITLY named in the salutation?

 

[BABerean2]

So - You are pretending that this epistle was NOT addressed to the group EXPLICITLY named in the salutation?

Based on the reference to "your faith" in James 1:3, and the reference to the "church" in the passage above, that would be you who is pretending.


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[Dan Perez]

So - You are pretending that this epistle was NOT addressed to the group EXPLICITLY named in the salutation?

And when looking at James 1:1 then Greek words TO THE / HO is specific pointing to the 12 tribes and that is what the DEFINITE ARTICLE , ( THE ) is pointing to , the 12 TRIBES .

It also means they , the 12 tribes are scattered abroad and is in the DATIVE CASE OF POINT OF REFERENCE . and not pointing to Gentiles .

What you wrote above is correct and specifically to Israel .

dan p

 

[Biblewriter]

And when looking at James 1:1 then Greek words TO THE / HO is specific pointing to the 12 tribes and that is what the DEFINITE ARTICLE , ( THE ) is pointing to , the 12 TRIBES .

It also means they , the 12 tribes are scattered abroad and is in the DATIVE CASE OF POINT OF REFERENCE . and not pointing to Gentiles .

What you wrote above is correct and specifically to Israel .

dan p

I already pointed out that the details of the epistle clearly reveal that the intended audience of the letter was the believers in Christ among the twelve tribes. But that is NOT who it was addressed to. It was,as you proved, ADDRESSED to, and ONLY to, "the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad."

 

[Dan Perez]

I already pointed out that the details of the epistle clearly reveal that the intended audience of the letter was the believers in Christ among the twelve tribes. But that is NOT who it was addressed to. It was,as you proved, ADDRESSED to, and ONLY to, "the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad."

And amen brother .

dan p

 

[BABerean2]

I already pointed out that the details of the epistle clearly reveal that the intended audience of the letter was the believers in Christ among the twelve tribes. But that is NOT who it was addressed to. It was,as you proved, ADDRESSED to, and ONLY to, "the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad."

And who is being addressed in the passage below?


Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Act 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
Act 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

=====================

Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, modern Dispensational Theology falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.


PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENTS
with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.
F. Roy Coad (Brethren Historian) pages 10-26
http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418


Origin of the Pretrib Rapture Doctrine
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.4windsfellowships.net/articles/rapture_23.pdf


Pretribulationist Revisionism
(Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints)
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.4windsfellowships.net/articles/rapture_22.pdf


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[Biblewriter]

[QUOTE="BABerean2, post: 76251056, member: 353202"
PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENTS
with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.
F. Roy Coad (Brethren Historian) pages 10-26
http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418


Origin of the Pretrib Rapture Doctrine
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.4windsfellowships.net/articles/rapture_23.pdf


Pretribulationist Revisionism
(Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints)
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.4windsfellowships.net/articles/rapture_22.pdf


.[/QUOTE]
Almost every claim in these false articles has been conclusively disproved, in article after article. Yet some people hate the truth so much that they cling to these lies.

 

[BABerean2]

[QUOTE="BABerean2, post: 76251056, member: 353202"
PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENTS
with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.
F. Roy Coad (Brethren Historian) pages 10-26
http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418


Origin of the Pretrib Rapture Doctrine
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.4windsfellowships.net/articles/rapture_23.pdf


Pretribulationist Revisionism
(Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints)
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.4windsfellowships.net/articles/rapture_22.pdf


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Almost every claim in these false articles has been conclusively disproved, in article after article. Yet some people hate the truth so much that they cling to these lies.[/QUOTE]


"It may come as a surprise to most pre-Trib prophecy students that the post-Trib position (in its primitive form) is the oldest point of view."


The quotation above is from the book "Will You Escape The Tribulation? RAPTURE [Under Attack]", by Tim LaHaye, copyright 1998, Page 197


Tim LaHaye was the coauthor of the #1 National Best Seller LEFT BEHIND.


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[Biblewriter]

"It may come as a surprise to most pre-Trib prophecy students that the post-Trib position (in its primitive form) is the oldest point of view."


The quotation above is from the book "Will You Escape The Tribulation? RAPTURE [Under Attack]", by Tim LaHaye, copyright 1998, Page 197.

+ which is EXACTLY what was PORIED in my book "Ancient Dispensational Truth." This was taught in the very oldestsurviving Christian commentary on Bible prophecy of any significant length, AND in the very oldest surviving commentary on the book of Revelation.

Also, the doctrine that the seventieth week of Daniel's prophecy of the seventy weeks would be fulfilled in the end times was taught in the same very oldest surviving Christian commentary on Bible prophecy of any significant length AND in the very oldest surviving Christian commentary on the book of Daniel.

 

[BABerean2]

+ which is EXACTLY what was PORIED in my book "Ancient Dispensational Truth." This was taught in the very oldestsurviving Christian commentary on Bible prophecy of any significant length, AND in the very oldest surviving commentary on the book of Revelation.

Also, the doctrine that the seventieth week of Daniel's prophecy of the seventy weeks would be fulfilled in the end times was taught in the same very oldest surviving Christian commentary on Bible prophecy of any significant length AND in the very oldest surviving Christian commentary on the book of Daniel.

"It may come as a surprise to most pre-Trib prophecy students that the post-Trib position (in its primitive form) is the oldest point of view."


The quotation above is from the book "Will You Escape The Tribulation? RAPTURE [Under Attack]", by Tim LaHaye, copyright 1998, Page 197

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Are you telling us you proved the post-Trib viewpoint is the oldest?

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[Dan Perez]

"It may come as a surprise to most pre-Trib prophecy students that the post-Trib position (in its primitive form) is the oldest point of view."


The quotation above is from the book "Will You Escape The Tribulation? RAPTURE [Under Attack]", by Tim LaHaye, copyright 1998, Page 197

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Are you telling us you proved the post-Trib viewpoint is the oldest?

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And when reading 2 Thess 2:1 it says , on account of the COMING / PAROUSIA isnthe correct Greek word to use as nthe word RAPTURE is not a Greek word .

The view point witten by Paul is a PRE-TRIBULATION coming as written in verse 3 that has to be a DEPARTURE should come FIRST and the Man of Sin should be revealed , 2 Thess 2:3 .

dan p

 

[BABerean2]

And when reading 2 Thess 2:1 it says , on account of the COMING / PAROUSIA isnthe correct Greek word to use as nthe word RAPTURE is not a Greek word .

The view point witten by Paul is a PRE-TRIBULATION coming as written in verse 3 that has to be a DEPARTURE should come FIRST and the Man of Sin should be revealed , 2 Thess 2:3 .

dan p

G646
ἀποστασία
apostasia
ap-os-tas-ee'-ah
Feminine of the same as G647; defection from truth (properly the state), (“apostasy”): - falling away, forsake.
Total KJV occurrences: 2


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[Clare73]

And when reading 2 Thess 2:1 it says , on account of the COMING / PAROUSIA isnthe correct Greek word to use as nthe word RAPTURE is not a Greek word .

The English "rapture" is from the Latin translation "rapio" for the Greek "parousia"--catching up of the saints.
The fifth-century Latin translation of the Bible by Jerome was the only translation of the Greek until the KJV English translation.

The view point witten by Paul is a PRE-TRIBULATION coming as written in verse 3 that has to be a DEPARTURE should come FIRST and the Man of Sin should be revealed , 2 Thess 2:3 .

dan p

 

[Dan Perez]

G646
ἀποστασία
apostasia
ap-os-tas-ee'-ah
Feminine of the same as G647; defection from truth (properly the state), (“apostasy”): - falling away, forsake.
Total KJV occurrences: 2


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And I will present why 2 Thess 2:1-3 are in context .
\,


In verse one the Greek word COMING / PAROUSIA means our gathering Together unto HIM , Christ .

In verse 2 , many believedbthat the COMING of Christ had come and that they were left behind .

And in the same verse , Paul tells them NOT to be shaken in Mind .

Or to be troubled

Neither by spirit , Nor by LETTER as from US ( PAUL )

as that the DAY of CHRIST is at hand and still taking about the CHRIST , COMING / PAROUSIA for the BODY of CHRIST ,

So , Pauls says , let no man deceive you by any means for the DEPARTURE FIRST , and that man of SIN be revealed , the son of perdition .

It has NOTHING to do about FALLING from the FAITH as that has already happened for the last 2000 years .

The Greek word word EXCEPT / ME is a DISJUNCTIVE PARTICILE NEGATIVE and and means EXCEPTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT and means EXCEPTTTTTTTTTTTTTT.

There are 4 Greek words that are a DISJUCTIVE PARTICLE NEGATIVE and most of them are used , like the words , ME , UN , Mn , OV .

If use see the words , NOT , NEITHER , LEST are problability , DISJUCTIVE .

Verse 4 has this man of sin is seen is ncalled God , or worshipped as God , or that is worshipped as God and sitteth in the TEMPLE of God showing himself that he is God .

Has that happened , no .

dan p

 

[BABerean2]

It has NOTHING to do about FALLING from the FAITH as that has already happened for the last 2000 years .

G646
ἀποστασία
apostasia
ap-os-tas-ee'-ah
Feminine of the same as G647; defection from truth (properly the state), (“apostasy”): - falling away, forsake.
Total KJV occurrences: 2


Pretribbers have made your claim in recent years in an attempt to make their pretrib removal of the Church doctrine work.

If you have to redefine words to make your doctrine work, you have revealed the doctrine for what it really is.


Pretribulationist Revisionism
(Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints)
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.4windsfellowships.net/articles/rapture_22.pdf


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[Clare73]

And I will present why 2 Thess 2:1-3 are in context.
In verse one the Greek word COMING / PAROUSIA means our gathering Together unto HIM , Christ .

In verse 2 , many believedbthat the COMING of Christ had come and that they were left behind.

The problem with that notion is for that to be true, it would mean they thought Paul had missed it too! That's absurd, they thought no such thing.

For it was Silas and Timothy who reported back to Paul the continued misconception (regarding the return of Jesus) which their delivery of 1 Thess did not squelch. So if they continued to believe, after receiving 1 Thess that the rapture had already occurred, then Paul must have also been left behind in order to be able to write 1 Thess, as well as Silas and Timothy who delivered the letter.
That is absurd.
No. ..the Thessalonians did not think they had missed the rapture. Rather

Paul was writing to the Thessalonians, not to correct their view that the rapture had occurred, but to correct their view that the rapture was imminent (2:3), as can be clearly seen by his emphasis on what must occur (2:3-8) before there will be a rapture (2:1), and his exhortation to get back to work instead of idly waitng for an imminent rapture (3:10-12).

And in the same verse , Paul tells them NOT to be shaken in Mind .
Or to be troubled
Neither by spirit , Nor by LETTER as from US ( PAUL )
as that the DAY of CHRIST is at hand and still taking about the CHRIST , COMING / PAROUSIA for the BODY of CHRIST ,

So , Pauls says , let no man deceive you by any means for the DEPARTURE FIRST , and that man of SIN be revealed , the son of perdition .

It has NOTHING to do about FALLING from the FAITH as that has already happened for the last 2000 years .

The Greek word translated as "DEPARTURE" in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is apostasia, which is the English "apostasy". . .which in the NT is used of religious apostasy, and here signifies falling away from the faith.

The Greek word word EXCEPT / ME is a DISJUNCTIVE PARTICILE NEGATIVE and and means EXCEPTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT and means EXCEPTTTTTTTTTTTTTT.

There are 4 Greek words that are a DISJUCTIVE PARTICLE NEGATIVE and most of them are used , like the words , ME , UN , Mn , OV .

If use see the words , NOT , NEITHER , LEST are problability , DISJUCTIVE .

Verse 4 has this man of sin is seen is ncalled God , or worshipped as God , or that is worshipped as God and sitteth in the TEMPLE of God showing himself that he is God .

Has that happened , no .

 

[klutedavid]

Here are just some pf the places where God EXPLICITLY and UNCONDITIONALLY promised the ancient nation of Israel that He would bring them back to their ancient homeland, and would bless them there.

Two things need to be noticed about these promises. One is that they involve absolutely ALL of that ancient nation, and that the promised return is promised to take place AFTER the Lord returns, not BEFORE He returns.

“For I will take you from among the nations, gather you out of all countries, and bring you into your own land. Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them. Then you shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; you shall be My people, and I will be your God. I will deliver you from all your uncleannesses. I will call for the grain and multiply it, and bring no famine upon you." ' " (Ezekiel 36:24-29)

This was not just implied a time or two, but was repeatedly and unconditionally promised, in plain, clear words, as we see in the following passages.

“ ‘I will gather the remnant of My flock out of all countries where I have driven them, and bring them back to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and increase. I will set up shepherds over them who will feed them; and they shall fear no more, nor be dismayed, nor shall they be lacking,’ says the LORD. ‘Behold, the days are coming,’ says the LORD, ‘That I will raise to David a Branch of righteousness; A King shall reign and prosper, And execute judgment and righteousness in the earth. In His days Judah will be saved, And Israel will dwell safely; Now this is His name by which He will be called: THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.
“ ‘Therefore, behold, the days are coming,’ says the LORD, ‘that they shall no longer say, “As the LORD lives who brought up the children of Israel from the land of Egypt,” but, “As the LORD lives who brought up and led the descendants of the house of Israel from the north country and from all the countries where I had driven them.” And they shall dwell in their own land.’ ” (Jeremiah 23:3-8)

“ ‘I will cause the captives of Judah and the captives of Israel to return, and will rebuild those places as at the first. I will cleanse them from all their iniquity by which they have sinned against Me, and I will pardon all their iniquities by which they have sinned and by which they have transgressed against Me. Then it shall be to Me a name of joy, a praise, and an honor before all nations of the earth, who shall hear all the good that I do to them; they shall fear and tremble for all the goodness and all the prosperity that I provide for it.’
“Thus says the LORD: ‘Again there shall be heard in this place--of which you say, “It is desolate, without man and without beast”--in the cities of Judah, in the streets of Jerusalem that are desolate, without man and without inhabitant and without beast, the voice of joy and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom and the voice of the bride, the voice of those who will say: “Praise the LORD of hosts, For the LORD is good, For His mercy endures forever” -- and of those who will bring the sacrifice of praise into the house of the LORD. For I will cause the captives of the land to return as at the first,' says the LORD.
“Thus says the LORD of hosts: ‘In this place which is desolate, without man and without beast, and in all its cities, there shall again be a dwelling place of shepherds causing their flocks to lie down. In the cities of the mountains, in the cities of the lowland, in the cities of the South, in the land of Benjamin, in the places around Jerusalem, and in the cities of Judah, the flocks shall again pass under the hands of him who counts them,’ says the LORD.” (Jeremiah 33:7-13)

“But I will bring back Israel to his home, And he shall feed on Carmel and Bashan; His soul shall be satisfied on Mount Ephraim and Gilead. In those days and in that time," says the LORD, "The iniquity of Israel shall be sought, but there shall be none; And the sins of Judah, but they shall not be found; For I will pardon those whom I preserve.” (Jeremiah 50:19-20)

“ ‘For thus says the Lord GOD: ‘Indeed I Myself will search for My sheep and seek them out. As a shepherd seeks out his flock on the day he is among his scattered sheep, so will I seek out My sheep and deliver them from all the places where they were scattered on a cloudy and dark day. And I will bring them out from the peoples and gather them from the countries, and will bring them to their own land; I will feed them on the mountains of Israel, in the valleys and in all the inhabited places of the country. I will feed them in good pasture, and their fold shall be on the high mountains of Israel. There they shall lie down in a good fold and feed in rich pasture on the mountains of Israel. I will feed My flock, and I will make them lie down,’ says the Lord GOD. ‘I will seek what was lost and bring back what was driven away, bind up the broken and strengthen what was sick; but I will destroy the fat and the strong, and feed them in judgment.’ ” (Ezekiel 34:11-16)

“Indeed, what have you to do with Me, O Tyre and Sidon, and all the coasts of Philistia? Will you retaliate against Me? But if you retaliate against Me, Swiftly and speedily I will return your retaliation upon your own head; Because you have taken My silver and My gold, And have carried into your temples My prized possessions. Also the people of Judah and the people of Jerusalem You have sold to the Greeks, That you may remove them far from their borders.
“Behold, I will raise them Out of the place to which you have sold them, And will return your retaliation upon your own head.” (Joel 3:4-7)

“ ‘I will bring back the captives of My people Israel; They shall build the waste cities and inhabit them; They shall plant vineyards and drink wine from them; They shall also make gardens and eat fruit from them. I will plant them in their land, And no longer shall they be pulled up From the land I have given them,’ Says the LORD your God.” (Amos 9:14-15)

Many imagine that this promise of a restoration of Israel to her ancient homeland was fulfilled in the return from Babylon. But that return did not include the ancient sub-kingdom of “Ephraim,” which, even to this day, has never returned. The return from Babylon was only the ancient sub-kingdom of Judah, and only a very small part of that. For “Altogether the whole assembly was forty-two thousand three hundred and sixty, besides their male and female servants, of whom there were seven thousand three hundred and thirty-seven; and they had two hundred and forty-five men and women singers.” (Nehemiah 7:66-67) That is a total of only forty-nine thousand nine hundred and ninety two persons. By comparison, 2 Chronicles 17:12-19 informs us that, in the days of Jehoshaphat, the army of Judah was one million, one hundred and sixty thousand men, to say nothing of those that were not in the army. Compare this very small return with the return that God had promised:

“And you, son of man, prophesy to the mountains of Israel, and say, ‘O mountains of Israel, hear the word of the LORD! Thus says the Lord GOD: “Because the enemy has said of you, 'Aha! The ancient heights have become our possession,” ’ therefore prophesy, and say, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD: “Because they made you desolate and swallowed you up on every side, so that you became the possession of the rest of the nations, and you are taken up by the lips of talkers and slandered by the people”--therefore, O mountains of Israel, hear the word of the Lord GOD! Thus says the Lord GOD to the mountains, the hills, the rivers, the valleys, the desolate wastes, and the cities that have been forsaken, which became plunder and mockery to the rest of the nations all around--therefore thus says the Lord GOD: ‘Surely I have spoken in My burning jealousy against the rest of the nations and against all Edom, who gave My land to themselves as a possession, with whole-hearted joy and spiteful minds, in order to plunder its open country.’ ” Therefore prophesy concerning the land of Israel, and say to the mountains, the hills, the rivers, and the valleys, “Thus says the Lord GOD: ‘Behold, I have spoken in My jealousy and My fury, because you have borne the shame of the nations.’ Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: ‘I have raised My hand in an oath that surely the nations that are around you shall bear their own shame.
“But you, O mountains of Israel, you shall shoot forth your branches and yield your fruit to My people Israel, for they are about to come. For indeed I am for you, and I will turn to you, and you shall be tilled and sown. I will multiply men upon you, all the hiuse of Israel, all of it; and the cities shall be inhabited and the ruins rebuilt.” ’ ” (Ezekiel 36:1-10)

Here, we need to notice the words, “all the house of Israel, all of it.” In the Hebrew text, the word “כֹּל,” “kol” in our alphabet, is doubled, stressing that the meaning is absolutely all of “the house of Israel.” Yet the return from Babylon was only a very small part of “the house of Judah.”

We also need to notice that the promised return was to “the mountains of Israel,” along with “the hills, the rivers, the valleys, the desolate wastes, and the cities that have been forsaken, which became plunder and mockery to the rest of the nations all around.” (Ezekiel 36:4) And eleven chapters later, God went so far as to define the future borders of that land.

“Thus says the Lord GOD: ‘These are the borders by which you shall divide the land as an inheritance among the twelve tribes of Israel. Joseph shall have two portions. You shall inherit it equally with one another; for I raised My hand in an oath to give it to your fathers, and this land shall fall to you as your inheritance. This shall be the border of the land on the north: from the Great Sea, by the road to Hethlon, as one goes to Zedad, Hamath, Berothah, Sibraim (which is between the border of Damascus and the border of Hamath), to Hazar Hatticon (which is on the border of Hauran). Thus the boundary shall be from the Sea to Hazar Enan, the border of Damascus; and as for the north, northward, it is the border of Hamath. This is the north side. On the east side you shall mark out the border from between Hauran and Damascus, and between Gilead and the land of Israel, along the Jordan, and along the eastern side of the sea. This is the east side. The south side, toward the South, shall be from Tamar to the waters of Meribah by Kadesh, along the brook to the Great Sea. This is the south side, toward the South. The west side shall be the Great Sea, from the southern boundary until one comes to a point opposite Hamath. This is the west side.’ ” (Ezekiel 47:13-20)

This is nothing less than the definition of a specific plot of real estate, first by description (chapter 36) and then by precisely specifying its borders. (chapter 47) Some people demand why we are so interested in a mere plot of real estate on the other side of the world. And the answer, of course, is, because God is so interested in it. We can hardly overstress the fact that God has explicitly promised this specific plot of real estate to a particular “nation.” And that promise is unconditional.

But in spite of all these explicitly stated scriptures, there are many who imagine that this is only symbolic language. That when the prophetic scriptures say “Israel,” they mean “the church,” and when they speak of “the land,” they mean “heaven.” Major sources of this erroneous notion that we have not yet examined are the scripture that says “Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, ‘In you all the nations shall be blessed.’ So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.” (Galatians 3:7-9) And another that says, “For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. For if those who are of the law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise made of no effect, because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression. Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all.” (Romans 4:13-16)

Many reason that, since these scriptures plainly call those who share “the faith of Abraham,” his “sons,” then , when the prophetic scriptures say “Israel,” they mean “the church.” But the Bible does not say that being a child of Abraham by faith makes a person an Israelite. The concept of being “an Israelite by faith” is not taught anywhere in the Bible. This indeed, seems like a reasonable conclusion. But all such reasoning about the scriptures is dangerous. And this notion, which is nothing but mere human reasoning, leads to a seriously false conclusion, that “the church” is “spiritual Israel,” (a term found nowhere in the entire Bible) and thus, that the promises made to the ancient “nation” of “Israel” actually belong to “the church.” This, as we have seen, is seriously wrong, because it makes God out to be a liar. God did not make these promises to His people generally, but to a specific ancient “nation.” And He promised to give that ancient “nation” a specific plot of real estate.

The problem I have with your interpretation, is that the only way that Israel could be grafted back into the root. Is that Israel, the nation, must believe in Jesus.

Theocratic Israel was grafted out because of unbelief, fact.

Theocratic Israel has not existed for two thousand years, fact.

Twenty first century Israel is a secular nation, no faith, fact.

Either the prophecies concerning ancient, theocratic Israel, are now null and void. Or Israel has a spiritual significance and applies to the church. The prophecies cannot be fulfilled by theocratic Israel, simply because theocratic Israel no longer exists.

 

[Biblewriter]

The problem I have with your interpretation, is that the only way that Israel could be grafted back into the root. Is that Israel, the nation, must believe in Jesus.

Theocratic Israel was grafted out because of unbelief, fact.

Theocratic Israel has not existed for two thousand years, fact.

Twenty first century Israel is a secular nation, no faith, fact.

Either the prophecies concerning ancient, theocratic Israel, are now null and void. Or Israel has a spiritual significance and applies to the church. The prophecies cannot be fulfilled by theocratic Israel, simply because theocratic Israel no longer exists.

You are neglecting the prophecies that explicitly promise that Israel will be restored, not only to her ancient homeland, but to a true faith in her God. These include:


9 Then God said: "Call his name Lo-Ammi, For you are not My people, And I will not be your God.
10 "Yet the number of the children of Israel Shall be as the sand of the sea, Which cannot be measured or numbered. And it shall come to pass In the place where it was said to them, 'You are not My people,' There it shall be said to them, 'You are sons of the living God.'
11 Then the children of Judah and the children of Israel Shall be gathered together, And appoint for themselves one head; And they shall come up out of the land, For great will be the day of Jezreel! Hosea 1:9-11


33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more." Jeremiah 31:33-34

"Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Romans 11:25-29

 

[Clare73]

The problem I have with your interpretation, is that the only way that Israel could be grafted back into the root. Is that Israel, the nation, must believe in Jesus.
Theocratic Israel was grafted out because of unbelief, fact.
Theocratic Israel has not existed for two thousand years, fact.
Twenty first century Israel is a secular nation, no faith, fact.

Either the prophecies concerning ancient, theocratic Israel, are now null and void. Or Israel has a spiritual significance and applies to the church. The prophecies cannot be fulfilled by theocratic Israel, simply because theocratic Israel no longer exists.

Not to mention those particuar prophecies were fulfilled in the return from exile in Babylon, when the walls and temple were rebuilt and the people rededicated themselves to God with much joy in Nehemiah.

That prophecy was fulfilled in a remnant, just as the promise to Abraham (Romans 11:29) is now being fulfilled in a remnant (Romans 11:1-5), who are in the church.