Why are highly educated and trained professionals refusing to vaccinate?

[hislegacy]

No, it is called Dunning Kruger.

But at least we've established you're not doing what I'm doing.

What you think you established is based on the false assumption that I am of low ability.

 

[hislegacy]

This is my biggest problem with Christianity. There is zero moral accountability for Christians and here we have a Christian celebrating having no moral accountability. Flippantly cause pain and suffering of hundreds, rob people blind, and it’s all good. And then people in the religion have the audacity to expect me to give them the benefit of the doubt because they are a Christian. In my experience Christians are no better morally than anyone else and often worse because their religion gives them a “Get Out of Jail Free” card.

And yet, here you are on a Christian Forum. Free to express your thoughts.

Ain't life grand!

 

[hislegacy]

Why on earth would I want to be YOUR friend? You highly overestimate your appeal.

I still like you and think very well of you.

 

[essentialsaltes]

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/ch...vid-vaccine-viral-antivaccine-misinformation/

Interesting read

Yes, a great demolition of antivaxx nonsense.

I'm curious to get your reaction to it, since you read it with such interest.

 

[GOD Shines Forth!]

This is my biggest problem with Christianity. There is zero moral accountability for Christians and here we have a Christian celebrating having no moral accountability. Flippantly cause pain and suffering of hundreds, rob people blind, and it’s all good. And then people in the religion have the audacity to expect me to give them the benefit of the doubt because they are a Christian. In my experience Christians are no better morally than anyone else and often worse because their religion gives them a “Get Out of Jail Free” card.

Them's the breaks!

 

[renniks]

Yes. Injecting yourself with a disinfectant is good medical advice.

Which he also didn't say.

Trump clarified his remarks: “It wouldn’t be through injections, you’re talking about almost a cleaning and sterilization of an area. Maybe it works, maybe it doesn’t work, but it certainly has a big affect if it’s on a stationary object."

 

[GOD Shines Forth!]

Which he also didn't say.

Trump clarified his remarks: “It wouldn’t be through injections, you’re talking about almost a cleaning and sterilization of an area. Maybe it works, maybe it doesn’t work, but it certainly has a big affect if it’s on a stationary object."

Lol, Trump was highly quotable by his detractors. Even if they knew what he meant or didn’t mean, they never let him up for air.

 

[stevil]

I said "probably." But I would add now that it's often pointed out that the opponents of vaccination whom pro-vaxxers frequently characterize as rubes or morons actually are people who've really studied the evidence. Or quite a few of them have done so, at any rate.

I would expect that most anti-vaxxers, chem trail advocates, moon landing deniers have put huge amounts of effort into studying the "evidence"
The problem is that the "evidence" is presented to them is pseudo science, and conspiracy sites etc that can be quite convincing to people who don't know better and don't know how to verify what these sources are telling them.

You've just lost your argument.

I'm not trying to win any argument, just trying to discuss stuff.

But please elaborate, I don't know why you have concluded that I have lost an argument here.

 

[Albion]

Lol, Trump was highly quotable by his detractors. Even if they knew what he meant or didn’t mean, they never let him up for air.

It's true. Some of his most quoted statements are cited by people who tell you what he was saying even though anyone can look at the quote and realize that the meaning was something else.

So here's the question: Does the person misrepresenting the statement do that only because he wants to defame the speaker, OR is he literally unable to read and understand the statement for what it was actually saying?

 

[stevil]

Which he also didn't say.

Trump clarified his remarks: “It wouldn’t be through injections, you’re talking about almost a cleaning and sterilization of an area. Maybe it works, maybe it doesn’t work, but it certainly has a big affect if it’s on a stationary object."

I distinctly hear him saying "Disinfectant by injection inside" (context being "inside the body")

 

[essentialsaltes]

What you think you established is based on the false assumption that I am of low ability.

Are you an expert in vaccines and medicine? You have said you aren't. Therefore, in this context, you have low ability compared to experts.

 

[GreatLakes4Ever]

Them's the breaks!

Yep, Christians can be the worst humans on the face of the earth and it doesn’t matter. It’s why the religion is attractive to psychopaths, narcissists, and charlatans. Say “Jesus is Lord” and continue about your devious ways.

 

[stevil]

And what percentage are left wing all natural medicine types? That's a big movement right there.
Not liking pharmaceutical companies isn't a right wing thing.

Sure, that's another potential cause.
Rather than because they followed and understood the science. But because they have a distrust of science or Pharma or what not.
Modern science is evidence based.
Traditional or "natural" medicines such as Traditional Chinese Medicine is based on philosophy and traditions rather than evidence.

Thanks for bringing that up. My list was not comprehensive, I am happy to add more to the list.

 

[Albion]

I would expect that most anti-vaxxers, chem trail advocates, moon landing deniers have put huge amounts of effort into studying the "evidence"
The problem is that the "evidence" is presented to them is pseudo science, and conspiracy sites etc that can be quite convincing to people who don't know better and don't know how to verify what these sources are telling them.

I'm not trying to win any argument, just trying to discuss stuff.

By spinning out all that nonsense about QAnon, "moon landing deniers," and the like?

Who could take that explantion seriously?

 

[probinson]

Enough for feedstores to run out of product in Jacksonville, Las Vegas, Stanislaus County...

Jacksonville;

A local news station asked an employee at a local Tractor Supply that said they were out. Then checked with a manager that confirmed 3 other local stores were out.

Then they found out that Florida poison control had 39! calls in August about Ivermectin. A "huge" increase from the 74 they had recorded all year to that point, but still pretty insignificant.

Las Vegas;

Again, a local news station reported that ONE feed store (V&V Tack & Feed) was out of Ivermectin and then did the crack reporting of talking to a store associate who "...suspects a lot of her customers aren't using it as intended."

Stanislaus County (emphasis added);

"Justin Lewis, director of the California Poison Control System’s Sacramento Division, said there have been 110 ivermectin-related calls in the past 20 months, and 25 were marked as people calling because they took some form of it to help COVID-19.

Turlock Feed and Livestock Supply has been out of ivermectin for months, a manager said, but couldn’t guarantee this was related to COVID-19 demand.
​

Compelling stuff.

Even the distributors were out of product.

Um, this is just rehashing the same articles you already linked above.

Some of those stories mention huge increases in calls to Poison Control for ivermectin.

Yeah, not so much.

The stories mentioned 39 calls to poison control in Florida and 25 in California. For some context, poison control centers field >100,000 calls per year on Acetaminophen overdoses;

Acetaminophen overdose is the leading cause for calls to Poison Control Centers (>100,000/year) and accounts for more than 56,000 emergency room visits, 2,600 hospitalizations, and an estimated 458 deaths due to acute liver failure each year.

Acetaminophen and the U.S. Acute Liver Failure Study Group: lowering the risks of hepatic failure - PubMed​

The Ivermectin story was hyped up to be something it wasn't, and you apparently fell for it. Sure, there are always people that do dumb things and I'm sure there were some that bought "horse paste" to try to treat themselves, but the idea that people were buying up Ivermectin in large quantities is simply not supported by the fact that a few Tractor Supply stores in Florida and a couple feed stores in Vegas and California ran out of Ivermectin.

 

[probinson]

But if someone says masks should not be worn and they are wrong then I fear for their soul. What would it feel like to wake up one day and realize your vocal error led others to perdition, pain, suffering, illness and possibly death?

Yeah, pretty sure our souls aren't contingent upon whether or not we wear and/or recommend people wear masks.

Melodramatic and hyperbolic nonsense.

 

[rambot]

Which he also didn't say.

Trump clarified his remarks: “It wouldn’t be through injections, you’re talking about almost a cleaning and sterilization of an area. Maybe it works, maybe it doesn’t work, but it certainly has a big affect if it’s on a stationary object."

He said "So supposing we hit the body with a tremendous, whether it's ultraviolet or just very powerful light. And I think you said that hasn't been checked but you're going to test it. Then I said supposing you brought the light inside the body, which you could do, either through the skin or some other way and I think you said you were going to test that, too. Sounds interesting. Then I see the disinfectant, where it knocks it out in a minute, one minute. Is there a way we can do something like that, by injection inside, or almost a cleaning because you see it gets on the lungs and it does a tremendous number on the lungs. So it will be interesting to check that. That you're gonna have to use medical doctors. But it sounds interesting to me."

ROFL! In retrospect, it's the ramblings of a mad man entirely. Kinda funny if it wasn't the elected president of a superpower.

 

[renniks]

Traditional or "natural" medicines such as Traditional Chinese Medicine is based on philosophy and traditions rather than evidence.

Wow...no natural medicine is science based?
In many cases we would be better off with the herb than with that wonder pill the pharmaceutical company advertises to fix whatever ails you, but has 57 side effects including possible death.

 

[rjs330]

The above study is being misapplied as if to infer that COVID vaccines are NOT helping but that's false. It's helping VACCINATED people. It's NOT helping unvaccinated people who are getting sick at high rates.

He which is THEIR choice. You can't force people to undergo medical treatment so they don't get sick. Just like you can't force someone not to smoke, eat fatty foods or drink alcohol.

 

[renniks]

He said "So supposing we hit the body with a tremendous, whether it's ultraviolet or just very powerful light. And I think you said that hasn't been checked but you're going to test it. Then I said supposing you brought the light inside the body, which you could do, either through the skin or some other way and I think you said you were going to test that, too. Sounds interesting. Then I see the disinfectant, where it knocks it out in a minute, one minute. Is there a way we can do something like that, by injection inside, or almost a cleaning because you see it gets on the lungs and it does a tremendous number on the lungs. So it will be interesting to check that. That you're gonna have to use medical doctors. But it sounds interesting to me."

ROFL! In retrospect, it's the ramblings of a mad man entirely. Kinda funny if it wasn't the elected president of a superpower.

And nothing at all about injecting bleach.
And speaking of rambling like a madman, I believe we have that going on in the White House now.

 

[probinson]

There's a lot of data from well-trained professionals who say wearing a mask is effective.

You keep saying this as if it were true, but it's not.

There are mechanistic studies in controlled laboratories that do not take into account behavioral science and the fact that we don't live in a controlled environment. Most of these studies are observational in nature, which sit near the bottom of the evidence pyramid in terms of quality of evidence.

So let's look at what the CDC has to say about face masks in their own systematic review of 10 RCTs spanning 72 years (emphasis added). Since you're such a science-y guy, I'm sure you know that systematic reviews of RCTs sit atop the pyramid in quality of evidence;

One study evaluated the use of masks among pilgrims from Australia during the Hajj pilgrimage and reported no major difference in the risk for laboratory-confirmed influenza virus infection in the control or mask group

...

Our systematic review found no significant effect of face masks on transmission of laboratory-confirmed influenza.

...

The overall reduction in ILI or laboratory-confirmed influenza cases in the face mask group was not significant in either studies

...

None of the household studies reported a significant reduction in secondary laboratory-confirmed influenza virus infections in the face mask group

...

There is limited evidence for their effectiveness in preventing influenza virus transmission either when worn by the infected person for source control or when worn by uninfected persons to reduce exposure. Our systematic review found no significant effect of face masks on transmission of laboratory-confirmed influenza.

...

Proper use of face masks is essential because improper use might increase the risk for transmission

Nonpharmaceutical Measures for Pandemic Influenza in Nonhealthcare Settings—Personal Protective and Environmental Measures​

Interestingly enough, this is exactly what we were told at the beginning of the pandemic... until it became politically convenient to shift the blame to people for not masking.