Why are highly educated and trained professionals refusing to vaccinate?

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rambot

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But the ThatRobGuy suggested that COVID cases are so overwhelming to hospitals that if you break your arm and have to go to the ER, you'll have to go somewhere else because COVID patients are taking up all the beds. Are you suggesting that is not the case?
In my province now they ARE delaying a lot of surgeries. I know 2 (TWO) people who were supposed to have organ transplants and one whose gallstone surgery was delayed until it was a medical emergency (potentially fatal that didn't have to be anywhere near that).

In areas with dense outbreaks, yes, some hospitals are getting borderline overrun. There was even a PSA a couple weeks ago, suggesting limiting your driving and any high risk activities because any severe outcome would likely not be able to be dealt with in the ICU (though if you could avoid the ICU you'd probably be okay).
 
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probinson

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But the fact that we DO care and the fact that the strongest research supports the use of masks,

Citation needed.

and that antimaskers politicized the wearing of masks

Maskers also politicized the wearing of masks. Still do!

It was the mask averse crowd saying " ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ someone's gramma's gotta die.
And it was the maskers that were all like, "We've got to protect grandma!" all the while people's grandmas were literally dying from isolation measures instituted by those who "cared";

The hidden Covid-19 health crisis: Elderly people are dying from isolation
 
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ThatRobGuy

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That would be true only if the vaccine reduced the spread of the disease. It does not.

I don't know why you're pretending that everyone who gets sick with COVID ends up tying up hospital resources. They don't. The vast majority of them are treated at home with OTC medications.

In my area, hospitals were never "overwhelmed". I had to take my son to the ER because he fell off his bike and they had to put a splint on his arm. This was in the midst of a "spike" of COVID cases in our area. We waited in the ER for 10 minutes.

And what of the unintended consequences of vaccine mandates for healthcare workers. Here you are worried about hospital resources while hospitals are firing medical staff because they oppose the mandate.

What is the goal? To say we have 100% vaccination or to reduce severe outcomes? Giving booster shots to 18-year olds who have an infinitesimal risk from the virus in the first place does NOTHING to reduce severe outcomes. But it sure looks good on the shiny PowerBI dashboards!

Linking it to the "spread" is irrelevant.

Nobody is concerned about the "spread" of the common cold, because when the common cold spreads, it doesn't strain medical institutions.

If everyone had the protective effects of the covid vaccine in their corner, I wouldn't care if the covid infection rate was 100%.

If you read some of my other posts, I wasn't entirely in favor of firing everyone who didn't have the vaccine. With testing and professional grade PPR, I'd feel more comfortable around an unvaccinated nurse than I would an unvaccinated Target employee.

Now, I'll 100% agree that prior infection should be factored in (even though that puts me at odds with many on my side of this debate).

I'm one of the diligent ones who gets my titers checked pretty routinely. I've had covid and I've had the vaccine. My nucleocapsid protein antibody score was better than my spike protein antibody score despite having the vaccine months after the infection (which would indicate that natural infection confers longer lasting immunity than vaccination).

But that's not the case for many folks...many are refusing to get the vaccine for political reasons, and don't have any form of protection (evidenced by the hospitalization numbers).

I've said in multiple threads that I'd be cool with a mandate that required either vaccination, or a positive antibody test.
 
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rambot

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THE SCIENCE™!

Question; can you point me to an RCT that's been done on the efficacy of masks to slow the spread of COVID?
What? In the article you JUST posted it had data reflecting that.


May I ask why you keep writing the "trademark" stamp after science?
 
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probinson

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In your articles in indicates that cloth masks ARE effective just not as effective as surgical masks. I prefer cloth masks because I'm not keen to contribute to the landfills by using exclusively surgical masks.

It's better than nothing.

Make sure you wear a ball cap the next time you wear a motorcycle. At least you have something on your head, and that's better than nothing.
 
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Belk

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If ICU beds and hospital resources were not a finite resource, I'd agree with you.

At that point, it'd be none of my business.

However, they're not a infinite resource. If hospitals are filled up with covid patients, and someone shoots me, and I need to go to the hospital for treatment, and can't get good care, or can't even get a bed, because their slammed with people who "didn't think it was real" or "didn't think it was all that serious", then that does have externalities.

What do you think of the argument that others not being vaccinated increases the risk of a vaccine resistant mutation?
 
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Belk

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Make sure you wear a ball cap the next time you wear a motorcycle. At least you have something on your head, and that's better than nothing.

You mean like the literal reason people are advised against wearing shorts on a motorcycle?
 
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ThatRobGuy

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Definitely we don't care; really hit the nail on the head there.

But the fact that we DO care and the fact that the strongest research supports the use of masks, and that antimaskers politicized the wearing of masks because it's just sooooooo haaaaaaaaaaaaaard and then glommed on hard to poor research, sorta suggests that youre wrong.

It's strange.
It was the mask wearers I heard saying "I don't want old people to die".
It was the mask averse crowd saying " ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ someone's gramma's gotta die. This is America, I'm not wearing no mask".

And yet somehow....mask wearers don't want to help others. Yes. A clear understanding of the mask debate in America.

The anti-authoritarian aspect of the anti-mask argument can't be ignored.

As much as they like to bash Fauci for changing his recommendations on masks, their response to his recommendations was equally disparate/180'ish.

When news first came in early 2020 that covid was here, and Fauci was saying "there's no need to wear a a mask", people like my uncle stockpiled 3M n-95 respirator masks from Home Depot and started wearing them to protect against "The Chinese Virus". The moment Fauci became "at odds" with Trump, and started telling people to wear masks, my uncle's mask stockpile started collecting dust in his garage and all of the sudden "wearing a mask" = "conceding to the globalists who are trying to take our freedom"
 
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rambot

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Citation needed.
https://www.pnas.org/content/118/4/e2014564118
Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19)
Now yes, I know, I would never ever EVER expect you to sully your algorithms by looking at the CDC website. So instead, I'll posted the citations and if I can, the chart with the results.
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      2. Johansson MA, Quandelacy TM, Kada S, et al. SARS-CoV-2 Transmission From People Without COVID-19 Symptoms. JAMA Netw Open. Jan 4 2021;4(1):e2035057. doi:10.1001/jamanetworkopen.2020.35057
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      59. Samannan R, Holt G, Calderon-Candelario R, Mirsaeidi M, Campos M. Effect of Face Masks on Gas Exchange in Healthy Persons and Patients with Chronic Obstructive Pulmonary Disease. Ann Am Thorac Soc. Mar 2021;18(3):541-544. doi:10.1513/AnnalsATS.202007-812RL
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      61. Roberge RJ, Kim JH, Benson SM. Absence of consequential changes in physiological, thermal and subjective responses from wearing a surgical mask. Respir Physiol Neurobiol. Apr 15 2012;181(1):29-35. doi:10.1016/j.resp.2012.01.010
      62. Epstein D, Korytny A, Isenberg Y, et al. Return to training in the COVID-19 era: The physiological effects of face masks during exercise. Scand J Med Sci Sports. Jan 2021;31(1):70-75. doi:10.1111/sms.13832
      63. Hopkins SR, Dominelli PB, Davis CK, et al. Face Masks and the Cardiorespiratory Response to Physical Activity in Health and Disease. Ann Am Thorac Soc. Mar 2021;18(3):399-407. doi:10.1513/AnnalsATS.202008-990CME
      64. Lubrano R, Bloise S, Testa A, et al. Assessment of Respiratory Function in Infants and Young Children Wearing Face Masks During the COVID-19 Pandemic. JAMA Netw Open. Mar 1 2021;4(3):e210414. doi:10.1001/jamanetworkopen.2021.0414
      65. Person E, Lemercier C, Royer A, Reychler G. [Effect of a surgical mask on six minute walking distance]. Rev Mal Respir. Mar 2018;35(3):264-268. Effet du port d’un masque de soins lors d’un test de marche de six minutes chez des sujets sains. doi:10.1016/j.rmr.2017.01.010

To be fair this is only 65 studies and not 66.
There is a FANTASTIC chart that summarizes the results of all the data but again, you'd need to click on a [gasp] cdc page.

Maskers also politicized the wearing of masks. Still do!
Nonsense. Look at cultures where mask wearing is ubiquitous and nonpoliticized....Asian countries. Wearing a mask is a public hygiene step that can be taken. To refuse to wear that mask IS the politicization of the issue because you refuse to do so, not because of a health based reason but because of a political one.

If there was a movement across America for people to refuse to wash their hands after taking a dump, the ONLY arguments that they will be able to come up with are political ones.


And it was the maskers that were all like, "We've got to protect grandma!" all the while people's grandmas were literally dying from isolation measures instituted by those who "cared";

The hidden Covid-19 health crisis: Elderly people are dying from isolation
ROFL! And I laugh because you seem to think this statistic is SOMEHOW comparable to the number of elderly deaths from COVID[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]
 
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ThatRobGuy

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What do you think of the argument that others not being vaccinated increases the risk of a vaccine resistant mutation?

Thus far, I've seen little evidence of vaccine resistance mutations. So far, our vaccines have held up pretty well against any and all variants.

If there were clear evidence that a variant emerged that completely bypassed the protective aspect of the vaccines, then I'd revise my position on that.
 
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rambot

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The anti-authoritarian aspect of the anti-mask argument can't be ignored.

As much as they like to bash Fauci for changing his recommendations on masks, their response to his recommendations was equally disparate/180'ish.

When news first came in early 2020 that covid was here, and Fauci was saying "there's no need to wear a a mask", people like my uncle stockpiled 3M n-95 respirator masks from Home Depot and started wearing them to protect against "The Chinese Virus". The moment Fauci became "at odds" with Trump, and started telling people to wear masks, my uncle's mask stockpile started collecting dust in his garage and all of the sudden "wearing a mask" = "conceding to the globalists who are trying to take our freedom"
ug.

I respect the story but in terms of "ignoring" it, I may differ there. Political decisions are not smart ways to make health related decisions.
 
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rambot

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Make sure you wear a ball cap the next time you wear a motorcycle. At least you have something on your head, and that's better than nothing.
I imagine this was an apt analogy in your head but I would disagree
 
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probinson

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Linking it to the "spread" is irrelevant.
Agree to disagree.

Nobody is concerned about the "spread" of the common cold, because when the common cold spreads, it doesn't strain medical institutions.

But the flu does. It wasn't that long ago (2018) that hospitals had to set up tent cities in their parking lots to triage patients during a particularly bad flu season. Yet no one was asking for people to wear masks (probably because they knew it wouldn't help), or mandate their vaccination status everywhere they went to reduce the strain on hospitals.

Hospitals Overwhelmed by Flu Patients Are Treating Them in Tents

Now, I'll 100% agree that prior infection should be factored in (even though that puts me at odds with many on my side of this debate).

On this, we agree.

(which would indicate that natural infection confers longer lasting immunity than vaccination).

Careful! A statement like that might get you classified as an anti-vaxxer, or it might even result in a "misleading" footnote on social media.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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ug.

I respect the story but in terms of "ignoring" it, I may differ there. Political decisions are not smart ways to make health related decisions.

Obviously not...but I was just pointing out how much of a driver 'political persuasion" is for some folks.

If Fauci came out tomorrow and said "eating cat poop is bad", there would be people who would would do it, and link articles on social media from some alternative practitioner touting "the anti-inflammatory benefits of cat feces".

"Rectal vitamin D absorption" became a "thing" on social media...so I have no doubts that people would do something absolutely ridiculous simply because "the authority figure they've been politically conditioned to dislike" said it was a bad idea.
 
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renniks

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do you think the people who posted before you actually give a fish about real numbers or reality in general. they are either operatives, deluded or deranged. it's not worth trying to reason with such things.
Pretty sure this is called " flaming" and it's illegal here
 
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probinson

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If Fauci came out tomorrow and said "eating cat poop is bad", there would be people who would would do it, and link articles on social media from some alternative practitioner touting "the anti-inflammatory benefits of cat feces".

"Rectal vitamin D absorption" became a "thing" on social media...so I have no doubts that people would do something absolutely ridiculous simply because "the authority figure they've been politically conditioned to dislike" said it was a bad idea.

Likewise, if Fauci came out tomorrow and said, "New evidence shows that the only way to protect yourself from COVID is by eating cat poop", there would be people who would do it.
 
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