Have you ever read an Ellen White book?I am the victim. I was just likened to those who mocked Noah. That’s an argumentum ad hominem, which is a logically fallacious argument, and it is extremely hurtful.
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Have you ever read an Ellen White book?I am the victim. I was just likened to those who mocked Noah. That’s an argumentum ad hominem, which is a logically fallacious argument, and it is extremely hurtful.
BobRyan said: ↑
It does raise the question of whether the Bible says that valid prophets (like Nathan and Agabus and all those in 1 Cor 14 -- or Anna in the temple at Christ's dedication or Philip's four daughters, or Deborah in the book of Judges) should be speaking with "prophetic authority".
Sure they should. And people can today if they are prophets who pass the test.
The Bible supports the practice of prophets speaking with prophetic authority, as it is a Biblical gift.
Have you ever read an Ellen White book?
I guess we can agree to disagreeYes I have, I read The Great Controversy and it was sufficient to convince me that she was not a prophet, because of the severe historical errors.
Well, in number two there of the alternate vowsEllen refers everyone back to the bible, God’s Word is the ultimate authority and what everything must be tested by.
Here are the alternate baptism vows
1. Do you accept Jesus Christ as your personal Savior and Lord, and do you desire to live your life in a saving relationship with Him?
2. Do you accept the teachings of the Bible as expressed in the Statement of Fundamental Beliefs of the Seventh-day Adventist Church, and do you pledge by God’s grace to live your life in harmony with these teachings?
3. Do you desire to be baptized as a public expression of your belief in Jesus Christ, to be accepted into the fellowship of the Seventh-day Adventist Church, and to support the Church and its mission as a faithful steward by your personal influence, tithes and offerings, and a life of service?
We have been talking about the laws for over a year now- are you still wanting to discuss this?
@BobRyan reduced the laws to discuss just one to make it easy and you opted out. Perhaps this can be discussed in that thread?
I don't think we would need to go through the entire Bible. But I would want to talk about other laws.
In the past, I believe you had indicated that that was outside the topic of this thread. Also, I believe you recently talked about not wanting to discuss any commandment outside of the 10 and the first and second greatest commandments with someone who doesn't agree with your approach to the law.
Am I understanding that correctly?
It sounds to me, then, like part of the baptismal vow is accepting Ellen's writings.
It’s always more compelling to provide scripture references where you disagree than to just make blanket accusations. Please provide through scripture where you feel there are errors.
It’s amazing the war that is going on against the SDA church who still believes and teaches the commandments of God. We were warned and boy is it coming true. An EGW thread or mention daily, but for some reason when asked, no one wants to discuss scripture.
What is interesting is all of the positive statements of belief the SDA requires people to make in order to be baptized. There is no correlation to this in most other denominations; the baptismal vows are extremely simple.
1. Many People are accepted into the SDA church without accepting Ellen White as a prophet - and that is particularly true in the European Division. Ellen White herself insisted that acceptance of her spiritual gifts not be a test of fellowship for the church, barring someone from joining the church.
The people I have met who join and affirm #18 yet do not accept Ellen White - stipulate that they agree that the denomination believes Ellen White to have had the gift of prophecy and that this is how it is accepted by this denomination even though they themselves do not also share that view of Ellen White's spiritual gifts.
Have you ever read an Ellen White book?
Well then we agree on that.
The only thing that remains from there - is more Bible doctrine
I am off for now. Personally I am not sure why we are talking about EGW again- Ellen refers us back to the scripture and everything must be tested by scripture and it seems no one here wants to talk about scripture. God bless all and have a great evening!
One can see obvious plagiarism in this article from Andrew’s University of the writings Octavius Winslow, which the article attempts to excuse as “borrowing,” and Ellen White being the “Master of these works.” Actually, only today did I look into the accusations of plagiarism against Ellen White, but I was startled by the dramatic extent to which she actually plagiarized. When I previously read The Great Controversy, I noted the numerous historical errors, but assumed they were entirely her own, due to a lack of knowledge of ecclesiastical history, but now it seems to me they are in many cases just reiterations of inaccurate books about church history by a variety of authors and groups in the 19th century, for example, the Landmark Baptists.
Yes, I agree that Ellen White needs to be treated as any other claiming the prophetic gift, and tested. Which people joining the church and in the church often do. I do not rule out the possibility that she could be a prophet out of hand.
And we agree that understanding of the Bible is key to that as you alluded to earlier. Testing is based on their understanding of the meaning of the Scriptures. So Adventists are prone to seeing her passing the tests, and others are not.
However, it is also true a number of Adventists also do not accept Ellen White. In some cases that is because of churches who do not require it, though the vows do (they often substitute).
And in some cases that is because the wording has changed over the years, and those who came into the church decades ago didn't have the same text of fundamental beliefs that were part of that decision.
What is sad to me is that the early Adventist pioneers were very fiercely in favor of going by the Scriptures and not requiring everything be spelled out. They had many debates, and were generally anti-creed of any sort. But now the fundamentals have essentially become a creed.
The Seventh-day Adventist Church Fundamental belief #18 indicates that the writings of Ellen White speak with "prophetic authority."
https://szu.adventist.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/28_Beliefs.pdf
The Gift of Prophecy
The Scriptures testify that one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and we believe it was manifested in the ministry of Ellen G. White. Her writings speak with prophetic authority and provide comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction to the church. They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested. (Num. 12:6; 2 Chron. 20:20; Amos 3:7; Joel 2:28, 29; Acts 2:14-21; 2 Tim. 3:16, 17; Heb. 1:1-3; Rev. 12:17; 19:10; 22:8, 9.)
However, Ellen White herself emphasized that her writings point to the Bible.
The Lord desires you to study your Bibles. He has not given any additional light to take the place of His Word. This light is to bring confused minds to His Word which, if eaten and digested, is as the life-blood of the soul. Then good works will be seen as light shining in darkness. Letters and Manuscripts Volume 16 16LtMs, Lt 130, 1901, par. 1
You are not familiar with the Scriptures. If you had made God's Word your study, with a desire to reach the Bible standard and attain to Christian perfection, you would not have needed the Testimonies. It is because you have neglected to acquaint yourselves with God's inspired Book that He has sought to reach you by simple, direct testimonies, calling your attention to the words of inspiration which you had neglected to obey, and urging you to fashion your lives in accordance with its pure and elevated teachings.
Testimonies for the Church page 92 CCH 92.5
In public labor do not make prominent, and quote, that which Sister White has written, as authority to sustain your positions. To do this will not increase faith in the testimonies. Bring your evidences, clear and plain, from the Word of God. A “Thus saith the Lord,” is the strongest testimony you can possibly present to the people. Let none be educated to look to Sister White, but to the mighty God, who gives instruction to Sister White. The words given through the Holy Spirit, the Word of God, should be authority, and let all be educated to look to the divine Teacher. Attract minds to Jesus and His words. 9LtMs, Lt 11, 1894, par. 4
But I do not ask you to take my words. Lay Sister White to one side. Do not quote my words again as long as you live until you can obey the Bible. When you make the Bible your food, your meat and your drink, when you make its principles the elements of your character, you will know better how to receive counsel from God. I exalt the precious Word before you today. Do not repeat what I have said, saying, “Sister White said this,” and “Sister White said that.” Find out what the Lord God of Israel says, and then do what He commands. Letters and Manuscripts Volume 16 16LtMs, Ms 43, 1901, par. 26
Would it be best for the church to remove belief in Ellen White from the fundamental beliefs?
And if the Scriptures are sufficient, and the standard by which everything must be tested, is it necessary to have the writings of Ellen White to point to the Scriptures?
Yes, I agree that Ellen White needs to be treated as any other claiming the prophetic gift, and tested.
And we agree that understanding of the Bible is key to that as you alluded to earlier. Testing is based on their understanding of the meaning of the Scriptures. .
Well, if someone is taking a vow saying that they accept a particular expression of Bible teaching when they don't actually accept that expression, I don't think that's a good situation.It would be nice if everyone who joined the church did that on day one - but in real life - that is not what happens. People often join because they accept the Bible doctrines as tested sola scriptura - and only some time later accept the spiritual gift God gave to Ellen White.
Ellen refers everyone back to the bible, God’s Word is the ultimate authority and what everything must be tested by.
Here are the alternate baptism vows
1. Do you accept Jesus Christ as your personal Savior and Lord, and do you desire to live your life in a saving relationship with Him?
2. Do you accept the teachings of the Bible as expressed in the Statement of Fundamental Beliefs of the Seventh-day Adventist Church, and do you pledge by God’s grace to live your life in harmony with these teachings?
3. Do you desire to be baptized as a public expression of your belief in Jesus Christ, to be accepted into the fellowship of the Seventh-day Adventist Church, and to support the Church and its mission as a faithful steward by your personal influence, tithes and offerings, and a life of service?
Someone could argue that the church needs to start making that a rule - but it has not applied it and Ellen White did not favor it. At the same time we have this:
Belief #18
"The Scriptures testify that one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church "
That is taken from Rev 12 so all new members actually do tend to agree with that even those who do not accept that specifically this applies to any spiritual gift that Ellen White had.
Belief #18 continued.
"we believe it was manifested in the ministry of Ellen G. White. Her writings speak with prophetic authority and provide comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction to the church. They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested"
The people I have met who join and affirm #18 yet do not accept Ellen White - stipulate that they agree that the denomination believes Ellen White to have had the gift of prophecy and that this is how it is accepted by this denomination even though they themselves do not also share that view of Ellen White's spiritual gifts.
-- and your argument that the church should not allow them to join in that case - is interesting but it is not the practice of the church.
Well, if someone is taking a vow saying that they accept a particular expression of Bible teaching when they don't actually accept that expression, I don't think that's a good situation.