SDA Is it time for the church to remove Ellen White from fundamental beliefs

Status
Not open for further replies.

SabbathBlessings

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jun 12, 2020
10,022
4,233
USA
✟470,826.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
I am happy to discuss scriptures with you. Probably not here on this thread, since it would easily get off topic.


But there have been two recent threads where I presented scripture and asked you a question and haven't heard back.

Are you aware of this? Did you just miss the posts? It's an easy thing to do by accident, I know.
We have been talking about the laws for over a year now- are you still wanting to discuss this? @BobRyan reduced the laws to discuss just one to make it easy and you opted out. Perhaps this can be discussed in that thread?
 
  • Winner
Reactions: BobRyan
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
10,934
5,592
49
The Wild West
✟461,677.00
Country
United States
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
The Adventist church does not require you to accept Ellen White.

That’s not true, based on the following:

Here are the alternate baptism vows

1. Do you accept Jesus Christ as your personal Savior and Lord, and do you desire to live your life in a saving relationship with Him?

2. Do you accept the teachings of the Bible as expressed in the Statement of Fundamental Beliefs of the Seventh-day Adventist Church, and do you pledge by God’s grace to live your life in harmony with these teachings?

3. Do you desire to be baptized as a public expression of your belief in Jesus Christ, to be accepted into the fellowship of the Seventh-day Adventist Church, and to support the Church and its mission as a faithful steward by your personal influence, tithes and offerings, and a life of service?

The second vow is of acceptance of the Statement of Fundamental Beliefs, and Article 18 of those beliefs includes a statement that Ellen G. White was a prophet. Also, another fundamental belief is in the Great Controversy.

What is interesting is all of the positive statements of belief the SDA requires people to make in order to be baptized. There is no correlation to this in most other denominations; the baptismal vows are extremely simple.
 
Upvote 0

SabbathBlessings

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jun 12, 2020
10,022
4,233
USA
✟470,826.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
That’s not true, based on the following:



The second vow is of acceptance of the Statement of Fundamental Beliefs, and Article 18 of those beliefs includes a statement that Ellen G. White was a prophet. Also, another fundamental belief is in the Great Controversy.

What is interesting is all of the positive statements of belief the SDA requires people to make in order to be baptized. There is no correlation to this in most other denominations; the baptismal vows are extremely simple.

The bible talks about the end time church having the gift of prophecy.

The Scriptures testify that one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and we believe it was manifested in the ministry of Ellen G. White. Her writings speak with prophetic authority and provide comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction to the church. They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested. (Num. 12:6; 2 Chron. 20:20; Amos 3:7; Joel 2:28, 29; Acts 2:14-21; 2 Tim. 3:16, 17; Heb. 1:1-3; Rev. 12:17; 19:10; 22:8, 9.)

Still didn't answer my question though. :)
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,118
10,509
Georgia
✟900,262.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
The second vow is of acceptance of the Statement of Fundamental Beliefs, and Article 18 of those beliefs includes a statement that Ellen G. White was a prophet. Also, another fundamental belief is in the Great Controversy.

1. Many People are accepted into the SDA church without accepting Ellen White as a prophet - and that is particularly true in the European Division. Ellen White herself insisted that acceptance of her spiritual gifts not be a test of fellowship for the church, barring someone from joining the church. Everyone accepts the remnant church teaching - but some view the "gift of prophecy" in a way that for them, does not include Ellen White. Obviously they would not choose to join if they felt themselves to be at war with Ellen White - but not accepting the spiritual gift of prophecy as given to Ellen White is not a barrier to membership.

2. There is the book "The Great Controversy" which is not required reading to be a member of the church nor is it required that anyone accept the Book as inspired to be a Seventh-day Adventist. Belief #8 for Seventh-day Adventists is not talking about reading or accepting "that book".

Belief #8
  1. Great Controversy - it is talking about accepting Revelation 12.
All humanity is now involved in a great controversy between Christ and Satan regarding the character of God, His law, and His sovereignty over the universe. This conflict originated in heaven when a created being, endowed with freedom of choice, in self-exaltation became Satan, God’s adversary, and led into rebellion a portion of the angels. He introduced the spirit of rebellion into this world when he led Adam and Eve into sin. This human sin resulted in the distortion of the image of God in humanity, the disordering of the created world, and its eventual devastation at the time of the worldwide flood. Observed by the whole creation, this world became the arena of the universal conflict, out of which the God of love will ultimately be vindicated. To assist His people in this controversy, Christ sends the Holy Spirit and the loyal angels to guide, protect, and sustain them in the way of salvation. (Rev. 12:4-9; Isa. 14:12-14; Eze. 28:12-18; Gen. 3; Rom. 1:19-32; 5:12-21; 8:19-22; Gen. 6-8; 2 Peter 3:6; 1 Cor. 4:9; Heb. 1:14.)
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
10,934
5,592
49
The Wild West
✟461,677.00
Country
United States
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
1. Many People are accepted into the SDA church without accepting Ellen White as a prophet - and that is particularly true in the European Division. Ellen White herself insisted that acceptance of her spiritual gifts not be a test of fellowship for the church, barring someone from joining the church.

2. There is the book "The Great Controversy" which is not required reading to be a member of the church nor is it required that anyone accept the Book as inspired to be a Seventh-day Adventist

Ok, but what about the Second Baptismal Vow? That requires acceptance of the Statement of Fundamental Beliefs, and Article 18 of those beliefs includes a statement that Ellen G. White was a prophet.
 
  • Useful
Reactions: Leaf473
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,118
10,509
Georgia
✟900,262.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Ok, but what about the Second Baptismal Vow? That requires acceptance of the Statement of Fundamental Beliefs, and Article 18 of those beliefs includes a statement that Ellen G. White was a prophet.

Yes and one could imagine that it might lessen the enthusiasm for accepting new members that do not fully adopt that view - however this has never been the practice of the denomination since Ellen White herself said not to go that far in promoting that view. The result is that there are almost entire divisions of the church that are known as having a very weak position on affirming Ellen White as a prophet -- (the church is organized into 13 world divisions plus what is called "Attached Fields")

Detractors often try to position the doctrines of the church in such a way that one could imagine those doctrines "need" affirming statements from Ellen White - but entire Divisions know first hand - that they have large groups that have not even read what she wrote. All of our evangelistic Bible studies , Baptismal classes etc - are based on testing doctrine "sola scriptura" - which is how so many can join without ever reading a word of what Ellen White wrote.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
10,934
5,592
49
The Wild West
✟461,677.00
Country
United States
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
Yeah, you're probably correct here. The bible talks about the end time church having the gift of prophecy,

We do not know we are in the End Times. The idea that we are is an Adventist doctrine, based on the Millerite movement, and the Great Disappointment of 1844. Our Lord said that no one, not even the angels in Heaven, knows when the End Times will be, so such a doctrine contradicts the words of our Lord, the Only Begotten Son and Word of God, who is God Incarnate.

so if you don't believe that the SDA church has that gift it might not be the church for you.

I can’t speak for the SDA church; I simply believe Ellen White is not a valid prophet. This does not exclude the possibility of the SDA producing a valid prophet.

The Scriptures testify that one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church

So firstly, while I am not a Cessationist, Scripture does not refute Cessationism, which is why many of the mainline Protestant churches are Cessationist. So once again, I find myself being told what Scriptures say, when that is merely an interpretation.

and we believe it was manifested in the ministry of Ellen G. White. Her writings speak with prophetic authority and provide comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction to the church.

They are also riddled with historical errors, failed predictions (where is the law prohibiting worshipping on Saturday and mandating worship on Sunday?), and historical inaccuracies and, additionally, plagiarism. One can see obvious plagiarism in this article from Andrew’s University of the writings Octavius Winslow, which the article attempts to excuse as “borrowing,” and Ellen White being the “Master of these works.” Actually, only today did I look into the accusations of plagiarism against Ellen White, but I was startled by the dramatic extent to which she actually plagiarized. When I previously read The Great Controversy, I noted the numerous historical errors, but assumed they were entirely her own, due to a lack of knowledge of ecclesiastical history, but now it seems to me they are in many cases just reiterations of inaccurate books about church history by a variety of authors and groups in the 19th century, for example, the Landmark Baptists.

They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested. (Num. 12:6; 2 Chron. 20:20; Amos 3:7; Joel 2:28, 29; Acts 2:14-21; 2 Tim. 3:16, 17; Heb. 1:1-3; Rev. 12:17; 19:10; 22:8, 9.)

That does not excuse them from their failed predictions, historical errors and plagiarism.

Still didn't answer my question though. :)

What question did I not answer?
 
  • Useful
Reactions: Leaf473
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
10,934
5,592
49
The Wild West
✟461,677.00
Country
United States
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
Yes and one could imagine that it might lessen the enthusiasm for accepting new members that do not fully adopt that view - however this has never been the practice of the denomination since Ellen White herself said not to go that far in promoting that view. The result is that there are almost entire divisions of the church that are known as having a very weak position on affirming Ellen White as a prophet -- (the church is organized into 13 world divisions plus what is called "Attached Fields")

Detractors often try to position the doctrines of the church in such a way that one could imagine those doctrines "need" affirming statements from Ellen White - but entire Divisions know first hand - that they have large groups that have not even read what she wrote. All of our evangelistic Bible studies , Baptismal classes etc - are based on testing doctrine "sola scriptura" - which is how so many can join without ever reading a word of what Ellen White wrote.

Right, but the second Baptismal vow requires acceptance of the Statement of Fundamental Beliefs, and the Statement of Fundamental Beliefs says she was a prophet. I am not claiming people have to read Ellen G White or even that this second vow is widely known or somehow enforced, but rather, merely that if one professes the second vow, they are agreeing that EGW is a prophet, because the Statement of Fundamental Beliefs says so.
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,118
10,509
Georgia
✟900,262.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
I can’t speak for the SDA church; I simply believe Ellen White is not a valid prophet. This does not exclude the possibility of the SDA producing a valid prophet.

I understand your POV - but consider this -- the Bible asks that we test prophets and any prophet that has incorrect doctrine can still be a valid prophet - as long as they do not make the claim that the point where they are not correct - is something that God also agrees with them on or indicated that He also approves of it. To test prophets - we have to use the sola scriptura test - to see if scripture condemns some doctrinal position that the prophet claims God has conveyed to them.

IF that prophet in denomination-A claimed God had said anything by way of "approval" regarding any doctrine where denomination-B had a difference - then any member of denomination-B would by definition be inclined to reject that prophet. That is perfectly logical and is what I would recommend.
 
Upvote 0

SabbathBlessings

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jun 12, 2020
10,022
4,233
USA
✟470,826.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
We do not know we are in the End Times. The idea that we are is an Adventist doctrine, based on the Millerite movement, and the Great Disappointment of 1844. Our Lord said that no one, not even the angels in Heaven, knows when the End Times will be, so such a doctrine contradicts the words of our Lord, the Only Begotten Son and Word of God, who is God Incarnate.



I can’t speak for the SDA church; I simply believe Ellen White is not a valid prophet. This does not exclude the possibility of the SDA producing a valid prophet.



So firstly, while I am not a Cessationist, Scripture does not refute Cessationism, which is why many of the mainline Protestant churches are Cessationist. So once again, I find myself being told what Scriptures say, when that is merely an interpretation.



They are also riddled with historical errors, failed predictions (where is the law prohibiting worshipping on Saturday and mandating worship on Sunday?), and historical inaccuracies and, additionally, plagiarism. One can see obvious plagiarism in this article from Andrew’s University of the writings Octavius Winslow, which the article attempts to excuse as “borrowing,” and Ellen White being the “Master of these works.” Actually, only today did I look into the accusations of plagiarism against Ellen White, but I was startled by the dramatic extent to which she actually plagiarized. When I previously read The Great Controversy, I noted the numerous historical errors, but assumed they were entirely her own, due to a lack of knowledge of ecclesiastical history, but now it seems to me they are in many cases just reiterations of inaccurate books about church history by a variety of authors and groups in the 19th century, for example, the Landmark Baptists.



That does not excuse them from their failed predictions, historical errors and plagiarism.



What question did I not answer?

You are mixing internet searches from anti-Adventists with real facts. The SDA church did not predict 1844. That came from a Baptist Pastor and had nothing to do with any predictions from the SDA church who was formed in 1863, almost 20 years later

The rest of your post is the same erroneous assumptions. Again not one scripture posted to prove any errors in doctrine

God bless and take care
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
10,934
5,592
49
The Wild West
✟461,677.00
Country
United States
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
You are mixing internet searches from anti-Adventists with real facts. The SDA church did not predict 1844. That came from a Baptist Pastor and had nothing to do with any predictions from the SDA church who was formed in 1863.

The SDA church is descended from the Millerites, but the false prediction of Ellen White is that there would be laws prohibiting Sabbath worship and mandating Sunday worship. Those laws aren’t happening, and won’t, because of society’s rejection of anti-Semitism in the wake of the Holocaust.

The rest of your post is the same erroneous assumptions. Again not one scripture posted to prove any errors in doctrine

The issues in this thread concerning Ellen G White are not of a scriptural nature. Her historical errors, failed prophecies and plagiarism do not require scriptural citation, because her writings are not scripture.

The doctrinal errors in her writings however can be seen from reading the Epistle of Paul to the Galatians, and also his epistle to the Romans, and also the four Gospels, and the Acts of the Apostles, which establish that we are not under the law and provide a scriptural basis for Sunday worship.

I do love how you say you have nothing against the Adventist church when that is an obvious blatant misrepresentation.

I have nothing against the SDA or Adventists - I just disagree that Ellen White is a prophet.
 
Upvote 0

SabbathBlessings

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jun 12, 2020
10,022
4,233
USA
✟470,826.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
The SDA church is descended from the Millerites, but the false prediction of Ellen White is that there would be laws prohibiting Sabbath worship and mandating Sunday worship. Those laws aren’t happening, and won’t, because of society’s rejection of anti-Semitism in the wake of the Holocaust.



The issues in this thread concerning Ellen G White are not of a scriptural nature. Her historical errors, failed prophecies and plagiarism do not require scriptural citation, because her writings are not scripture.

The doctrinal errors in her writings however can be seen from reading the Epistle of Paul to the Galatians, and also his epistle to the Romans, and also the four Gospels, and the Acts of the Apostles, which establish that we are not under the law and provide a scriptural basis for Sunday worship.



I have nothing against the SDA or Adventists - I just disagree that Ellen White is a prophet.

We are not at End times yet, so no way for you to say the Sunday law prediction is false. The rest of your post is the same as before a lot of shots without knowing any real facts.

I do find it interesting when one doesn’t want to talk scripture they always turn to Ellen White and not scripture.

People made fun of Noah too, so nothing new here.
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,118
10,509
Georgia
✟900,262.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Right, but the second Baptismal vow requires acceptance of the Statement of Fundamental Beliefs, and the Statement of Fundamental Beliefs says she was a prophet.

Someone could argue that the church needs to start making that a rule - but it has not applied it and Ellen White did not favor it. At the same time

Belief #18
"The Scriptures testify that one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church "​

That is taken from Rev 12 so all new members actually do tend to agree with that even those who do not accept that specifically this applies to any spiritual gift that Ellen White had.


Belief #18 continued.
"we believe it was manifested in the ministry of Ellen G. White. Her writings speak with prophetic authority and provide comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction to the church. They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested"​

The people I have met who join and affirm #18 yet do not accept Ellen White - stipulate that they agree that the denomination believes Ellen White to have had the gift of prophecy and that this is how it is accepted by this denomination even though they themselves do not also share that view of Ellen White's spiritual gifts.

-- and your argument that the church should not allow them to join in that case - is interesting but it is not the practice of the church.
 
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
10,934
5,592
49
The Wild West
✟461,677.00
Country
United States
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
We are not at End times yet, so no way for you to say the Sunday law prediction is false. The rest of your post is the same as before a lot of shots without knowing any real facts.

I thought you said we were in the end times in post #124.

I do find it interesting when one doesn’t want to talk scripture they always turn to Ellen White and not scripture.

This thread is specifically about EGW’s status as a prophet in the SDA, so it is not a question of scripture, except to the extent that the scriptural qualification for an inspired prophecy is complete accuracy. Historical errors and plagiarism indicate errors.

People made fun of Noah too, so nothing new here.

Nowhere have I mocked or made fun of Ellen White. It is extremely offensive to be likened to those who rejected Noah. It is extremely offensive to be told I disagree with Scripture. It is extremely offensive for it to be suggested that I am not a part of the remnant church and am probably not saved.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: tall73
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,118
10,509
Georgia
✟900,262.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
The SDA church is descended from the Millerites,

The Millerite movement was never a denomination, it was a movement across denominations kind of like the charismatic movement is not one single denomination.

but the false prediction of Ellen White is that there would be laws prohibiting Sabbath worship and mandating Sunday worship. Those laws aren’t happening, and won’t

You predict one future and Ellen White predicted another one. Time will tell.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
10,934
5,592
49
The Wild West
✟461,677.00
Country
United States
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
Someone could argue that the church needs to start making that a rule - but it has not applied it and Ellen White did not favor it. At the same time

Belief #18
"The Scriptures testify that one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church "​

That is taken from Rev 12 so all new members actually do tend to agree with that even those who do not accept that specifically this applies to any spiritual gift that Ellen White had.


Belief #18 continued.
"we believe it was manifested in the ministry of Ellen G. White. Her writings speak with prophetic authority and provide comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction to the church. They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested"​

The people I have met who join and affirm #18 yet do not accept Ellen White - stipulate that they agree that the denomination believes Ellen White to have had the gift of prophecy and that this is how it is accepted by this denomination even though they themselves do not also share that view of Ellen White's spiritual gifts.

-- and your argument that the church should not allow them to join in that case - is interesting but it is not the practice of the church.

I don’t see how one could make a vow that they accepted the Statement of Fundamental Beliefs while disagreeing with the denomination on the contents of those beliefs. I mean, why even have such a statement at that point?
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,118
10,509
Georgia
✟900,262.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
This thread is specifically about EGW’s status as a prophet in the SDA, so it is not a question of scripture,

The sole basis upon which Ellen White is accepted in the SDA denomination - is scripture.
 
Upvote 0

SabbathBlessings

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jun 12, 2020
10,022
4,233
USA
✟470,826.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
I thought you said we were in the end times in post #124.
You should re-read post #24- I do not say that.


Nowhere have I mocked or made fun of Ellen White. It is extremely offensive to be likened to those who rejected Noah. It is extremely offensive to be told I disagree with Scripture. It is extremely offensive for it to be suggested that I am not a part of the remnant church and am probably not saved.

You read into a lot of things that are not said, make accusations that you do not substantiate than seem to think you are the victim for some reason.
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,118
10,509
Georgia
✟900,262.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
I don’t see how one could make a vow that they accepted the Statement of Fundamental Beliefs while disagreeing with the denomination on the contents of those beliefs. I mean, why even have such a statement at that point?

Well I certainly did not do that - but I know a number who did and I know of entire SDA divisions where that is predominately the case. The REASON everyone gives for doing it is that they agree with our doctrines based on "sola scriptura testing" -- and no other denomination has that set of beliefs. Since we don't make the acceptance of Ellen White's spiritual gift a barrier to joining the church - there is nothing blocking them from joining.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: The Liturgist
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
10,934
5,592
49
The Wild West
✟461,677.00
Country
United States
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
You should re-read post #24- I do not say that.




You read into a lot of things that are not said, make accusations that you do not substantiate than seem to think you are the victim for some reason.

I am the victim. I was just likened to those who mocked Noah. That’s an argumentum ad hominem, which is a logically fallacious argument, and it is extremely hurtful.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: tall73
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.