FOLLOWING MAN MADE TRADITIONS AND TEACHINGS OR THE WORD OF GOD?

[LoveGodsWord]

SHOULD WE FOLLOW MAN-MADE TEACHINGS AND TRADITIONS THAT ARE AGAINST GOD'S WORD?

Hi everyone, I have been here at this forum for sometime now already and one thing I have learnt and believe is that there is every wind of doctrine out there all professing to be the truth of Gods' Word. So I am personally of the view that unless God is our guide and teacher as we prayerfully ask him to personally teach us the truth of His Words we cannot know the truth in seeking it from others unless God guides someone who knows the truth and His Spirit reveals His Word to us in this way.

I have found in much of my discussions with others here on controversial topics that once detailed scripture responses are posted and it is shown through the scriptures that one one once believed to be true in the scriptures may not be true many seek support for their teachings and traditions that cannot be supported from the bible alone to sources outside of the bible that contradict the teachings of the bible appealing to man-made teachings and tradition over the Word of God.

WHAT IS THE ONLY STANDARD OF TRUTH IN THE BIBLE?

Q1. Who should we believe and follow when it comes to the final and important decision of what it means to be a Christian and having a personal relationship with God; God through His Word or the teachings and tradition of men that might lead us away from God and His Word?

Q2. What is the bibles definition of truth?

Q3. Can we have Gods' grace without believing and following what Gods' Word says?

SOME QUESTIONS THAT DEMONSTRATE MAN-MADE TEACHING UNSUPPORTED BY SCRIPTURE.

Q4. Where in the bible does it say that "Sunday" is "the Lords day" of Revelation 1:10?

Q5. Where in the bible does it say that God's 4th commandment has now been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day of rest?

Q6. Where does it say anywhere in the scriptures that Jesus is the Sabbath?

Q7. Where in the scriptures does it to keep the first day in honor of the resurrection of Christ?

Q8. Where from any apostolic writings of the new testament do any of the Apostles authorizes Sunday observance to be kept as a memorial of the resurrection of Jesus?

Q9. Where in the scriptures does it say that the seventh day is no longer God's Sabbath day and 4th commandment of the 10 commandments that give us a knowledge of what sin is when broken?

Q10. Where in the scriptures does it say that the seventh day of God's 4th commandment of the 10 commandments has been abolished?

Q11. Where the apostles ever taught any convert to keep the first day of the week as a Sabbath?

Q12. Where in the scriptures is the first day was ever appointed to be kept as the Lord's Day?

Q13. Where in the scriptures does it say that the seventh day is the “Jewish Sabbath” or one text that calls Sunday the “Christian Sabbath”?

Q14. Where in the scriptures does it tell us to keep the first day of the week holy or to worship or rest on the first day of the week?

Q15. Where in the scriptures does it authorize anyone to set aside God's Sabbath and observe any other day?

Q16. Where is the scripture showing any of the apostles keeping the first day of the week as as a memorial of the resurrection?

Q23. Where Sunday is now appointed to be kept as the New Testament Christian Sabbath or holy day or as a memorial of the resurrection?

Q24. Where God's 10 commandments have been abolished that includes Gods' 4th commandment

Q25. How can love be separate from obedience to Gods' 10 commandments?

Sub questions of Q25...

Q25.2. Do we love God by having other God's?

Q25.3. Do we love God by making idols and bowing down and worshiping them?

Q25.4. Do we love God by taking God's name in vain?

Q25.5. Do we love God by breaking and disregarding His seventh day Sabbath?

Q25.6. Do we love our parents by dishonoring them?

Q25.7. Do we love our neighbor by murdering them?

Q25.8. Do we love our neighbor by committing adultery with their spouse?

Q25.9. Do we love our neighbor by stealing from them?

Q25.10. Do we love our neighbor by lying to them?

Q25.11. Do we love our neighbor by coveting their belongings?

....................

Friendly discussion please with your answers supported by scripture. The main topic of the OP is in regards to who should we believe and follow; God or man? There is an interesting passage of the scriptures in the very Words of Jesus in Matthew 15:2-9 where Jesus says that if we knowingly follow man-made teachings and tradition that lead us away from God and His Word to break the commandments of God we are not worshiping God. If this is the case this begs the question once more if we are following man-made teachings and traditions handed down from the Roman Catholic Church who are we worshiping?

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

Gods bless.

 

[Lost4words]

Remember one big fact.

Before the Bible was assembled, or scripture was widely available, people, had to rely on the preaching of God's word via oral Traditions handed down from the Apostles!

Actual scriptures were few and far between. It wasnt until the invention of the printing press that the Bible became widely available. And even then, vast majorities of the populous were illiterate. They had to be taught / preached to!!

Nowadays we have millions of so called 'experts' on Gods word! Each with their own interpretations, opinions, ideas of what scripture is saying.

 

[Abaxvahl]

Q1. Who should we believe and follow when it comes to the final and important decision of what it means to be a Christian and having a personal relationship with God; God through His Word or the teachings and tradition of men that might lead us away from God and His Word?

Q2. What is the bibles definition of truth?

Q3. Can we have Gods' grace without believing and following what Gods' Word says?

Q4. Where in the bible does it say that "Sunday" is "the Lords day" of Revelation 1:10?

Q5. Where in the bible does it say that God's 4th commandment has now been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day of rest?

Q6. Where does it say anywhere in the scriptures that Jesus is the Sabbath?

Q7. Where does it say in the scriptures that the Sabbath (Gods 4th commandment) was ever changed from the seventh to the first day of the week?

Q8. Where in the scripture are we told to keep the first day of the week as a holy day?

Q9. Where in the scriptures does it say the first day of the week (Sunday) is ever called a holy day?

Q10. Where in the scriptures does it to keep the first day in honor of the resurrection of Christ?

Q11. Where in the scriptures is the first day of the week (Sunday) ever given any sacred name?

Q12. That affirms that any of the apostles ever kept the first day as the Sabbath?

Q13. Where from any apostolic writings of the new testament do any of the Apostles authorizes Sunday observance to be kept as a memorial of the resurrection of Jesus?

Q14. Where in the scriptures does it say that the seventh day is no longer God's Sabbath day and 4th commandment of the 10 commandments that give us a knowledge of what sin is when broken?

Q15. Where in the scriptures does it say that the seventh day of God's 4th commandment of the 10 commandments has been abolished?

Q16. Where the apostles ever taught any convert to keep the first day of the week as a Sabbath?

Q15. Where in the scriptures is the first day was ever appointed to be kept as the Lord's Day?

Q16. Where in the scriptures does it say that the seventh day is the “Jewish Sabbath” or one text that calls Sunday the “Christian Sabbath”?

Q17. Where in the scriptures does it tell us to keep the first day of the week holy or to worship or rest on the first day of the week?

Q18. Where in the scriptures does it authorize anyone to set aside God's Sabbath and observe any other day?

Q19. Where is the scripture showing any of the apostles keeping the first day of the week as as a memorial of the resurrection?

Q20. Where is the scripture declaring that the seventh day is no longer the eternal Sabbath day?

Q21. Where Sunday is now appointed to be kept as the New Testament Christian Sabbath or holy day or as a memorial of the resurrection?

Very rough answers for a start, what comes to mind as answers is this:

A1) God through His Word, for the Word says "I am the truth, the way, and the life, no one comes to the Father except by me."
A2) See A1.
A3) No, for living from God's grace is in fact life. St. Paul says "the life I live now is by faith in the by the Son of God" (Galatians 2:20), but could he have such life without grace and life from the fountain of eternal life which is God's Word? No, for "unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood you have no life in you" (Jn 6:53) and "the water I give springs up to eternal life" (Jn 4:14), and grace is fitly compared to water due to it's abundance from God (Zechariah 12:10).
A4) It doesn't say that there, although it of course doesn't make it false.
A5) Nowhere does it say this for it is impossible that such a thing be done I think, for God rested on the Sabbath and "we have a Sabbath-rest to enter into" (Hebrews 4).
A6) Depends on what you mean by "say," for the Lord Jesus says "come to me and I will give you rest" but Hebrews says we have a "rest to enter into" and St. John says "whoever believes into the Lord" (John 3), some would say and I think rightly that this is connected and proves it.
A7) Nowhere, see A5, it can't be done.
A8) Depends on what you mean by say, for it can be rightly deduced from Apostolic context that "the Lord's Day" mentioned in many places in the NT is in fact that, see A4.
A9-A11) See A8 and A4.
A12) It's not a Sabbath so they didn't, see A5.
A13) See A9-A11.
A14) Nowhere, see A5.
A15) See A13.
A16) Nowhere, that would be a stupid claim to make, see A5.
A17) See A13 and A6.
A18) A5.
A19) See A15.
A20) A5.
A21) A8, A4.

Luckily I am a Sabbath-keeper who keeps not the vain traditions of man in my religion but only the faith of Christ delivered once for all to the Saints. These questions got truly repetitive after a certain point.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

SHOULD WE FOLLOW MAN-MADE TEACHINGS AND TRADITIONS THAT ARE AGAINST GOD'S WORD?

Hi everyone, I have been here at this forum for sometime now already and one thing I have learnt and believe is that there is every wind of doctrine out there all professing to be the truth of Gods' Word. So I am personally of the view that unless God is our guide and teacher as we prayerfully ask him to personally teach us the truth of His Words we cannot know the truth in seeking it from others unless God guides someone who knows the truth and His Spirit reveals His Word to us in this way.

I have found in much of my discussions with others here on controversial topics that once detailed scripture responses are posted and it is shown through the scriptures that one one once believed to be true in the scriptures may not be true many seek support for their teachings and traditions that cannot be supported from the bible alone to sources outside of the bible that contradict the teachings of the bible appealing to man-made teachings and tradition over the Word of God.

SOME QUESTIONS FOR DISCUSSION.

Q1. Who should we believe and follow when it comes to the final and important decision of what it means to be a Christian and having a personal relationship with God; God through His Word or the teachings and tradition of men that might lead us away from God and His Word?

Q2. What is the bibles definition of truth?

Q3. Can we have Gods' grace without believing and following what Gods' Word says?

Q4. Where in the bible does it say that "Sunday" is "the Lords day" of Revelation 1:10?

Q5. Where in the bible does it say that God's 4th commandment has now been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day of rest?

Q6. Where does it say anywhere in the scriptures that Jesus is the Sabbath?

Q7. Where does it say in the scriptures that the Sabbath (Gods 4th commandment) was ever changed from the seventh to the first day of the week?

Q8. Where in the scripture are we told to keep the first day of the week as a holy day?

Q9. Where in the scriptures does it say the first day of the week (Sunday) is ever called a holy day?

Q10. Where in the scriptures does it to keep the first day in honor of the resurrection of Christ?

Q11. Where in the scriptures is the first day of the week (Sunday) ever given any sacred name?

Q12. That affirms that any of the apostles ever kept the first day as the Sabbath?

Q13. Where from any apostolic writings of the new testament do any of the Apostles authorizes Sunday observance to be kept as a memorial of the resurrection of Jesus?

Q14. Where in the scriptures does it say that the seventh day is no longer God's Sabbath day and 4th commandment of the 10 commandments that give us a knowledge of what sin is when broken?

Q15. Where in the scriptures does it say that the seventh day of God's 4th commandment of the 10 commandments has been abolished?

Q16. Where the apostles ever taught any convert to keep the first day of the week as a Sabbath?

Q15. Where in the scriptures is the first day was ever appointed to be kept as the Lord's Day?

Q16. Where in the scriptures does it say that the seventh day is the “Jewish Sabbath” or one text that calls Sunday the “Christian Sabbath”?

Q17. Where in the scriptures does it tell us to keep the first day of the week holy or to worship or rest on the first day of the week?

Q18. Where in the scriptures does it authorize anyone to set aside God's Sabbath and observe any other day?

Q19. Where is the scripture showing any of the apostles keeping the first day of the week as as a memorial of the resurrection?

Q20. Where is the scripture declaring that the seventh day is no longer the eternal Sabbath day?

Q21. Where Sunday is now appointed to be kept as the New Testament Christian Sabbath or holy day or as a memorial of the resurrection?

....................

Friendly discussion please with your answers supported by scripture. The main topic of the OP is in regards to who should we believe and follow; God or man? There is in interesting passage of the scriptures in the very Words of Jesus in Matthew 15:2-9 where Jesus says that if we knowingly follow man-made teachings and tradition that lead us away from God and His Word to break the commandments of God we are not worshiping God. If this is the case this begs the question once more if we are following man-made teachings and traditions handed down from the Roman Catholic Church who are we worshiping?

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

Gods bless.

Great topic! Let me go through these questions and will post my answers when I have time to go through it without interruption

God bless.

 

[dzheremi]

Do you have a cliff's notes version of what you're trying to say? I've seen so many of these "TRADITIONS OF MEN!!! " threads that they all start to blend together after a while.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Very rough answers for a start, what comes to mind as answers is this:...... Luckily I am a Sabbath-keeper who keeps not the vain traditions of man in my religion but only the faith of Christ delivered once for all to the Saints. These questions got truly repetitive after a certain point.

Hi Abaxvahl, thanks for providing your view just a few comments in to your responses to those example questions with the questions added back in as it was a little hard to follow your post here with your answer in red....

Q1. Who should we believe and follow when it comes to the final and important decision of what it means to be a Christian and having a personal relationship with God; God through His Word or the teachings and tradition of men that might lead us away from God and His Word?
A1) God through His Word, for the Word says "I am the truth, the way, and the life, no one comes to the Father except by me."

Great answer! As it is written in the scriptures only Gods' Word is true and we should believe and follow them in Romans 3:4 and Acts of the Apostles 5:29. Also Jesus is the living truth and the Word of God and the only definition of truth that the scriptures also tell his we are sanctified by *John 17:17. Therefore there is no truth outside of God's Word

Q2. What is the bibles definition of truth?
A2) See A1.

Agreed as it is written "Sanctify them through the truth, your word is truth *John 17:17. So the bible's definition of truth is Jesus as Gods' Word and his spoken and written word which is truth.

Q3. Can we have Gods' grace without believing and following what Gods' Word says?
A3) No, for living from God's grace is in fact life. St. Paul says "the life I live now is by faith in the by the Son of God" (Galatians 2:20), but could he have such life without grace and life from the fountain of eternal life which is God's Word? No, for "unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood you have no life in you" (Jn 6:53) and "the water I give springs up to eternal life" (Jn 4:14), and grace is fitly compared to water due to it's abundance from God (Zechariah 12:10).

Agreed good answers. God's grace is conditional on believing and following what Gods' Word says (Faith) so that we are obedient to the faith (the Word of God). *Ephesians 2:8-9; Romans 1:5; Titus 2:11-12

Q4. Where in the bible does it say that "Sunday" is "the Lords day" of Revelation 1:10?
A4) It doesn't say that there, although it of course doesn't make it false.

I am sure you would agree though that the claim to "the Lords day" being Sunday is not biblical and is a man-made teaching and tradition of some in the early Church that is not supported in the scriptures though? That was the point of this question.

Q5. Where in the bible does it say that God's 4th commandment has now been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day of rest?
A5) Nowhere does it say this for it is impossible that such a thing be done I think, for God rested on the Sabbath and "we have a Sabbath-rest to enter into" (Hebrews 4).

The first part of your answer is correct there is no scripture anywhere in the bible that says Gods' 4th commandment has now been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a holy day of rest. This is a man-made teaching and tradition that is not supported by the scriptures. There is no such scripture however that says Jesus is a Sabbath and this is not taught in Hebrews 4. The only definition in scripture of Gods 4th commandment is "the "seventh day" of the week where it says in Exodus 20:10 For the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God...

Q6. Where does it say anywhere in the scriptures that Jesus is the Sabbath?
A6) Depends on what you mean by "say," for the Lord Jesus says "come to me and I will give you rest" but Hebrews says we have a "rest to enter into" and St. John says "whoever believes into the Lord" (John 3), some would say and I think rightly that this is connected and proves it.

See comments to A5 and the scriptural definition to God's 4th commandment in Exodus 20:10. Matthew 11:28-30 is the rest that we receive in believing and following what Gods' Word says (learn of me; take my yoke, follow me). This of course is different to Gods' 4th commandment Sabbath that is defined in the scriptures as the "seventh day" of the week *Exodus 20:10 that God made for all mankind before sin (Mark 2:27; Genesis 2:1-3) and blessed and made a holy day of rest as a memorial of creation and a celebration of God as the creator of heaven and earth.

Q7. Where does it say in the scriptures that the Sabbath (Gods 4th commandment) was ever changed from the seventh to the first day of the week?
A7) Nowhere, see A5, it can't be done.

Agreed there is no scripture for this teaching.

Q8. Where in the scripture are we told to keep the first day of the week as a holy day?
A8) Depends on what you mean by say, for it can be rightly deduced from Apostolic context that "the Lord's Day" mentioned in many places in the NT is in fact that, see A4.

Actually that is not true. There is no scripture in all of God's Word that says "the Lords day" from Revelation 1:10 is Sunday or the first day of the week. As shown earlier this is only a man-made teaching and tradition unsupported by the scriptures. There is no scripture that tells us that Sunday or the first day of the week is a holy day.

Q9. Where in the scriptures does it say the first day of the week (Sunday) is ever called a holy day?
A9-A11) See A8 and A4.

As shown in comments for A8 and A4 there is no scripture that supports this man-made teaching and tradition. Just the same as here in Q9 there is no scripture that ever calls the first day of the week a holy day.

Q12. That affirms that any of the apostles ever kept the first day as the Sabbath?
A12) It's not a Sabbath so they didn't, see A5.

Agreed there is no scripture that supports the claim that Sunday or the first day of the week is a day of rest. It is a working day just like every other day of the week (6 days you shall do all your labor...) *Exodus 20:8-11

Q13. Where from any apostolic writings of the new testament do any of the Apostles authorizes Sunday observance to be kept as a memorial of the resurrection of Jesus?
A13) See A9-A11.

As shown on the above comments there is no scripture where any of the Apostles authorize Sunday observance to be kept as a memorial of the resurrection of Jesus. This is a man-made teaching and tradition that is not supported in the scriptures.

Q14. Where in the scriptures does it say that the seventh day is no longer God's Sabbath day and 4th commandment of the 10 commandments that give us a knowledge of what sin is when broken?
A14) Nowhere, see A5.

Agreed there is no where in the scriptures where it days that God's 4th commandment is no longer God's 4th commandment as it is a part of Gods 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4

Q15. Where in the scriptures does it say that the seventh day of God's 4th commandment of the 10 commandments has been abolished?
A15) See A13.

See comments above. There is no where and not a single scripture that says God's 4th commandment of the 10 commandments that gives us a knowledge of what sin is has been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday in it's place as a holy day of rest. This is a man-made teaching and tradition that is not supported by the scriptures.

Q16. Where the apostles ever taught any convert to keep the first day of the week as a Sabbath?
A16) Nowhere, that would be a stupid claim to make, see A5.

Agreed there is no scripture where the Apostles ever taught to keep Sunday or the first day of the week in place of God's 4th commandment "seventh day" Sabbath of the 10 commandments.

Q17. Where in the scriptures is the first day was ever appointed to be kept as the Lord's Day?
A17) See A13 and A6.

See comments provided above. There is no scripture that ever appoints the first day of the week as "the Lords day".

Q18. Where in the scriptures does it say that the seventh day is the “Jewish Sabbath” or one text that calls Sunday the “Christian Sabbath”?
A18) A5.

Once again see comments above. There is no scripture that calls God's 4th commandment the Jewish Sabbath or one scripture that calls the first day of the week (Sunday) the Christian Sabbath. This is again a man-made teaching and tradition unsupported by the scriptures that is not biblical.

Q19. Where in the scriptures does it tell us to keep the first day of the week holy or to worship or rest on the first day of the week?
A19) See A15.

See comments above. There is no scripture that tells us to keep the first day of the week holy or to worship or rest. This is a man-made teaching and tradition that is not supported in the scriptures.

Q20. Where in the scriptures does it authorize anyone to set aside God's Sabbath and observe any other day?
A20) A5.

See above. There is no scripture that authorizes anyone to set aside God's 4th commandment of the 10 commandments to observe Sunday in honor of the resurrection of Jesus. This is a man-made teaching and tradition that is not supported in the scriptures.

Q22. Where is the scripture declaring that the seventh day is no longer the eternal Sabbath day?
A21) A8, A4.

See above, there is no scripture that declared Gods' 4th commandment is no longer eternal and is no longer a requirement for christian living. This is a man-made teaching and tradition that is not supported in the scriptures.

Q23. Where Sunday is now appointed to be kept as the New Testament Christian Sabbath or holy day or as a memorial of the resurrection?

Once again, there is no scripture that declared Gods' 4th commandment is no longer eternal and is no longer a requirement for christian living. This is a man-made teaching and tradition that is not supported in the scriptures.

...............

Thanks for sharing your view. So how do you think Matthew 15:2-9 fits in with this discussion and what do you think Jesus is saying there?

God bless

 

[SkyWriting]

SHOULD WE FOLLOW MAN-MADE TEACHINGS AND TRADITIONS THAT ARE AGAINST GOD'S WORD?

Hi everyone, I have been here at this forum for sometime now already and one thing I have learnt and believe is that there is every wind of doctrine out there all professing to be the truth of Gods' Word. So I am personally of the view that unless God is our guide and teacher as we prayerfully ask him to personally teach us the truth of His Words we cannot know the truth in seeking it from others unless God guides someone who knows the truth and His Spirit reveals His Word to us in this way.

I have found in much of my discussions with others here on controversial topics that once detailed scripture responses are posted and it is shown through the scriptures that one one once believed to be true in the scriptures may not be true many seek support for their teachings and traditions that cannot be supported from the bible alone to sources outside of the bible that contradict the teachings of the bible appealing to man-made teachings and tradition over the Word of God.

WHAT IS THE ONLY STANDARD OF TRUTH IN THE BIBLE?

Q1. Who should we believe and follow when it comes to the final and important decision of what it means to be a Christian and having a personal relationship with God; God through His Word or the teachings and tradition of men that might lead us away from God and His Word?

Q2. What is the bibles definition of truth?

Q3. Can we have Gods' grace without believing and following what Gods' Word says?

SOME QUESTIONS THAT DEMONSTRATE MAN-MADE TEACHING UNSUPPORTED BY SCRIPTURE.

Q4. Where in the bible does it say that "Sunday" is "the Lords day" of Revelation 1:10?

Q5. Where in the bible does it say that God's 4th commandment has now been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day of rest?

Q6. Where does it say anywhere in the scriptures that Jesus is the Sabbath?

Q7. Where does it say in the scriptures that the Sabbath (Gods 4th commandment) was ever changed from the seventh to the first day of the week?

Q8. Where in the scripture are we told to keep the first day of the week as a holy day?

Q9. Where in the scriptures does it say the first day of the week (Sunday) is ever called a holy day?

Q10. Where in the scriptures does it to keep the first day in honor of the resurrection of Christ?

Q11. Where in the scriptures is the first day of the week (Sunday) ever given any sacred name?

Q12. That affirms that any of the apostles ever kept the first day as the Sabbath?

Q13. Where from any apostolic writings of the new testament do any of the Apostles authorizes Sunday observance to be kept as a memorial of the resurrection of Jesus?

Q14. Where in the scriptures does it say that the seventh day is no longer God's Sabbath day and 4th commandment of the 10 commandments that give us a knowledge of what sin is when broken?

Q15. Where in the scriptures does it say that the seventh day of God's 4th commandment of the 10 commandments has been abolished?

Q16. Where the apostles ever taught any convert to keep the first day of the week as a Sabbath?

Q17. Where in the scriptures is the first day was ever appointed to be kept as the Lord's Day?

Q18. Where in the scriptures does it say that the seventh day is the “Jewish Sabbath” or one text that calls Sunday the “Christian Sabbath”?

Q19. Where in the scriptures does it tell us to keep the first day of the week holy or to worship or rest on the first day of the week?

Q20. Where in the scriptures does it authorize anyone to set aside God's Sabbath and observe any other day?

Q21. Where is the scripture showing any of the apostles keeping the first day of the week as as a memorial of the resurrection?

Q22. Where is the scripture declaring that the seventh day is no longer the eternal Sabbath day?

Q23. Where Sunday is now appointed to be kept as the New Testament Christian Sabbath or holy day or as a memorial of the resurrection?

....................

Friendly discussion please with your answers supported by scripture. The main topic of the OP is in regards to who should we believe and follow; God or man? There is in interesting passage of the scriptures in the very Words of Jesus in Matthew 15:2-9 where Jesus says that if we knowingly follow man-made teachings and tradition that lead us away from God and His Word to break the commandments of God we are not worshiping God. If this is the case this begs the question once more if we are following man-made teachings and traditions handed down from the Roman Catholic Church who are we worshiping?

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

Gods bless.

Q3. Yes the Bible is not required reading.
Romans 1:20
For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Remember one big fact.

Before the Bible was assembled, or scripture was widely available, people, had to rely on the preaching of God's word via oral Traditions handed down from the Apostles!

Actual scriptures were few and far between. It wasnt until the invention of the printing press that the Bible became widely available. And even then, vast majorities of the populous were illiterate. They had to be taught / preached to!!

Nowadays we have millions of so called 'experts' on Gods word! Each with their own interpretations, opinions, ideas of what scripture is saying.

Actually kind of but not really as it is written that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God *Romans 10:17. Before the written Word there was the spoken Word of God. Many interpretations of Gods' Word is only a fulfillment of the prophecies of the end days. That does not mean that there is not one truth of Gods' Word revealed by the Spirit of God to His people *John 14:16 and that truth is outside of Gods' Word in the teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God which Jesus talks about in Matthew 15:2-9.

Take Care

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Q3. Yes the Bible is not required reading.
Romans 1:20
For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.

If faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God *Romans 10:17 how can you have faith if you have no Word? For without faith it is impossible to please God for he that comes to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.*Hebrews 11:6 and whatsoever is not of faith is sin *Romans 14:23

Take Care.

 

[Brian Mcnamee]

SHOULD WE FOLLOW MAN-MADE TEACHINGS AND TRADITIONS THAT ARE AGAINST GOD'S WORD?

Hi everyone, I have been here at this forum for sometime now already and one thing I have learnt and believe is that there is every wind of doctrine out there all professing to be the truth of Gods' Word. So I am personally of the view that unless God is our guide and teacher as we prayerfully ask him to personally teach us the truth of His Words we cannot know the truth in seeking it from others unless God guides someone who knows the truth and His Spirit reveals His Word to us in this way.

I have found in much of my discussions with others here on controversial topics that once detailed scripture responses are posted and it is shown through the scriptures that one one once believed to be true in the scriptures may not be true many seek support for their teachings and traditions that cannot be supported from the bible alone to sources outside of the bible that contradict the teachings of the bible appealing to man-made teachings and tradition over the Word of God.

WHAT IS THE ONLY STANDARD OF TRUTH IN THE BIBLE?

Q1. Who should we believe and follow when it comes to the final and important decision of what it means to be a Christian and having a personal relationship with God; God through His Word or the teachings and tradition of men that might lead us away from God and His Word?

Q2. What is the bibles definition of truth?

Q3. Can we have Gods' grace without believing and following what Gods' Word says?

SOME QUESTIONS THAT DEMONSTRATE MAN-MADE TEACHING UNSUPPORTED BY SCRIPTURE.

Q4. Where in the bible does it say that "Sunday" is "the Lords day" of Revelation 1:10?

Q5. Where in the bible does it say that God's 4th commandment has now been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day of rest?

Q6. Where does it say anywhere in the scriptures that Jesus is the Sabbath?

Q7. Where does it say in the scriptures that the Sabbath (Gods 4th commandment) was ever changed from the seventh to the first day of the week?

Q8. Where in the scripture are we told to keep the first day of the week as a holy day?

Q9. Where in the scriptures does it say the first day of the week (Sunday) is ever called a holy day?

Q10. Where in the scriptures does it to keep the first day in honor of the resurrection of Christ?

Q11. Where in the scriptures is the first day of the week (Sunday) ever given any sacred name?

Q12. That affirms that any of the apostles ever kept the first day as the Sabbath?

Q13. Where from any apostolic writings of the new testament do any of the Apostles authorizes Sunday observance to be kept as a memorial of the resurrection of Jesus?

Q14. Where in the scriptures does it say that the seventh day is no longer God's Sabbath day and 4th commandment of the 10 commandments that give us a knowledge of what sin is when broken?

Q15. Where in the scriptures does it say that the seventh day of God's 4th commandment of the 10 commandments has been abolished?

Q16. Where the apostles ever taught any convert to keep the first day of the week as a Sabbath?

Q17. Where in the scriptures is the first day was ever appointed to be kept as the Lord's Day?

Q18. Where in the scriptures does it say that the seventh day is the “Jewish Sabbath” or one text that calls Sunday the “Christian Sabbath”?

Q19. Where in the scriptures does it tell us to keep the first day of the week holy or to worship or rest on the first day of the week?

Q20. Where in the scriptures does it authorize anyone to set aside God's Sabbath and observe any other day?

Q21. Where is the scripture showing any of the apostles keeping the first day of the week as as a memorial of the resurrection?

Q22. Where is the scripture declaring that the seventh day is no longer the eternal Sabbath day?

Q23. Where Sunday is now appointed to be kept as the New Testament Christian Sabbath or holy day or as a memorial of the resurrection?

....................

Friendly discussion please with your answers supported by scripture. The main topic of the OP is in regards to who should we believe and follow; God or man? There is in interesting passage of the scriptures in the very Words of Jesus in Matthew 15:2-9 where Jesus says that if we knowingly follow man-made teachings and tradition that lead us away from God and His Word to break the commandments of God we are not worshiping God. If this is the case this begs the question once more if we are following man-made teachings and traditions handed down from the Roman Catholic Church who are we worshiping?

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

Gods bless.

you can eat pie once a week or 7 days a week and the pie maker is happy if you are eating pie the more the better and he does not care what day you eat it on.

The LORD rested on the 7th day and created the Sabbath for man. Jesus is LORD of the Sabbath and and any who have been joined to Christ have entered into that rest. Now scripture says one man esteems one day above another and another sees all days alike. Let each by fully convinced in his own mind. This is a good point if someone wants to keep Sat or Sunday and they are convinced in their minds to do so then let them. We are supposed to die daily to ourselves and pick up our cross daily.

 

[Lost4words]

Actually kind of but not really as it is written that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God *Romans 10:17. Before the written Word there was the spoken Word of God. Many interpretations of Gods' Word is only a fulfillment of the prophecies of the end days. That does not mean that there is one truth of Gods' Word revealed by the Spirit of God to His people *John 14:16 and that truth is not outside of Gods' Word in the teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God which Jesus talks about in Matthew 15:2-9.

Take Care

In other words you agree with my post.

God bless you

 

[Freth]

There is a sinful "sweet spot" to be found in false doctrine, because it takes away personal responsibility by its very design. This is no fluke, it's Satan's subtle working within the church, to deceive, to lead astray God's people.

I think it's human nature for people to defend their long-held beliefs, even if they are not based in fact. They don't want to hear the truth, because the truth is inconvenient. The truth requires the personal responsibility that they've neglected for so long. They will try every defense, come up empty, and still deny the truth found in scripture.

A person has to want to come to the truth, otherwise they will deny endlessly, even though they are proven wrong through scripture. If they are comfortable in their place, they will stay there until they have a heart change.

That doesn't mean we shouldn't try, we should try and try and then try some more, and let the Holy Spirit do His work.

 

[Tom 1]

SHOULD WE FOLLOW MAN-MADE TEACHINGS AND TRADITIONS THAT ARE AGAINST GOD'S WORD?

Hi everyone, I have been here at this forum for sometime now already and one thing I have learnt and believe is that there is every wind of doctrine out there all professing to be the truth of Gods' Word. So I am personally of the view that unless God is our guide and teacher as we prayerfully ask him to personally teach us the truth of His Words we cannot know the truth in seeking it from others unless God guides someone who knows the truth and His Spirit reveals His Word to us in this way.

I have found in much of my discussions with others here on controversial topics that once detailed scripture responses are posted and it is shown through the scriptures that one one once believed to be true in the scriptures may not be true many seek support for their teachings and traditions that cannot be supported from the bible alone to sources outside of the bible that contradict the teachings of the bible appealing to man-made teachings and tradition over the Word of God.

WHAT IS THE ONLY STANDARD OF TRUTH IN THE BIBLE?

Q1. Who should we believe and follow when it comes to the final and important decision of what it means to be a Christian and having a personal relationship with God; God through His Word or the teachings and tradition of men that might lead us away from God and His Word?

Q2. What is the bibles definition of truth?

Q3. Can we have Gods' grace without believing and following what Gods' Word says?

SOME QUESTIONS THAT DEMONSTRATE MAN-MADE TEACHING UNSUPPORTED BY SCRIPTURE.

Q4. Where in the bible does it say that "Sunday" is "the Lords day" of Revelation 1:10?

Q5. Where in the bible does it say that God's 4th commandment has now been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day of rest?

Q6. Where does it say anywhere in the scriptures that Jesus is the Sabbath?

Q7. Where does it say in the scriptures that the Sabbath (Gods 4th commandment) was ever changed from the seventh to the first day of the week?

Q8. Where in the scripture are we told to keep the first day of the week as a holy day?

Q9. Where in the scriptures does it say the first day of the week (Sunday) is ever called a holy day?

Q10. Where in the scriptures does it to keep the first day in honor of the resurrection of Christ?

Q11. Where in the scriptures is the first day of the week (Sunday) ever given any sacred name?

Q12. That affirms that any of the apostles ever kept the first day as the Sabbath?

Q13. Where from any apostolic writings of the new testament do any of the Apostles authorizes Sunday observance to be kept as a memorial of the resurrection of Jesus?

Q14. Where in the scriptures does it say that the seventh day is no longer God's Sabbath day and 4th commandment of the 10 commandments that give us a knowledge of what sin is when broken?

Q15. Where in the scriptures does it say that the seventh day of God's 4th commandment of the 10 commandments has been abolished?

Q16. Where the apostles ever taught any convert to keep the first day of the week as a Sabbath?

Q17. Where in the scriptures is the first day was ever appointed to be kept as the Lord's Day?

Q18. Where in the scriptures does it say that the seventh day is the “Jewish Sabbath” or one text that calls Sunday the “Christian Sabbath”?

Q19. Where in the scriptures does it tell us to keep the first day of the week holy or to worship or rest on the first day of the week?

Q20. Where in the scriptures does it authorize anyone to set aside God's Sabbath and observe any other day?

Q21. Where is the scripture showing any of the apostles keeping the first day of the week as as a memorial of the resurrection?

Q22. Where is the scripture declaring that the seventh day is no longer the eternal Sabbath day?

Q23. Where Sunday is now appointed to be kept as the New Testament Christian Sabbath or holy day or as a memorial of the resurrection?

....................

Friendly discussion please with your answers supported by scripture. The main topic of the OP is in regards to who should we believe and follow; God or man? There is in interesting passage of the scriptures in the very Words of Jesus in Matthew 15:2-9 where Jesus says that if we knowingly follow man-made teachings and tradition that lead us away from God and His Word to break the commandments of God we are not worshiping God. If this is the case this begs the question once more if we are following man-made teachings and traditions handed down from the Roman Catholic Church who are we worshiping?

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

Gods bless.

What isn’t a tradition of men?

 

[BeyondET]

and that truth is not outside of Gods' Word in the teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God which Jesus talks about in Matthew 15:2-9.

Take Care

Seems Jesus was referring to one commandment the 5th honor thy father and mother in Mathew 15:5-9 that is the one commandment the subject is on. doesn't seem to imply multiple commandments

 

[BeyondET]

Hi Abaxvahl, thanks for providing your view just a few comments in to your responses to those example questions with the questions added back in as it was a little hard to follow your post here with your answer in red....

Q1. Who should we believe and follow when it comes to the final and important decision of what it means to be a Christian and having a personal relationship with God; God through His Word or the teachings and tradition of men that might lead us away from God and His Word?
A1) God through His Word, for the Word says "I am the truth, the way, and the life, no one comes to the Father except by me."

Great answer! As it is written in the scriptures only Gods' Word is true and we should believe and follow them in Romans 3:4 and Acts of the Apostles 5:29. Also Jesus is the living truth and the Word of God and the only definition of truth that the scriptures also tell his we are sanctified by *John 17:17. Therefore there is no truth outside of God's Word

Q2. What is the bibles definition of truth?
A2) See A1.

Agreed as it is written "Sanctify them through the truth, your word is truth *John 17:17. So the bible's definition of truth is Jesus as Gods' Word and his spoken and written word which is truth.

Q3. Can we have Gods' grace without believing and following what Gods' Word says?
A3) No, for living from God's grace is in fact life. St. Paul says "the life I live now is by faith in the by the Son of God" (Galatians 2:20), but could he have such life without grace and life from the fountain of eternal life which is God's Word? No, for "unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood you have no life in you" (Jn 6:53) and "the water I give springs up to eternal life" (Jn 4:14), and grace is fitly compared to water due to it's abundance from God (Zechariah 12:10).

Agreed good answers. God's grace is conditional on believing and following what Gods' Word says (Faith) so that we are obedient to the faith (the Word of God). *Ephesians 2:8-9; Romans 1:5; Titus 2:11-12

Q4. Where in the bible does it say that "Sunday" is "the Lords day" of Revelation 1:10?
A4) It doesn't say that there, although it of course doesn't make it false.

I am sure you would agree though that the claim to "the Lords day" being Sunday is not biblical and is a man-made teaching and tradition of some in the early Church that is not supported in the scriptures though? That was the point of this question.

Q5. Where in the bible does it say that God's 4th commandment has now been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day of rest?
A5) Nowhere does it say this for it is impossible that such a thing be done I think, for God rested on the Sabbath and "we have a Sabbath-rest to enter into" (Hebrews 4).

The first part of your answer is correct there is no scripture anywhere in the bible that says Gods' 4th commandment has now been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a holy day of rest. This is a man-made teaching and tradition that is not supported by the scriptures. There is no such scripture however that says Jesus is a Sabbath and this is not taught in Hebrews 4. The only definition in scripture of Gods 4th commandment is "the "seventh day" of the week where it says in Exodus 20:10 For the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God...

Q6. Where does it say anywhere in the scriptures that Jesus is the Sabbath?
A6) Depends on what you mean by "say," for the Lord Jesus says "come to me and I will give you rest" but Hebrews says we have a "rest to enter into" and St. John says "whoever believes into the Lord" (John 3), some would say and I think rightly that this is connected and proves it.

See comments to A5 and the scriptural definition to God's 4th commandment in Exodus 20:10. Matthew 11:28-30 is the rest that we receive in believing and following what Gods' Word says (learn of me; take my yoke, follow me). This of course is different to Gods' 4th commandment Sabbath that is defined in the scriptures as the "seventh day" of the week *Exodus 20:10 that God made for all mankind before sin (Mark 2:27; Genesis 2:1-3) and blessed and made a holy day of rest as a memorial of creation and a celebration of God as the creator of heaven and earth.

Q7. Where does it say in the scriptures that the Sabbath (Gods 4th commandment) was ever changed from the seventh to the first day of the week?
A7) Nowhere, see A5, it can't be done.

Agreed there is no scripture for this teaching.

Q8. Where in the scripture are we told to keep the first day of the week as a holy day?
A8) Depends on what you mean by say, for it can be rightly deduced from Apostolic context that "the Lord's Day" mentioned in many places in the NT is in fact that, see A4.

Actually that is not true. There is no scripture in all of God's Word that says "the Lords day" from Revelation 1:10 is Sunday or the first day of the week. As shown earlier this is only a man-made teaching and tradition unsupported by the scriptures. There is no scripture that tells us that Sunday or the first day of the week is a holy day.

Q9. Where in the scriptures does it say the first day of the week (Sunday) is ever called a holy day?
A9-A11) See A8 and A4.

As shown in comments for A8 and A4 there is no scripture that supports this man-made teaching and tradition. Just the same as here in Q9 there is no scripture that ever calls the first day of the week a holy day.

Q12. That affirms that any of the apostles ever kept the first day as the Sabbath?
A12) It's not a Sabbath so they didn't, see A5.

Agreed there is no scripture that supports the claim that Sunday or the first day of the week is a day of rest. It is a working day just like every other day of the week (6 days you shall do all your labor...) *Exodus 20:8-11

Q13. Where from any apostolic writings of the new testament do any of the Apostles authorizes Sunday observance to be kept as a memorial of the resurrection of Jesus?
A13) See A9-A11.

As shown on the above comments there is no scripture where any of the Apostles authorize Sunday observance to be kept as a memorial of the resurrection of Jesus. This is a man-made teaching and tradition that is not supported in the scriptures.

Q14. Where in the scriptures does it say that the seventh day is no longer God's Sabbath day and 4th commandment of the 10 commandments that give us a knowledge of what sin is when broken?
A14) Nowhere, see A5.

Agreed there is no where in the scriptures where it days that God's 4th commandment is no longer God's 4th commandment as it is a part of Gods 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4

Q15. Where in the scriptures does it say that the seventh day of God's 4th commandment of the 10 commandments has been abolished?
A15) See A13.

See comments above. There is no where and not a single scripture that says God's 4th commandment of the 10 commandments that gives us a knowledge of what sin is has been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday in it's place as a holy day of rest. This is a man-made teaching and tradition that is not supported by the scriptures.

Q16. Where the apostles ever taught any convert to keep the first day of the week as a Sabbath?
A16) Nowhere, that would be a stupid claim to make, see A5.

Agreed there is no scripture where the Apostles ever taught to keep Sunday or the first day of the week in place of God's 4th commandment "seventh day" Sabbath of the 10 commandments.

Q17. Where in the scriptures is the first day was ever appointed to be kept as the Lord's Day?
A17) See A13 and A6.

See comments provided above. There is no scripture that ever appoints the first day of the week as "the Lords day".

Q18. Where in the scriptures does it say that the seventh day is the “Jewish Sabbath” or one text that calls Sunday the “Christian Sabbath”?
A18) A5.

Once again see comments above. There is no scripture that calls God's 4th commandment the Jewish Sabbath or one scripture that calls the first day of the week (Sunday) the Christian Sabbath. This is again a man-made teaching and tradition unsupported by the scriptures that is not biblical.

Q19. Where in the scriptures does it tell us to keep the first day of the week holy or to worship or rest on the first day of the week?
A19) See A15.

See comments above. There is no scripture that tells us to keep the first day of the week holy or to worship or rest. This is a man-made teaching and tradition that is not supported in the scriptures.

Q20. Where in the scriptures does it authorize anyone to set aside God's Sabbath and observe any other day?
A20) A5.

See above. There is no scripture that authorizes anyone to set aside God's 4th commandment of the 10 commandments to observe Sunday in honor of the resurrection of Jesus. This is a man-made teaching and tradition that is not supported in the scriptures.

Q22. Where is the scripture declaring that the seventh day is no longer the eternal Sabbath day?
A21) A8, A4.

See above, there is no scripture that declared Gods' 4th commandment is no longer eternal and is no longer a requirement for christian living. This is a man-made teaching and tradition that is not supported in the scriptures.

Q23. Where Sunday is now appointed to be kept as the New Testament Christian Sabbath or holy day or as a memorial of the resurrection?

Once again, there is no scripture that declared Gods' 4th commandment is no longer eternal and is no longer a requirement for christian living. This is a man-made teaching and tradition that is not supported in the scriptures.

...............

Thanks for sharing your view. So how do you think Matthew 15:2-9 fits in with this discussion and what do you think Jesus is saying there?

God bless

Seems not much of what Jesus was saying about the 5th commandment in Matt15 was a subject of the 4th commandment

 

[Brian Mcnamee]

There is a sinful "sweet spot" to be found in false doctrine, because it takes away personal responsibility by its very design. This is no fluke, it's Satan's subtle working within the church, to deceive, to lead astray God's people.

I think it's human nature for people to defend their long-held beliefs, even if they are not based in fact. They don't want to hear the truth, because the truth is inconvenient. The truth requires the personal responsibility that they've neglected for so long. They will try every defense, come up empty, and still deny the truth found in scripture.

A person has to want to come to the truth, otherwise they will deny endlessly, even though they are proven wrong through scripture. If they are comfortable in their place, they will stay there until they have a heart change.

That doesn't mean we shouldn't try, we should try and try and then try some more, and let the Holy Spirit do His work.

So I guy is a reprobate sinner and involved in all sorts of sins and hears the gospel and forsakes all his sins and now his life is exemplifying the fruit of the spirit where it was once totally carnal you would approach him and tell him he is deceived by Satan if he is going to church any other day than Saturday.

16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: d]">[d]adultery, e]">[e]fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, f]">[f]murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 g]">[g]gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24 And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.


That is a joke and why SDA gets most converts from other churches preaching the 7th day than reaching lost souls who do not know the LORD.

 

[Freth]

So I guy is a reprobate sinner and involved in all sorts of sins and hears the gospel and forsakes all his sins and now his life is exemplifying the fruit of the spirit where it was once totally carnal you would approach him and tell him he is deceived by Satan if he is going to church any other day than Saturday.

What does scripture say about it?

Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.​

 

[BeyondET]

What does scripture say about it?

Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.​

That makes sense, which those two covers them all,

Matthew 22
40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

 

[Blade]

It would seem denominations do play a part here. Were here to please not not man. The Sabbath was made for man not man for the Sabbath.. that should answer allot yet it does not. Jews and the Sabbath their manmade regulations and multitudinous, minute restrictions... pffft at the start they didn't change the Sabbath to Sunday.. maybe hundreds of years later "some" tried. Forgive me but its not the world or God hammering and adding burdens, guilt, calling it sin no its those that love Jesus so much

Its not your truth. He is the way He is the truth He is the life. He knows the heart we do not and YES that really comes into play even here. They are not your creation..its not your kids its His. Its not if this group or this person is keeping the Sabbath.. what are YOU doing about it? Yeah focus on you and know that GOD is really able to take care of His children. "MAN MADE TRADITIONS AND TEACHINGS" odd how that only goes one way.. as if it can't be flipped.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

There is a sinful "sweet spot" to be found in false doctrine, because it takes away personal responsibility by its very design. This is no fluke, it's Satan's subtle working within the church, to deceive, to lead astray God's people.

I think it's human nature for people to defend their long-held beliefs, even if they are not based in fact. They don't want to hear the truth, because the truth is inconvenient. The truth requires the personal responsibility that they've neglected for so long. They will try every defense, come up empty, and still deny the truth found in scripture.

A person has to want to come to the truth, otherwise they will deny endlessly, even though they are proven wrong through scripture. If they are comfortable in their place, they will stay there until they have a heart change.

That doesn't mean we shouldn't try, we should try and try and then try some more, and let the Holy Spirit do His work.

Thanks Freth, I liked reading your view from this post and think there is a lot of truth in what you have posted here supported in the scriptures (e.g. Matthew 9:12-13; John 3:18-21; John 3:3-7). How do you think God gives us this heart change so that we can know the truth of His Word and want to believe and follow it in your view or what is the mirror that we should look into to see who we really are?

God bless