ACLU apparently wants abortion fair to all humans in the procedure not just women??

[BobRyan]

from:
Hilarious Orwellian Attempt by ACLU to Redact “Women” from RBG Quote. – Creative Minority Report

“The ACLU is also pro-choice like Bader Ginsburg was, rather than just posting her original quote… they changed her words to

‘the decision whether or not to bear a child is central to a [person’s] life in brackets, to [their] well-being and dignity in brackets, when the government controls that decision for [people], [they are] being treated as less than a fully adult human.”​

Did the ACLU just shoot themselves in the foot by including the dignity of all the "humans" affected by an abortion in the scope of that statement above - instead of ignoring the baby and just leaving a myopic focus on "the woman"??

 

[BobRyan]

We can agree that the baby was not treated as a "fully adult human" in that abortion. But - the baby is still a person and a human. The ACLU makes it appear they favor dignity for all humans in that procedure not just the woman - in the way they edit RGB's quote.

Did they admit to something "accidentally"?

Freudian slip?

As I note in a post later on - in this thread -- There is a children's story titled "The Emperor's New Clothes" by Hans Christian Andersen about a king who had no clothes but nobody was allowed to "state the obvious".

The ACLU statement "editing" RGB - appears to be an unwitting slip on their part - almost to the point of "admitting" to what they were sworn to not "see".

 

[Yttrium]

We can agree that the baby was not treated as a "fully adult human" in that abortion. But - the baby is still a person and a human. The ACLU makes it appear they favor dignity for all humans in that procedure not just the woman - in the way they edit RGB's quote.

Did they admit to something "accidentally"?

Freudian slip?

I'm not seeing that in the quote. A fetus is not legally a person, the people making the decisions are the ones that are pregnant, and of course a fetus isn't an adult human. I don't get where you're coming from here.

 

[BobRyan]

I'm not seeing that in the quote. A fetus is not legally a person,

If that were actually true - then no one could ever have been charged with double homicide for killing a pregnant woman.

State Laws on Fetal Homicide and Penalty-enhancement for Crimes Against Pregnant Women

"Currently, at least 38 states have fetal homicide laws: Alabama, Alaska, Arizona, Arkansas, California, Florida, Georgia, Idaho, Illinois, Indiana, Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, Maryland, Massachusetts, Michigan, Minnesota, Mississippi, Missouri, Montana, Nebraska, Nevada, New Hampshire, North Carolina, North Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, South Carolina, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, Virginia, Washington, West Virginia and Wisconsin. At least 29 states have fetal homicide laws that apply to the earliest stages of pregnancy..."
​

===========================

from: Fetal Homicide Laws: The Policing of Women's Bodies

In 1972, a mother and her eight-and-a-half month old fetus were killed when a car collided with a Greyhound bus. In the case that followed, Mone v. Greyhound Lines, Inc., the court held that a fetus is a person for the purposes of the state’s wrongful death statute.3 This decision was highly influential in the 1984 Commonwealth v. Cass case in which the Supreme Court of Massachusetts ruled that a viable fetus is a person under the state’s vehicular homicide statute.4 These rulings set the framework for later legislation intended to prosecute violent acts that resulted in fetal death or injury.

============================

From a pure science POV - the baby is a person "no matter where it is located".

By definition "a person" exists independent of location. You cannot step into your closet and at that point "cease to be a person" simply because of your location. Biologically - you are still "a person" - a human being. A sentient form of life.

============

I once had this same discussion with a chinese atheist co-worker of mine who insisted that the "location of the baby" determined whether or not it was a crime to kill the baby. I laughed and said to him "surely you realize that makes no sense from a scientific POV don't you?" - At the time I thought it reflected an unusually low regard for human life held as a popular view in communist China.

Today I don't find that view limited to Communist China any more.

 

[chevyontheriver]

We can agree that the baby was not treated as a "fully adult human" in that abortion. But - the baby is still a person and a human. The ACLU makes it appear they favor dignity for all humans in that procedure not just the woman - in the way they edit RGB's quote.

Did they admit to something "accidentally"?

Freudian slip?

Nah. It's just that 'men' can have babies now. Or at least have pregnancies needing termination. It wouldn't be politically correct to call them actual babies. Just like 'men' can need abortions. The whole censorship of Ginsberg is that even she was not woke enough for today's highly advanced standard.

 

[Yttrium]

If that were actually true - then no one could ever have been charged with double homicide for killing a pregnant woman.

Sure they can. States can define homicide the way they like.

In 1972, a mother and her eight-and-a-half month old fetus were killed when a car collided with a Greyhound bus. In the case that followed, Mone v. Greyhound Lines, Inc., the court held that a fetus is a person for the purposes of the state’s wrongful death statute.3 This decision was highly influential in the 1984 Commonwealth v. Cass case in which the Supreme Court of Massachusetts ruled that a viable fetus is a person under the state’s vehicular homicide statute.4 These rulings set the framework for later legislation intended to prosecute violent acts that resulted in fetal death or injury.

Okay, I stand corrected on the personhood thing. Different states define it differently. Under the US Constitution, a person is a human that has been born. A fetus doesn't qualify. I know that some states have been trying (unsuccessfully) to push personhood back to conception, but viability currently seems to be the successful option.

From a pure science POV - the baby is a person "no matter where it is located".

By definition "a person" exists independent of location. You cannot step into your closet and at that point "cease to be a person" simply because of your location. Biologically - you are still "a person" - a human being. A sentient form of life.

I don't recall science having a definition of "person". You may be thinking of "human being". A fetus is certainly a human being at any stage of development (despite whatever a certain other regular poster may claim). As far as the Constitution is concerned, though, it doesn't legally become a person until it's born. It's the legal definition that counts for legal purposes. As you noted, states can have their own definition for their own laws, but (for the time being) only as long as they don't conflict with Roe v. Wade.

 

[RocksInMyHead]

Did the ACLU just shoot themselves in the foot by including he dignity of all the "humans" affected by an abortion instead of ignoring the baby and just leaving a myopic focus on "the woman"??

No, they're being inclusive of trans individuals who may identify as male while still possessing a fully functional uterus.

 

[anna ~ grace]

No, they're being inclusive of trans individuals who may identify as male while still possessing a fully functional uterus.

I identify as African-American while having ancestry which was assigned European at birth.

 

[RocksInMyHead]

I identify as African-American while having ancestry which was assigned European at birth.

Good for you?

 

[BobRyan]

No, they're being inclusive of trans individuals who may identify as male while still possessing a fully functional uterus.

I realize they have their own motives - but the language of "person" and saying that all persons must be given respect and rights - instead of just "women" - has opened the door to consideration of "the person being killed" in that "choice" by the woman.

 

[BobRyan]

I identify as African-American while having ancestry which was assigned European at birth.

I identify as king of all sentient life in this solar system on Tuesday afternoons. But I have yet to receive proper recognition in the form of large letters painted on prominent street crossings. (Which is fast becoming the bane of my existence on Tuesday afternoons when I am reminded of it once again. I can't be truly satisfied until that "fix" is in. )

 

[anna ~ grace]

I identify as king of all sentient life in this solar system on Tuesday afternoons. But I have yet to receive proper recognition in the form of large letters painted on prominent street crossings.

I know, right? How incredibly rude and insensitive of people not to publicly validate your feelings and acknowledge that you are, in fact, the King of All Sentient Life in This Solar System when you say so. Sad. If you sue someone, or attempt to ruin their life by leaking eight seconds of out-of-context footage of them saying or doing something arguably offensive to the media, that’ll totally fix everything. Woot.

 

[BobRyan]

I know, right? How incredibly rude and insensitive of people not to publicly validate your feelings and acknowledge that you are, in fact, the King of All Sentient Life in This Solar System when you say so. Sad. If you sue someone, or attempt to ruin their life by leaking eight seconds of out-of-context footage of them saying or doing something arguably offensive to the media, that’ll totally fix everything. Woot.

amen!

I saw a meme the other day that said "just because you are offended does not make your complaint accurate or just". Children in pre-school often get "offended" but that does not mean their every complaint was justified or mature.

 

[renniks]

I identify as a millionaire with a huge ranch and no need to ever work again. But no one seems to care.

 

[Freth]

I'm a man trapped in a man's body.

 

[DaisyDay]

Oh goody - let’s ridicule the transgendered people.

 

[Ana the Ist]

from:
Hilarious Orwellian Attempt by ACLU to Redact “Women” from RBG Quote. – Creative Minority Report

“The ACLU is also pro-choice like Bader Ginsburg was, rather than just posting her original quote… they changed her words to

‘the decision whether or not to bear a child is central to a [person’s] life in brackets, to [their] well-being and dignity in brackets, when the government controls that decision for [people], [they are] being treated as less than a fully adult human.”​

Did the ACLU just shoot themselves in the foot by including the dignity of all the "humans" affected by an abortion in the scope of that statement above - instead of ignoring the baby and just leaving a myopic focus on "the woman"??

I think men should be able to do the same....not physically of course, but financially.

 

[Arcangl86]

Oh goody - let’s ridicule the transgendered people.

And you expected otherwise because?

 

[BobRyan]

Oh goody - let’s ridicule the transgendered people.

Is it "transgender" or "in verb form" transgendered people or is it the commonsense-to-the-wind political agitating left fringe that is being spoken of?

 

[DaisyDay]

Is it "transgender" or "in verb form" transgendered people or is it the commonsense-to-the-wind political agitating left fringe that is being spoken of?

People. I am speaking of people. "Transgendered" is an adjective to describe the noun, "people".

Is that really unclear or simply more ridicule of certain people?