Why did God not start humans by making us like Jesus?

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com7fy8

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Then why would God not just create us better in the first place? And why couldn't God give us that understanding without putting us at risk of eternal damnation? And why are there people who say, "Yes, give me the evil so I can do this very important job which helps you make your point and helps you save more people," and why are these people who volunteer to do the dangerous and horrible work so others might escape it sent to damnation for it?
My opinion > He started from "the same lump" (Romans 9:21) to make all humans. So, from the same basic stuff there are humans becoming "worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived" (2 Timothy 3:13), while others are growing in Jesus and how He has people loving.

So, ones started with their basic human stuff and then got worse, while others have gone the bad way but then changed to be with Jesus. In any case God started them all at the human level, using the human stuff of "the same lump".

They did not start better, because they did not first come from Jesus, then.

And I already offered that eternal damnation is a measure for controlling evil.

And when I said evil people volunteer to be sewer buckets of Satanic stuff like unforgiveness and lusts and worry and other degrading and cruel stuff, I meant volunteering in sort of a sarcastic way. Actually, they are stuck with their nasty stuff and weakness. And this is enforced by their pride which is so intimate with their unforgiveness and other degrading and anti-love things, so people are in denial and very stubbornly refusing to trust Jesus to free and correct them of their deep trouble.

But Jesus does call to "all" >

"'Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.'" (Matthew 11:28-29)

And, actually, they are not in danger of damnation; but they are already living in it. They have in themselves stuff which will be in hell; so they are already sampling. And, yes, Jesus died so we do not continue so, plus He calls to "all" to have rest with Him. And this rest is better than what any Star Wars god can give you, I will offer.
 
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Kylie

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You're the one who said the "right way" would be like Jesus. Back in the other thread, you said:

Yes, but we can not please Him by staying the way we are; so we need how our Heavenly Father changes us to be like Jesus who is so pleasing.

So you've stated that God created us so we would please him, but that we can't please him the way we are, and that we need to become more like Jesus. So, going off the way you've defined it, why didn't God make us like Jesus?
 
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RDKirk

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For a Christian, "the right way" would mean like Jesus.

Now, we have ones who say we needed to have "free will", so we can choose to love God. But Jesus is perfect and incapable of sinning, yet quite able to love the way God wants.

So . . . then . . . why didn't our Heavenly Father start us all off like Jesus??

I think this could be what Kylie is asking, and she is welcome to speak for herself.

He did make Adam like Jesus. Or as much like Jesus as could be done, inasmuch as Jesus is the incarnation of the uncreated Son.
 
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Kylie

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He did make Adam like Jesus. Or as much like Jesus as could be done, inasmuch as Jesus is the incarnation of the uncreated Son.

I would have thought that for an omnipotent being, "as close as possible" would mean completely identical in every way.
 
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RDKirk

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Sure, and He is vastly older than you or me, by many many orders of magnitude at least. He was already with God long before this world, Earth, came into existence, and probably before this universe also it seems, as from the wording we read: "He was with God in the beginning" is the wording. That seems to say He was already with God in the beginning, so older than this universe. Either way, we are so vastly younger in comparison.

1 Colossians tells us that everything that was created, was created through the Son. The Son emerged as the first entity into the created universe, and through Him everything else was created. In a way, Jesus was speaking literally when He said that he is the "gate." From the mind of the Father into the created universe, everything went through the Son.
 
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RDKirk

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I would have thought that for an omnipotent being, "as close as possible" would mean completely identical in every way.

First, regarding the meaning of "omnipotent." The term "omnipotent" was already in use by the Romans to describe the legal authority of the emperor. The emperor was called the omnipotens, to mean that all governmental authority flowed from him. His generals, governors, the Senators, et cetera had no power of their own. Whatever power they had flowed to them from the omnipotens, the emperor.

When the early Church fathers began calling God the omnipotens, that's what they meant, that all authority flows from him (as described by Paul in Romans 13).

Now, to be "like Jesus," completely identical in every way would, in fact, invoke the mathematical concept of identity. To be completely identical, each of us would have to be literally Jesus...we would have to be literally One Substance with the Father. But we are not One Substance with the Father, we are created beings.

But the incarnate Jesus had nothing more going for Him as a material being, a man, than Adam had.
 
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Kylie

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My opinion > He started from "the same lump" (Romans 9:21) to make all humans. So, from the same basic stuff there are humans becoming "worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived" (2 Timothy 3:13), while others are growing in Jesus and how He has people loving.

And I might agree with you if I didn't see that Christians were just as likely to be mean and nasty people as anyone else.

They did not start better, because they did not first come from Jesus, then.

So? They still came from God.

And I already offered that eternal damnation is a measure for controlling evil.

A measure that God should be able to avoid taking.

And when I said evil people volunteer to be sewer buckets of Satanic stuff like unforgiveness and lusts and worry and other degrading and cruel stuff, I meant volunteering in sort of a sarcastic way. Actually, they are stuck with their nasty stuff and weakness. And this is enforced by their pride which is so intimate with their unforgiveness and other degrading and anti-love things, so people are in denial and very stubbornly refusing to trust Jesus to free and correct them of their deep trouble.

They are still, according to your argument, doing a very important job.

But Jesus does call to "all" >

"'Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.'" (Matthew 11:28-29)

And, actually, they are not in danger of damnation; but they are already living in it. They have in themselves stuff which will be in hell; so they are already sampling. And, yes, Jesus died so we do not continue so, plus He calls to "all" to have rest with Him. And this rest is better than what any Star Wars god can give you, I will offer.

You do realise that this claim is entirely unconvincing to anyone who isn't already a believer, right?
 
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com7fy8

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So, going off the way you've defined it, why didn't God make us like Jesus?
Partly because humans did not start from Jesus. They started as perfectly created creatures, but they were not made from what has the character of Christ. So, they were perfect in form, but not in Christ's character which is incapable of evil.

And I think we can see how humans have the ability of character to become "worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived" > 2 Timothy 3:13. It looks this way to me, anyway. But also, if we humans can change to worse, God is able to change us to become like Jesus, however much God knows this is possible.

And, going by Romans 9:21, I see how God has chosen to have certain humans be vessels for containing the evil things of "the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience" > and I will offer, that this will not result in people becoming like Jesus.

"But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him." (1 Corinthians 6:17)

Anyone who is joined to Jesus can be effected by how Jesus is.

So, it has been God's plan, then, to have humans for different purposes . . . not for all to be like Jesus.
 
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Kylie

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Partly because humans did not start from Jesus. They started as perfectly created creatures, but they were not made from what has the character of Christ. So, they were perfect in form, but not in Christ's character which is incapable of evil.

No, they didn't start from Jesus, they started from God. That should be at least as good as starting from Jesus, right?

And I think we can see how humans have the ability of character to become "worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived" > 2 Timothy 3:13. It looks this way to me, anyway. But also, if we humans can change to worse, God is able to change us to become like Jesus, however much God knows this is possible.

If God is able to change us that way, why doesn't he do it? Surely it's better for all concerned, right?

And, going by Romans 9:21, I see how God has chosen to have certain humans be vessels for containing the evil things of "the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience" > and I will offer, that this will not result in people becoming like Jesus.

"But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him." (1 Corinthians 6:17)

Anyone who is joined to Jesus can be effected by how Jesus is.

So, it has been God's plan, then, to have humans for different purposes . . . not for all to be like Jesus.

So God punishes people for being what he wanted them to be? Does that seem fair to you?
 
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Joy

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