Why did God not start humans by making us like Jesus?

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childeye 2

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For a Christian, "the right way" would mean like Jesus.

Now, we have ones who say we needed to have "free will", so we can choose to love God. But Jesus is perfect and incapable of sinning, yet quite able to love the way God wants.

So . . . then . . . why didn't our Heavenly Father start us all off like Jesus??

I think this could be what Kylie is asking, and she is welcome to speak for herself.

:)
Your question is somewhat similar to, why would God make a Covenant based on keeping the letter of the law, and then promise that one day there would be a New Covenant wherein He would write the laws on one's heart so as to cause them to keep them? In a way Paul asked the same question you asked when he said, " Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual?"

The prodigal son comes to mind as a good answer. I think that God knew that the creature would take God's Spirit for granted. Wherefore God made mankind corruptible, so that all would come to understand how and why to be thankful for His Spirit as the Light of mankind.

To elaborate further upon that thought, I believe that God wanted to show that His Spirit is the goodness in mankind, and that it is Him (agape Love) that keeps us holy. The thought being that only through experiencing darkness and corruption firsthand would we come to appreciate the Light that is God. It also makes sense that through separation from God we come to know that we cannot be good of our own selves, and also that we become vain through un-thankfulness when we attribute goodness to ourselves. This also makes sense as to why scripture says that the law was given to condemn all men as sinners, so that God could gather up through grace.
 
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Robban

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How was it for Abe's benefit? What benefit did he get?



You may have noticed, life is not always a dance on roses.

From our pov.

There are two paths to take, the long short path or the short long path.

The long short path is one difficulty after another but with perseverance it pays off,
because suddenly you are standing at the gates of the palace.

The short long path speaks for itself,
to be able to see the palace at a distance, but in between you and the palace
is an endless stretch of undergrowth, shrubs, weeds, thorns and nasties.
 
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Kylie

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You may have noticed, life is not always a dance on roses.

From our pov.

There are two paths to take, the long short path or the short long path.

The long short path is one difficulty after another but with perseverance it pays off,
because suddenly you are standing at the gates of the palace.

The short long path speaks for itself,
to be able to see the palace at a distance, but in between you and the palace
is an endless stretch of undergrowth, shrubs, weeds, thorns and nasties.

Again, I will ask: How was it for Abe's benefit? What benefit did he get?
 
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Robban

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Again, I will ask: How was it for Abe's benefit? What benefit did he get?

The benefit of trusting in Him, the One abaove.

Study the life of Abraham and take note of his life then you will not need ask these questions.
 
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Kylie

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The benefit of trusting in Him, the One abaove.

Study the life of Abraham and take note of his life then you will not need ask these questions.

If, as you say, God knew what was going to happen anyway, then Abe would have that trust whether God did it or not. So your answer falls flat.
 
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Kylie

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But it did not turn out that way, did it?

Abe was going to trust God no matter what. God knew what Abe would do. So God didn't need to go through with actually doing it.

If I know that leaving the antique vase on the table will result in someone walking past and bumping it so it falls and breaks, why would I then go and place it there? Or why would I keep a look out and call out "STOP!" to the person who's about to hit it? Why wouldn't I just not put it there in the first place?
 
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Robban

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Abe was going to trust God no matter what. God knew what Abe would do. So God didn't need to go through with actually doing it.

If I know that leaving the antique vase on the table will result in someone walking past and bumping it so it falls and breaks, why would I then go and place it there? Or why would I keep a look out and call out "STOP!" to the person who's about to hit it? Why wouldn't I just not put it there in the first place?

You are missing the boat, Abraham should be an example to follow or at least be influenced by his behaviour.

I really have to go now, truly,
can be back later, couple of days or so.

Meanwhile try and get up to speed with the life of Abraham.

Check out Psalms 110,
the entire Psalm refers to Abraham who merited prominence for recognizing God in his youth.

He was the only one in his time who stood up and told the idolworshipers
whom he dwelt among,
they were all wrong.
 
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mmksparbud

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Jesus created us through the Holy Spirit with the Father in their image.

oh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
Joh 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.


We're the ones that screwed things up.
 
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d taylor

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got it . . . what I think you mean :)

But each Person of God is not some independent "God", but They share and function as one. So, even if God made all humans like Himself so they were "Gods", which I think you mean . . . sarcastically, of course . . . if they were like God, they would be harmonious, and not a bunch of self-willed idiots running all over the place . . . like we humans can be. All those dear little "Gods" would be sharing and harmonious and one like our Father and Jesus and the Holy Spirit . . . if God who is love and about family made them like Himself.

Now @Kylie . . . for whom I started this thread > why didn't God make a bunch of nice humans all like His own Son Jesus? After all, they would have been so pleasing to Him; you would think this would be too rewarding for our Heavenly Father to resist . . . versus having all of us now being the way we can be and doing what we do selfishly in this evil world . . . except as much as anyone is changing to be God's way, through Jesus.

So . . . why do things in what could seem to be a so roundabout way? Why not be more direct and just make humans like Jesus, to begin with?

One thing I will offer, first >

All along, it was God's plan for Jesus to be the first perfectly good Person to walk on this earth; I get this possibility through the Bible verse that says, "that in all things He may have the preeminence." (in Colossians 1:18) And, with His crucifixion and resurrection, then would be when He would adopt people to become children of God, and perfect us as one body, with Jesus as our Head.

So, God did not want only a bunch of perfect "Gods" running around each on one's own. But our Father is about family caring and sharing in unity; so Jesus is meant to have a family of ones like Him and sharing and organized in family intimacy which, of course, we do not see much of among a number of humans, who can be so independent and isolated.

So, God wanted children who would become "born-again" with trusting in Jesus (Ephesians 1:12), and then all growing and loving in relation to Jesus and one another. There is a lot of communication and connecting and coordinating involved in this; so I see He would want to take some time with this, getting more and more children, and coordinating and interconnecting us all, at a higher level of organization than God has in the physical human body. I suppose He could do it all in a split second . . . but He has all eternity.

There is more, in my opinion, but this is some of it.
-
Well actually i thought she was asking why did God not make people like Jesus. But i see now she actually ask, why did God not make people the right way.
 
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com7fy8

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If God made Adam and Eve exactly the way he wanted them to be and they still sinned, doesn't that mean that he wanted them to sin?
Yes, God knew they would sin; He knew they would fail the test. But did He want them to fail? No.

But my opinion is God did plan that to show us something about our own selves . . . so we can see our need for Christ on the cross and in His resurrection. He did not want them to fail, but He does want us to learn from their failure . . . to see how we need Him and can not afford to depend on our own selves > if Adam and Eve were perfect creatures and they failed . . . I consider this fair warning for us not to trust how we ourselves can do things.

This is an example of using evil for His good purpose, by the way. You did ask for examples of God using evil for His good purpose. And, like I offered, in the process, He can put an end to the evil while bringing His good result.

For us personally, this can mean God is able to change our character so we do not give in to Satan, becoming more like Jesus who never has given in to evil. But, also, like I say, with Jesus we can also be doing what is so good, not only struggling all the time to resist temptation. So, we not only need wisdom and strength to say no to Satan, but also we need to live in our Creator's love (Romans 5:5, Jude 20-21) so we become creative in how to love any person.

This is what God wants. Plus, you could say, He wants failure to be temporary, then :) So, saying He wanted Adam and Eve to fail and sin might be argued, since He did not stop that from happening and could have, but what He really wants, in any case, is we learn from that and do not keep on failing and sinning, plus He wants us to come out like Jesus and to love like Jesus.

But, of course, you have already asked, why didn't God just start us off being like Jesus? Yes, I can see the point . . . that that could be more direct. And this is the question of this thread :) And I have already offered a little about this.

In my opinion . . . I have learned . . . God is the Creator of all, and He is all-controlling, not only all-knowing and all-powerful and everywhere-present. So, when you ask me this, you are asking why God in His all-control would decide that Adam and Eve would fail so?

And what I have learned is . . . of course, subject to evaluation >

One thing is that, all along, God intended for Jesus to be the first perfect on this earth. And I understand that Jesus is perfectly like our Father who is incapable of sin and evil > James 1:13. But yes we have ones very in disagreement with this, and they can use the Bible to argue that Jesus was indeed capable of sinning :)

In any case, what I understand is that ones becoming perfected would do so in coordination and unity with Jesus being the first of the perfect. God wants us in unity plus coordination with Jesus who is our first and example-and-sample; He does not want a bunch of isolated independent "Gods", but growing as one body of Jesus . . . in family caring and sharing intimacy.

So, Adam and Eve never were meant to be the first to live without sin on this earth.

Still . . . why?

My opinion is God wants to have a place for evil, sorted out from His children who will eventually be on this earth once it is resurrected > Romans 8:20-21 >

"For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God." (Romans 8:21-22)

So, evil on this earth is in a holding place, and there are humans actually volunteering to have it in them . . . while it is on its way to the flaming sewer which burns with fire and brimstone. So, these buckets of the sewage of evil's things are doing a very important job.

So, what is wise is to make sure we are not dishonorable vessels of unforgiveness and hate and discrimination and lusts and frustration and stress and abusive sorts of arguing and complaining which degrade people from how love has us becoming and sharing with Jesus, instead.


Now, does God want people to be buckets of Satanic stuff? I would say no. But I see how it is practical, keeping the spirit of evil (Ephesians 2:2) organized. And anyone in Jesus can grow in love, instead, even right in the middle of such a horrible mess of this evil world. Because God is superior and better and more powerful.
 
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com7fy8

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The thought being that only through experiencing darkness and corruption firsthand would we come to appreciate the Light that is God.
I have been through the process of discovering how I could not get my own self to choose and do what is good.

It also makes sense that through separation from God we come to know that we cannot be good of our own selves, and also that we become vain through un-thankfulness when we attribute goodness to ourselves.
Yes, be thankful.
 
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com7fy8

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Well actually i thought she was asking why did God not make people like Jesus. But i see now she actually ask, why did God not make people the right way.
Let me check her wording > yes >
why didn't he make us the right way to begin with?
And I put my interpretation on what it would mean for God to make us "the right way". The right way, I would say, would be like Jesus.
 
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d taylor

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Let me check her wording > yes >And I put my interpretation on what it would mean for God to make us "the right way". The right way, I would say, would be like Jesus.

Has she elaborated on what the right way is, in any of your post with her. Or was it just left at, make people the right way. As an unbeliever there is really a wide amount of meaning she could have for her, the right way idea.
 
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childeye 2

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I have been through the process of discovering how I could not get my own self to choose and do what is good.

Yes, be thankful.
If I define worldliness as a do it to them before they do it to you mentality, it seems to me that Agape or unconditional Love is not of this world nor the impetus of the flesh.
 
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Halbhh

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So, since we have established that we can have free will while still being completely sinless, I'll ask again: If God made Adam and Eve exactly the way he wanted them to be and they still sinned, doesn't that mean that he wanted them to sin?
My guess: more like a wise parent who knows that we newborns would eventually need to learn by experience how much wiser our parent is than we guessed in our youthful naivete. How can we learn except by finding out.
 
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Kylie

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Yes, God knew they would sin; He knew they would fail the test. But did He want them to fail? No.

But my opinion is God did plan that to show us something about our own selves . . . so we can see our need for Christ on the cross and in His resurrection. He did not want them to fail, but He does want us to learn from their failure . . . to see how we need Him and can not afford to depend on our own selves > if Adam and Eve were perfect creatures and they failed . . . I consider this fair warning for us not to trust how we ourselves can do things.

This is an example of using evil for His good purpose, by the way. You did ask for examples of God using evil for His good purpose. And, like I offered, in the process, He can put an end to the evil while bringing His good result.

For us personally, this can mean God is able to change our character so we do not give in to Satan, becoming more like Jesus who never has given in to evil. But, also, like I say, with Jesus we can also be doing what is so good, not only struggling all the time to resist temptation. So, we not only need wisdom and strength to say no to Satan, but also we need to live in our Creator's love (Romans 5:5, Jude 20-21) so we become creative in how to love any person.

This is what God wants. Plus, you could say, He wants failure to be temporary, then :) So, saying He wanted Adam and Eve to fail and sin might be argued, since He did not stop that from happening and could have, but what He really wants, in any case, is we learn from that and do not keep on failing and sinning, plus He wants us to come out like Jesus and to love like Jesus.

But, of course, you have already asked, why didn't God just start us off being like Jesus? Yes, I can see the point . . . that that could be more direct. And this is the question of this thread :) And I have already offered a little about this.

In my opinion . . . I have learned . . . God is the Creator of all, and He is all-controlling, not only all-knowing and all-powerful and everywhere-present. So, when you ask me this, you are asking why God in His all-control would decide that Adam and Eve would fail so?

And what I have learned is . . . of course, subject to evaluation >

One thing is that, all along, God intended for Jesus to be the first perfect on this earth. And I understand that Jesus is perfectly like our Father who is incapable of sin and evil > James 1:13. But yes we have ones very in disagreement with this, and they can use the Bible to argue that Jesus was indeed capable of sinning :)

In any case, what I understand is that ones becoming perfected would do so in coordination and unity with Jesus being the first of the perfect. God wants us in unity plus coordination with Jesus who is our first and example-and-sample; He does not want a bunch of isolated independent "Gods", but growing as one body of Jesus . . . in family caring and sharing intimacy.

So, Adam and Eve never were meant to be the first to live without sin on this earth.

Still . . . why?

My opinion is God wants to have a place for evil, sorted out from His children who will eventually be on this earth once it is resurrected > Romans 8:20-21 >

"For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God." (Romans 8:21-22)

So, evil on this earth is in a holding place, and there are humans actually volunteering to have it in them . . . while it is on its way to the flaming sewer which burns with fire and brimstone. So, these buckets of the sewage of evil's things are doing a very important job.

So, what is wise is to make sure we are not dishonorable vessels of unforgiveness and hate and discrimination and lusts and frustration and stress and abusive sorts of arguing and complaining which degrade people from how love has us becoming and sharing with Jesus, instead.


Now, does God want people to be buckets of Satanic stuff? I would say no. But I see how it is practical, keeping the spirit of evil (Ephesians 2:2) organized. And anyone in Jesus can grow in love, instead, even right in the middle of such a horrible mess of this evil world. Because God is superior and better and more powerful.

Then why would God not just create us better in the first place? And why couldn't God give us that understanding without putting us at risk of eternal damnation? And why are there people who say, "Yes, give me the evil so I can do this very important job which helps you make your point and helps you save more people," and why are these people who volunteer to do the dangerous and horrible work so others might escape it sent to damnation for it?
 
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Kylie

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My guess: more like a wise parent who knows that we newborns would eventually need to learn by experience how much wiser our parent is than we guessed in our youthful naivete. How can we learn except by finding out.

The difference being that I would stop my child from doing something if that thing was going to harm them.

And I would never put something within their reach if I knew that they were going to harm themselves with it.
 
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Halbhh

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The difference being that I would stop my child from doing something if that thing was going to harm them.

And I would never put something within their reach if I knew that they were going to harm themselves with it.
Our safety net is total, 100% :)
 
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