Trinity Bible Verses

[Jeshu]

Nuda Scriptura (naked Scripture, i.e., the Bible by itself) isn't a very good way of using Scripture. With the important point that Sola Scriptura and Nuda Scriptura are very different concepts.

The Scriptures, as well as the lived experience of the Church in its engagement with Scripture is what gets us to the doctrine of the Trinity.

There are lots of passages in Scripture that we understand, taking the totality of the biblical witness in light of the revelation of Jesus Christ, and the subsequent way in which the earliest Christians wrestled with those things, are the basis of Trinitarian thought.

We can point to Scripture that says there is only one God, that identifies the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit each as God, passages which both emphasize their unity as well as their distinctiveness.

But handing a non-believer a Bible with some passages highlighted isn't going to bring these ideas together in a coherent way, which the doctrine of the Trinity does. To get from point A to point B on this means getting into the theology.

It's very fine if you personally find theology boring; but it's simply impossible to discuss Christianity, or anything in the Bible, without also providing the theological framework (Christianity) in which the Bible is to be read and understood.

-CryptoLutheran

Jesus Himself warns about doing theology like that!

"So the Pharisees and teachers of the law asked Jesus, “Why don’t your disciples live according to the tradition of the elders instead of eating their food with defiled hands?”

He replied, “Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written:

“‘These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
They worship me in vain;
their teachings are merely human rules.’


You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to human traditions.”


Jesus shows us the right way to do theology.
“Look, I am coming soon! Blessed is the one who keeps the words of the prophecy written in this scroll.”


John tells us who The Word really is.
John 1:1
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

And Peter tell us the result Keeping the Word has.
"For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God."

So no i don't believe human tradition tells us about God's new life through Jesus Christ, In reality the traditions of all the Christian Churches, across this planet, contain loveless ways and laws. Nothing of which tells us about God, or brings us into a relationship with Him.

Having said this i think it is best to read the word with your heart and let the Spirit of Christ bring it to life within you. When you do that the Prophecy in Zechariah will find fulfilment right within your own heart and every lie and inner thief living in your heart will be destroyed and unfaithful love will be done away with. That is the power of The Word of God, i think it best to follow such tradition when it comes to the word.

Peace.

Zechariah 5
I looked again, and there before me was a flying scroll.

He asked me, “What do you see?”

I answered, “I see a flying scroll, twenty cubits long and ten cubits wide.


And he said to me, “This is the curse that is going out over the whole land; for according to what it says on one side, every thief will be banished, and according to what it says on the other, everyone who swears falsely will be banished. The Lord Almighty declares, ‘I will send it out, and it will enter the house of the thief and the house of anyone who swears falsely by my name. It will remain in that house and destroy it completely, both its timbers and its stones.’”

Then the angel who was speaking to me came forward and said to me, “Look up and see what is appearing.”


I asked, “What is it?”

He replied, “It is a basket.” And he added, “This is the iniquity of the people throughout the land.”


Then the cover of lead was raised, and there in the basket sat a woman! He said, “This is wickedness,” and he pushed her back into the basket and pushed its lead cover down on it.


Then I looked up—and there before me were two women, with the wind in their wings! They had wings like those of a stork, and they lifted up the basket between heaven and earth.


“Where are they taking the basket?” I asked the angel who was speaking to me.


He replied, “To the country of Babylonia to build a house for it. When the house is ready, the basket will be set there in its place.”

 

[Justin BT]

Would the lack of Comma's change anything? the words are in the Greek right?.

Sorry, I cant tell if your being facetious or not. The "Comma Johanneum" is an academic/technical term/label for a debate regarding a specific bible passage. The term has nothing to do with literal actual ancient commas. It is worth googling if you haven't heard of the term before.

 

[Justin BT]

Nuda Scriptura (naked Scripture, i.e., the Bible by itself) isn't a very good way of using Scripture. With the important point that Sola Scriptura and Nuda Scriptura are very different concepts. .... it's simply impossible to discuss Christianity, or anything in the Bible, without also providing the theological framework (Christianity) in which the Bible is to be read and understood.

I wonder if we can discuss which bible verses people consider are most worth reflecting on in order to better understand the Trinity, without turning this thread into a debate regarding Sola Scriptura and Nuda Scriptura.

I am definitely interested in hearing your personal reflections regarding which verses or collection of verses most concisely lead a "non-Christian educated" person to an understanding of Trinity. Personally, I guess I am probably also interested if you want to argue that it is necessary to lean on historical/traditional church teachings or councils to arrive at the idea of Trinity, but I am just not sure it is necessary. I am open to being convinced. I am also not sure if a typical non-Christian non-church background person has the patience for learning about historical church councils and teachings. I'd prefer to start with the basic fundamentals.

 

[Der Alte]

Anti-Trinitarians endlessly squabble and bicker about words, used by Trinitarians, trying to express the nature of God, as revealed in scripture, e.g. Trinity,””triune,””person,""being,""entity,""substance,""essence,"”nature,””who," Hypostatic union," etc., etc., All words are inherently finite and imperfect, therefore these words, and/or any other words, are totally inadequate to describe God, the infinite, perfect, omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent. But the fact that human words are finite, limited and imperfect does not prove or disprove anything about the doctrine of the Trinity.
…..Here yet again scriptural truths I have posted before, without any so-called unscriptural words or man made doctrines.
1. There is one God! The Father is called/referred to as God, in scripture, but the Father is not the Son or the Spirit.

[1] Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
[2] Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
[3]Luk 7:16 And there came a fear on all: and they glorified God, saying, That a great prophet is risen up among us; and, That God hath visited his people.
[4] Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
[5] Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
[6] Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him[God created the world, Gen 1:1][/color], and the world knew him not.
[7] Joh 1:14 And the Word [acting on Himself] became flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
[8] Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten God, [μονογενὴς θεὸς ] which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
[9] John 10:30 I and my Father are one.
[10] Joh 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. [Jewish leaders speaking]
[11] Joh 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.[John speaking]
[12] Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, before Abraham was, I am [ אהיה/ehyeh, I am, Ex 3:14].
[13] John 12:41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his [Jesus] glory, and spake of him[יהוה/YHWH, Isa 6:1ff].

Isa 6:1 In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple​

[14] Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
[15] Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was[Jesus was aware of His existence before the world was created.].
[16] Joh 17:10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine[Everything that belongs to the Father belongs to Jesus]; and I am glorified in them.
[17] Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, [Jesus] My Lord and my God. [Thomas addressed Jesus as God and Jesus praised him.]
[18] Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
[19] Rom 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever[Jesus called God]. Amen.
[20] 2 Cor 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
[21] Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
[22] Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
[23] Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
[24] Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
[25] Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever[God calls the Son, God]: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
[26] Heb 3:3 For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house.
4 For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.
[27] Phi 2:6 Who, being [existing] in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
[28] 1 Tim 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh[Jesus called God], is justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
[29] 1 Tim 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ[Jesus called God], which is our hope;
[30] 1 Tim 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;[The lamb is king of kings, Rev 17:14, Jesus is king of kings, Rev 19:16, God is Lord of Lords Deu 10:17]
[31] Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ[Jesus called God];
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
[32] 2 Pet 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ[Jesus called God]:
[33] 1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life[Jesus called God].
[34] Rev 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings[יהוה/YHWH, Deu 10:17]: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
[35] Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS[יהוה/YHWH, Deu 10:17].
[36] Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be[יהוה/YHWH, Isa 40:10].
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.[יהוה/YHWH, Isa 44:6]​

3. There is one God! The Holy Spirit is called/referred to as God, in scripture, but the Spirit is not the Father or the Son. Acts 5:3-4, Acts 28:25-27.
Scripture which identify the Holy Spirit as God

Act 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.​

This passage, Act 5:3-4, above, identifies the Holy Spirit as God by equating lying to the H.S. with lying to God.

Act 28:25 And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,
26 Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:
27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.​

This passage Act 28:25-27, above, identifies the Holy Spirit as YHWH by saying the H.S. spoke words which were spoken by YHWH, in Isa 6:8-10, below.

Isa 6:8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, [יהוה/YHWH] saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.
9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed
Heb 10:15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. [O.T. see יהוה/YHWH, Jer 31:33-34]​

This passage, Heb 10:15-17, above, identifies the Holy Spirit as YHWH by saying words spoken by YHWH, in Jer 31:33-34, below, were spoken by the H.S.

Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, [יהוה/YHWH] I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more
Heb 3:7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. [O.T. יהוה/YHWH, Ps 95:10]
11[/b] So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.) [O.T. יהוה/YHWH, Deu 1:34-35]​

This passage, Heb 3:7-11, above, identifies the Holy Spirit as YHWH by saying words spoken by YHWH in Psa 95:10-11, and Deu 1:34-35, below, were spoken by the Holy Spirit.

Psa 95:10 Forty years long was I [יהוה/YHWH vs. 6]grieved with this generation, and said, It is a people that do err in their heart, and they have not known my ways:
11 Unto whom I sware in my wrath that they should not enter into my rest.
Deu 1:34 And the LORD [יהוה/YHWH] heard the voice of your words, and was wroth, and sware, saying,
35 Surely there shall not one of these men of this evil generation see that good land, which I sware to give unto your fathers,​

There is one God! The Father, the Son, and the Spirit, all three are called/ referred to as God, in scripture, but each has a distinct mind, will, and self; John 16:13, 1 Cor 12:11, Philippians 2:5, John 5:26, Rom 8:27, Matthew 26:39, 1 Cor 2:16.

 

[BeyondET]

Sorry, I cant tell if your being facetious or not. The "Comma Johanneum" is an academic/technical term/label for a debate regarding a specific bible passage. The term has nothing to do with literal actual ancient commas. It is worth googling if you haven't heard of the term before.

Yea I have looked into it, I think it is a humorous debate over nothing.

 

[d taylor]

http://www.arielcontent.org/dcs/pdf/mbs050m.pdf​

 

[TheWhat?]

Personally, I guess I am probably also interested if you want to argue that it is necessary to lean on historical/traditional church teachings or councils to arrive at the idea of Trinity, but I am just not sure it is necessary.

It seems a little counterintuitive to me to assume that trinitarianism was capable of essentially bootstrapping itself within tradition, especially when Athanasius showed such high regard for the scriptures. A historical-critical approach is also counterintuitive, when one seeks to ignore the context of the beliefs of the early church and their obvious regard for scripture and beliefs related to their predecessors, the prophets.

The bizarre tendency to disregard what is essentially the central focus for the devout of the faith, prior to some point between the inception of the church and now, is entirely nonsensical.

 

[Justin BT]

I agree with your general sentiment that theological terminology such as "omniscient, etc..." are not always helpful. Theological terms can be helpful shorthand for theological ideas. But in terms of communication the basics of the faith, I am not sure theological terms are always helpful. I'd much prefer to point people to reflect on scripture in order to get a full understanding.

Perhaps you missed part of my post though. asking about reflection on what would be a great minimal set for someone who doesn't know much about the idea. So although your full and complete list is excellent and well formulated in terms of theological debate and defense of Christian teaching, I guess I was instead hoping for some level of reflection upon what minimal/small set would be key for a "seeker/new-believer".

Anti-Trinitarians endlessly squabble and bicker about words, used by Trinitarians, trying to express the nature of God, as revealed in scripture, e.g. Trinity,””triune,””person,""being,""entity,""substance,""essence,"”nature,””who," Hypostatic union," etc., etc., All words are inherently finite and imperfect, therefore these words, and/or any other words, are totally inadequate to describe God, the infinite, perfect, omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent. But the fact that human words are finite, limited and imperfect does not prove or disprove anything about the doctrine of the Trinity.
…..Here yet again scriptural truths I have posted before, without any so-called unscriptural words or man made doctrines.
1. There is one God! The Father is called/referred to as God, in scripture, but the Father is not the Son or the Spirit.

[1] Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
[2] Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
[3]Luk 7:16 And there came a fear on all: and they glorified God, saying, That a great prophet is risen up among us; and, That God hath visited his people.
[4] Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
[5] Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
[6] Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him[God created the world, Gen 1:1][/color], and the world knew him not.
[7] Joh 1:14 And the Word [acting on Himself] became flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
[8] Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten God, [μονογενὴς θεὸς ] which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
[9] John 10:30 I and my Father are one.
[10] Joh 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. [Jewish leaders speaking]
[11] Joh 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.[John speaking]
[12] Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, before Abraham was, I am [ אהיה/ehyeh, I am, Ex 3:14].
[13] John 12:41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his [Jesus] glory, and spake of him[יהוה/YHWH, Isa 6:1ff].

Isa 6:1 In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple​

[14] Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
[15] Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was[Jesus was aware of His existence before the world was created.].
[16] Joh 17:10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine[Everything that belongs to the Father belongs to Jesus]; and I am glorified in them.
[17] Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, [Jesus] My Lord and my God. [Thomas addressed Jesus as God and Jesus praised him.]
[18] Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
[19] Rom 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever[Jesus called God]. Amen.
[20] 2 Cor 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
[21] Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
[22] Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
[23] Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
[24] Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
[25] Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever[God calls the Son, God]: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
[26] Heb 3:3 For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house.
4 For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.
[27] Phi 2:6 Who, being [existing] in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
[28] 1 Tim 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh[Jesus called God], is justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
[29] 1 Tim 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ[Jesus called God], which is our hope;
[30] 1 Tim 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;[The lamb is king of kings, Rev 17:14, Jesus is king of kings, Rev 19:16, God is Lord of Lords Deu 10:17]
[31] Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ[Jesus called God];
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
[32] 2 Pet 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ[Jesus called God]:
[33] 1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life[Jesus called God].
[34] Rev 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings[יהוה/YHWH, Deu 10:17]: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
[35] Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS[יהוה/YHWH, Deu 10:17].
[36] Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be[יהוה/YHWH, Isa 40:10].
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.[יהוה/YHWH, Isa 44:6]​

3. There is one God! The Holy Spirit is called/referred to as God, in scripture, but the Spirit is not the Father or the Son. Acts 5:3-4, Acts 28:25-27.
Scripture which identify the Holy Spirit as God

Act 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.​

This passage, Act 5:3-4, above, identifies the Holy Spirit as God by equating lying to the H.S. with lying to God.

Act 28:25 And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,
26 Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:
27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.​

This passage Act 28:25-27, above, identifies the Holy Spirit as YHWH by saying the H.S. spoke words which were spoken by YHWH, in Isa 6:8-10, below.

Isa 6:8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, [יהוה/YHWH] saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.
9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed
Heb 10:15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. [O.T. see יהוה/YHWH, Jer 31:33-34]​

This passage, Heb 10:15-17, above, identifies the Holy Spirit as YHWH by saying words spoken by YHWH, in Jer 31:33-34, below, were spoken by the H.S.

Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, [יהוה/YHWH] I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more
Heb 3:7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. [O.T. יהוה/YHWH, Ps 95:10]
11[/b] So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.) [O.T. יהוה/YHWH, Deu 1:34-35]​

This passage, Heb 3:7-11, above, identifies the Holy Spirit as YHWH by saying words spoken by YHWH in Psa 95:10-11, and Deu 1:34-35, below, were spoken by the Holy Spirit.

Psa 95:10 Forty years long was I [יהוה/YHWH vs. 6]grieved with this generation, and said, It is a people that do err in their heart, and they have not known my ways:
11 Unto whom I sware in my wrath that they should not enter into my rest.
Deu 1:34 And the LORD [יהוה/YHWH] heard the voice of your words, and was wroth, and sware, saying,
35 Surely there shall not one of these men of this evil generation see that good land, which I sware to give unto your fathers,​

There is one God! The Father, the Son, and the Spirit, all three are called/ referred to as God, in scripture, but each has a distinct mind, will, and self; John 16:13, 1 Cor 12:11, Philippians 2:5, John 5:26, Rom 8:27, Matthew 26:39, 1 Cor 2:16.

 

[Justin BT]

It seems a little counterintuitive to me to assume that trinitarianism was capable of essentially bootstrapping itself within tradition, especially when Athanasius showed such high regard for the scriptures.

Exactly, the historical debate regarding Trinity focussed primarily on what Scripture itself teaches. So I do think it is reasonable for me to ask what a minimal set of helpful verses might be, and I do think it is reasonable to request that we avoid theological/academic/historical/textual-critical side tracks. I would go so far as to argue that some of the verses that were key in Athanasius' defense of the Trinity are helpful in terms of clarifying key issues regarding the debate, but they might not always be helpful in terms of communicating the basic crux of the matter.

Perhaps, can get back to reflecting on what are the fundamental and ideal bible verses that we could share with a seeker that would be a good place to start reflection on the topic?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Thank you everyone for your constructive posts!

I hear your point, proof texting is not good scholarship, your exhortation is correct if the question at hand was how to do great bible study. But advanced scholarship/study is not my intent here. But the intent of my question is to wonder what minimal set of verses could be use to speedily/concisely share basics of the faith with people who might not understand Christian terminology. I bet we can help people conceptualize and understand trinity without resorting to historical-grammatical hermeneutical techniques. (Admittedly some historical context is probably needed, people probably do need to understand the basic story arc of the bible and of Israel to understand some things)

... forgive me for rushing ahead, but I'm rather skeptical that we can conceptualize all of this very simply for a more recent inquirer of the Trinititarian formula. And you're admission doesn't help my skepticism.

 

[TheWhat?]

Exactly, the historical debate regarding Trinity focussed primarily on what Scripture itself teaches. So I do think it is reasonable for me to ask what a minimal set of helpful verses might be, and I do think it is reasonable to request that we avoid theological/academic/historical/textual-critical side tracks. I would go so far as to argue that some of the verses that were key in Athanasius' defense of the Trinity are helpful in terms of clarifying key issues regarding the debate, but they might not always be helpful in terms of communicating the basic crux of the matter.

Perhaps, can get back to reflecting on what are the fundamental and ideal bible verses that we could share with a seeker that would be a good place to start reflection on the topic?

While I understand your concern, I'm not certain that it is very realistic. Trinitarian thought is more than likely an "advanced" topic, which may not only require years of study, but genuine charisms to discern. The mysteries of scripture are not made entirely plain to beginners.

In fact, I'm leery of what much of dogmatism has become, especially to new believers. It's one thing to definitively hammer down "what the church teaches" to avoid schisms, but to require that the entirety of the church believe what they can neither discern nor understand, seems to me to be of little value. As a result I frequently run into Muslims schooling christians in public debate, who cannot explain what they believe in terms that agree with their own scripture that the Muslims use to defeat them. I would probably direct new believers to following the teachings of the gospel in a purer sense myself, but that always seems to lead to problems in more theologically-minded social circles.

 

[Abaxvahl]

While I understand your concern, I'm not certain that it is very realistic. Trinitarian thought is more than likely an "advanced" topic, which may not only require years of study, but genuine charisms to discern. The mysteries of scripture are not made entirely plain to beginners.

Christ didn't come and reveal things like this for the most part. Yes, it has infinite yield (the revelations of God) and can be meditated on forever, but the Trinity and the Christology are not complicated to get and are the absolute basics of the Christian faith. Everything flows from them, and without them a person is not even a Christian at all. The Creed is simple to comprehend and settle the mystery in the mind by faith, the deeper study of it is advanced, but the thing in itself, the Trinity in Unity and Unity in Trinity (that is the basic teaching in the Creed on it) is simple and not complicated. We must be dogmatic on this point because without the Trinity a person is not even with us. Without God Incarnate they are not even with us.

 

[TheWhat?]

- nevermind -

 

[Justin BT]

I am happy for people to assert that it’s not possible to understand the basics of the concept of trinity through reflection on a concise set of scripture references. (And instead claim a need to lean into other authorities or advanced sophisticated study. How can an ordinary Christian provide informed ascent to a theological position if it can’t be easily understood. It’s an interesting idea, perhaps worthy of its own discussion thread). But for the purposes of the specific question at hand, We can just agree to disagree.

Im really just more interested in hearing from people who think there is an answer to my OP. Who think the ideas behind the trinity are ideas that can be understood through reflection on a carefully selected set of scriptures.

 

[TheWhat?]

To that I will amend my response to be, in short, for beginners, while an understanding of trinitarian thought may be unrealistic, there is sufficient scripture to show that trinitarian thought is present and supported in the writings of the authors, especially of the NT.

Further, I will adamantly oppose the idea that the NT authors' writings are in some places non-trinitarian, as rooted entirely in misunderstanding of their doctrine as long as I have breath remaining.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

I am articulating this question very carefully, I am not interested in theological debates in this thread. This question is for specifically for people who agree with the Christian traditional teaching of Trinity:

What would be the minimum set of bible verses that you could provide a non-Christian, that, if you ask them to read and reflect upon those verses, the underlying concepts of trinity would be clear and obvious.​

There is no correct or incorrect answer, but personally, I would imagine that there would need to be Old Testament and New Testament verses. I wonder if it can be done with a small selection of verses.

What is the reason for this question? Honestly, general theological debates bore me. When it comes to theological matters, I've usually read all of the arguments from the various camps, subsequent discussion usually feels like a predictable play out of standard scripts that have occurred in the church for centuries. I am sure most of us are aware of the textual critical issues, the canonical issues, and the positions of various churches. What I am really interested is the result of deep reflection of the text itself.

Isaiah is the most comprehensive clear passage of the Trinty.

For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

 

[Der Alte]

Isaiah is the most comprehensive clear passage of the Trinty.
For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

This verse was so troublesome to the Jewish translators of 1917 Jewish Publication Society [JPS] translation of the Old Testament they didn't translate the phrase "Wonderful, Counselor, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace" they transliterated the Hebrew thus "Pele- joez-el-gibbor-Abi-ad-sar-shalom;"
In the 1985 version it reads.
9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Yeshayahu (Isaiah): Chapter 9

 

[ViaCrucis]

Jesus Himself warns about doing theology like that!

"So the Pharisees and teachers of the law asked Jesus, “Why don’t your disciples live according to the tradition of the elders instead of eating their food with defiled hands?”

He replied, “Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written:

“‘These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
They worship me in vain;
their teachings are merely human rules.’


You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to human traditions.”


Jesus shows us the right way to do theology.
“Look, I am coming soon! Blessed is the one who keeps the words of the prophecy written in this scroll.”


John tells us who The Word really is.
John 1:1
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

And Peter tell us the result Keeping the Word has.
"For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God."

So no i don't believe human tradition tells us about God's new life through Jesus Christ, In reality the traditions of all the Christian Churches, across this planet, contain loveless ways and laws. Nothing of which tells us about God, or brings us into a relationship with Him.

Having said this i think it is best to read the word with your heart and let the Spirit of Christ bring it to life within you. When you do that the Prophecy in Zechariah will find fulfilment right within your own heart and every lie and inner thief living in your heart will be destroyed and unfaithful love will be done away with. That is the power of The Word of God, i think it best to follow such tradition when it comes to the word.

Peace.

Zechariah 5
I looked again, and there before me was a flying scroll.

He asked me, “What do you see?”

I answered, “I see a flying scroll, twenty cubits long and ten cubits wide.


And he said to me, “This is the curse that is going out over the whole land; for according to what it says on one side, every thief will be banished, and according to what it says on the other, everyone who swears falsely will be banished. The Lord Almighty declares, ‘I will send it out, and it will enter the house of the thief and the house of anyone who swears falsely by my name. It will remain in that house and destroy it completely, both its timbers and its stones.’”

Then the angel who was speaking to me came forward and said to me, “Look up and see what is appearing.”


I asked, “What is it?”

He replied, “It is a basket.” And he added, “This is the iniquity of the people throughout the land.”


Then the cover of lead was raised, and there in the basket sat a woman! He said, “This is wickedness,” and he pushed her back into the basket and pushed its lead cover down on it.


Then I looked up—and there before me were two women, with the wind in their wings! They had wings like those of a stork, and they lifted up the basket between heaven and earth.


“Where are they taking the basket?” I asked the angel who was speaking to me.


He replied, “To the country of Babylonia to build a house for it. When the house is ready, the basket will be set there in its place.”

And yet, nothing in the Gospels makes sense except in the context of the 1st century Jewish world occupied by the foreign Greco-Roman powers.

Without understanding the Scriptures--in their own world--the Scriptures aren't going to make any sense.

Nuda Scriptura rejects the historical context of Scripture, it rejects the context of how the books of the Bible were written, and for what reasons; it ignores how the original audience understood the Scriptures.

Nuda Scriptura isn't pious devotion to the word of God; it is simply a means by which the individual may make the Bible say whatever they want it to.

Scripture has context, a context that extends to outside of the written word itself. And a major part of that context is the fact that the books of the New Testament were written to established Christian communities--congregations that were praying together, living together, and worshiping together.

It is these, the original recipients of the books of the New Testament that actually were living their faith in the ancient world.

Ignoring that out of a blind rejection of "tradition" simply because your traditions reject those ancient traditions (and that's really what this always boils down to) is not a good way to do things.

Without some tradition it's impossible to even have Scripture in the first place.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

I wonder if we can discuss which bible verses people consider are most worth reflecting on in order to better understand the Trinity, without turning this thread into a debate regarding Sola Scriptura and Nuda Scriptura.

I am definitely interested in hearing your personal reflections regarding which verses or collection of verses most concisely lead a "non-Christian educated" person to an understanding of Trinity. Personally, I guess I am probably also interested if you want to argue that it is necessary to lean on historical/traditional church teachings or councils to arrive at the idea of Trinity, but I am just not sure it is necessary. I am open to being convinced. I am also not sure if a typical non-Christian non-church background person has the patience for learning about historical church councils and teachings. I'd prefer to start with the basic fundamentals.

There are plenty of Scriptures which, on their own, point toward what we call the doctrine of the Trinity, when they are read together.

For example, there are Scriptures which teach that there is only one God (Deuteronomy 6:4, Isaiah 45:5). The Scriptures are also clear that Jesus referred to God as His own Father (Matthew 11:25) and that He is the only-begotten Son of the Father (John 3:16), and that He is, as the Son and Word of the Father Himself God (John 1:1) who became flesh (John 1:14). And likewise the Holy Spirit is Himself spoken as a Person and as God (Acts of the Apostles 5:3-4).

So we can say that there is only one God, the Father (Ephesians 4:6).
But we also can say that the one Lord, Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 8:6) who is only-begotten of the Father, the Word of God who was in the beginning with God and is God (John 1:1)

Yet the Son is not the Father, they are distinct, as we see whenever the Lord Jesus speaks about, or speaks to His Father, or whenever both are spoken about (Matthew 3:16-17, Matthew 11:25, Luke 22:41-42).

And likewise, when Jesus speaks of the sending of the Holy Spirit, He calls Him "another Comforter" (John 14:16).

But notice how even here I am weaving together Scriptures together in a way that is coherent. I have read the Scriptures in light of centuries of Christian reflection and exegesis on Scripture.

Could a person who is unfamiliar with Christianity, reading the Bible on their own, take all of these things in Scripture and put them together to get the doctrine of the Trinity? Or does it require guidance from those already in the Christian faith, studied and learned in the Scriptures, to help explain these things?

Additionally, as far as it pertains to non-Christians wishing to learn about Christianity, my experience is that there are those who show genuine curiosity and wish to learn, and they are willing to be patient to learn the elementary matters of the faith and continue to inquire. And then there are those who lack patience and may get exhausted. And then there are those who don't seem to be genuinely curious, but more interested in engaging in mere religious polemics.

Which is why it is important that we ourselves be thoroughly grounded in our faith, so that we can answer the questions of the curious, and even if those who may not be sincerely curious may still come away from the exchange better informed than they were before.

Which is why theology matters. And why we should, as St. Peter says, be mature and have an answer ready for the hope that is in us, doing so with kindness and respect.

The Bible doesn't make sense apart from Christianity. And there's a reason for that, it's the Christian Bible, a collection of books which is written by, written to, and received and assembled by Christians--the Christian Church.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Jeshu]

And yet, nothing in the Gospels makes sense except in the context of the 1st century Jewish world occupied by the foreign Greco-Roman powers.

Without understanding the Scriptures--in their own world--the Scriptures aren't going to make any sense.

Nuda Scriptura rejects the historical context of Scripture, it rejects the context of how the books of the Bible were written, and for what reasons; it ignores how the original audience understood the Scriptures.

Nuda Scriptura isn't pious devotion to the word of God; it is simply a means by which the individual may make the Bible say whatever they want it to.

Scripture has context, a context that extends to outside of the written word itself. And a major part of that context is the fact that the books of the New Testament were written to established Christian communities--congregations that were praying together, living together, and worshiping together.

It is these, the original recipients of the books of the New Testament that actually were living their faith in the ancient world.

Ignoring that out of a blind rejection of "tradition" simply because your traditions reject those ancient traditions (and that's really what this always boils down to) is not a good way to do things.

Without some tradition it's impossible to even have Scripture in the first place.

-CryptoLutheran

i know for sure that what you say is not true, neither is solo scriptura true teaching. The traditions of the Christian Churches have been far to literally focussed on the physical reality, that is where the problems are with the way religion wants us to understand God's truth.

i understand Scripture to be written by the truth in Spirit and that this can easily be testified about in the physical reality. i believe all that is true, is from God and God. i believe God is the truth, and that all truth is from Him, in Him and Him, wherever i find truth, i find a demonstration of God in real life and eaxch truth i find speaks about God and tells me things about Him.

For example 1 + 1 = 2 is just as true as Jesus is the Son of God, both truths are from God and demonstrate His reliability and authenticity. However 1 + 1 = 2 though very true, can never save me, The truth of the Son of god surely can, that is the difference between the truths i find.

Therefore The Word of God is a special Truth, for it is the only truth that talks about our corruption in the flesh, and the destruction thereof, and about the saving power of the Truth's love to rescue us from our life outside of His truth, back into His loving truth, that exists.

Nature, for example tells us heaps about God, but it does not tell us how to be saved from our sins. Science tells us heaps about the truth but it doesn't tell us how to find new life. Only The Word of God describes the truth of our salvation, and that is why it has a special place in my heart as The Word of God, for the Word of God are God's spoken word to His lost children.

That is not tradition. As a matter of fact, when Jesus warns us about tradition, then He tells us that the pen of the scribes have handled the word of truth falsely, and therefore not brought about the salvation of God, written about in His Word. That is what sinful traditions always do they try and captivate God's truth and turn it its meaning to become static and only understandable if the tradition of its meaning is explained along with it. All Christian Churches have made idols out of the truths of God's word doing that.

So the truth of God tells me not to trust tradition rightly. i only have to look around me to know how true that is. For no Christian tradition has brought forth God's Kingdom in this world, rather strife, arguements, division, and better than thou attitudes, which let to much suffering and much killing.

So here i go, back to Spirit, for that is how can read the word rightly. Faith in Jesus, told about in all the Christian tradtions, leads us into the God's Kingdom. It is by faith in His truth that Jesus works His Kingdom into our hearts. So to read the Word rightly is to read it to your heart and let the Words of the truth expose the lies dwelling inside there, and replacing untrue life with true life, that is how we know that what Word we believe is true or not. If the truth we believe about God transforms us for good then we know that it is true.

So please learn to listen to the Voice of Jesus inside your own heart. He lives in your heart through His Spirit, and within the truths of the Word you can read in your bible. It is Him, Jesus, The Living Word within you, you want to lead you into the promised land and it is Him you want you to show the meangings of His word in truth.

i found that Jesus speaks the truth of God through His Spirit into our hearts. He speaks through all truth, but when it comes to our salvation, only the truths of Scriptures build us anew in the Spirit of love for God and neighbour, that is how you recognise that the Word of God is true, and how to understand it rightly.

The truth of God's word, spoken in love for God, myself in sin, and my (fallen) neighbour chased all my inner torment to hell and brought alive within me love, rest and peace, as well as self control and a discerning mind.

The Word of God in spirit has completely rebuild me over the years. Already now The truth has delivered what it pomised it would do, He set me free from my sins and gave me life in His revealed truth insytead. So i don't have to wait till i die physically to find out if i believed true or not, for the Word of God Himself will cut every lie living in me out of me and replace it with His truth, in real life. That is what He has been doing for years already, and i know He will keep on doing until in all my chgosen He takes me up to Heaven.

And i love what i see Him do, building my life into His Kingdom, even now, and for evermore.

That is how i know His word is true. So i don't need the traditional interpretations of religious people who all to often teach out of their by the world educated minds and not The living word of God. Such has only caused confusion about God's truth and did not bring me new life like The word of God has.

So yes, that is how i test the truths of Scripture and find out if what is written is true, and in what ways it is true for me. If The Holy Spirit brings it alive within me, then i know it is The Word and that Jesus dwells within me through The truth and in Spirit.

In Scripture it is stated that in the end days, God Himself will teach us, that is how i understand truth of Scriptures to work. The living truth within me has the power to stop my sins and grow love and truth there instead. The annointing i receive from Jesus is always my new life dwelling safely in His truth, within my sinful heart, where lovingly He embraced me with His truth in Spirit.

This is The power of God, i have learned to recognise, only His word has the power to transform me in love, no other physical truths, not even the testimony of other believers, can do this. Only the truth of God in Spirit can change hearts from sinful to clean and give us the understanding we need to let his truth save us from our inner lies.

Peace.

1 John 2:18-27
Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth. I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth. Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist—denying the Father and the Son. No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.


As for you, see that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he promised us—eternal life.


I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray. As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him.