The Warped World of Incel Extremists

[bèlla]

So true! And sometimes the desperately affection-starved man decides his best chance of getting affection is by garnering sympathy. He thinks that if he can reveal his suffering to an object of his desire, she might throw him a bone out of pity. When she doesn’t, the feelings of resentment and entitlement grow.

No self-respecting man wants a sympathy date. He doesn't want someone to choose him because his plight is pitiful and no one wants him. He wants to win her honestly.

Emotionally healthy people desire companionship that's mutually fulfilling. They want a partner whose investment is genuine. It isn't driven by guilt or sympathy. It's the strength of their character and person.

 

[bèlla]

Maybe we need Christian cuddle parties.

 

[Sparagmos]

I am wondering how would desiring affection from a woman and try to spin it as objectification. I just sometimes have my moments.

. Because the desire is one-way. He essentially wants to use her to satisfy his desire for affection. Her lack of desire isn’t a factor to him.

 

[dzheremi]

I can't believe things are at this base of a level in this conversation, but we all (men, women, single, married, etc.) know that people should want to hug us, right? So if people don't want to, then we should be okay with that/work on whatever is making us unhuggable (same as we would with whatever makes us undateable, unloveable, whatever).

I know it's anecdotal, but I was very proud one day a few years ago when my best friend's daughter, who was maybe only 3 or 4 years old, told me "Uncle Jeremy, I don't want hugs now." I hadn't been trying to hug her or anything, but had absentmindedly rested my arm along the length of the couch we were both sitting on, such that she didn't feel comfortable stretching out like she usually did. Once I realized what I was doing, I apologized and moved my arm to the central 'console' part of the couch (this was a sectional that had little raised arm-like sections at the end of each connecting piece). She said "Thank you", and then no less than five minutes later decided she did want a hug, so she hugged me.

She wanted a hug on her own terms, which is certainly something I wish my own parents had allowed me when I was her age or even a little older. Don't we all remember having to give grammie or uncle a hug or kiss when we didn't want to, but being told it was rude or disrespectful not to give it to them? I know I do. That should end, and this same sort of bodily autonomy in basic human relations should be maintained and encouraged for all people. You don't have a right to anyone's affections or body, and nobody has a right to yours. If four year olds can get it, there's no reason why adult men can't. (And indeed we can. Some don't want to.)

 

[Sparagmos]

I can't believe things are at this base of a level in this conversation, but we all (men, women, single, married, etc.) know that people should want to hug us, right? So if people don't want to, then we should be okay with that/work on whatever is making us unhuggable (same as we would with whatever makes us undateable, unloveable, whatever).

I know it's anecdotal, but I was very proud one day a few years ago when my best friend's daughter, who was maybe only 3 or 4 years old, told me "Uncle Jeremy, I don't want hugs now." I hadn't been trying to hug her or anything, but had absentmindedly rested my arm along the length of the couch we were both sitting on, such that she didn't feel comfortable stretching out like she usually did. Once I realized what I was doing, I apologized and moved my arm to the central 'console' part of the couch (this was a sectional that had little raised arm-like sections at the end of each connecting piece). She said "Thank you", and then no less than five minutes later decided she did want a hug, so she hugged me.

She wanted a hug on her own terms, which is certainly something I wish my own parents had allowed me when I was her age or even a little older. Don't we all remember having to give grammie or uncle a hug or kiss when we didn't want to, but being told it was rude or disrespectful not to give it to them? I know I do. That should end, and this same sort of bodily autonomy in basic human relations should be maintained and encouraged for all people. You don't have a right to anyone's affections or body, and nobody has a right to yours. If four year olds can get it, there's no reason why adult men can't. (And indeed we can. Some don't want to.)

Thank you for sharing that.

Another poster or two has pointed out that even when greeting a married couple, they will give more of a hug to the woman than the man. Something I’d like people to consider is that when these norms developed, women didn’t have much of a say. Like being expected to hug grandma, women were expected to show affection to their fathers’ and husbands’ friends. Let’s face it, the men wanted to get close to women, to feel them and smell them, and integrated the closeness into their cultural norms for greeting people.

I can’t tell you how often women hug men they’d rather just shake hands with, because we don’t want to make a scene or hurt his feelings. Go back a few years, and it was "platonic" kissing, but of course was initiated by the men and usually on the cheek. When I was a waitress, there were a few older men who expected hugs and even kissed me on the cheek. I was a waitress they saw 6 times a year, but they felt so much affection for me they wanted a hug? Their wives didn’t hug me, just the men. Nor did the men get excited about seeing the male servers, just the pretty young women.

I’m really glad that kids are being taught about consent and bodily autonomy. Sexual predators use the ruse of obligatory affection to groom children. When children truly feel empowered to say "no," some abuse can be prevented.

 

[bèlla]

We're at this point because..

There's a lot of men who believe they deserve a woman. There's a lot of men who expected to have a wife. The majority aren't husband material. They expect women to overlook it. But they don't do the same.

They have a laundry list of requirements. But they're bringing her a problem. She's expected to ignore his condition because she loves Jesus. But he'd never have one like himself. He wants her to have it together.

 

[GOD Shines Forth!]

We're at this point because..

There's a lot of men who believe they deserve a woman. There's a lot of men who expected to have a wife. The majority aren't husband material. They expect women to overlook it. But they don't do the same.

They have a laundry list of requirements. But they're bringing her a problem. She's expected to ignore his condition because she loves Jesus. But he'd never have one like himself. He wants her to have it together.

Speaking of Jesus, I am really grateful to Him. Why any of us are trying to get love and acceptance from the fallen children of Adam all around us and not from the One who is "before all things" blows my mind.

Even IF someone finds a "worthy" catch, often in the end they wind up with bupkis because there's no "there" there. No life in the Spirit. But it looked pleasing to the eye and was desirous.

Forget incels, forget 'em. If anyone is even thinking of marriage, please refuse to marry anyone you do not share a genuine love for Christ with. Will save a lot of heartache (and money).

 

[Tom 1]

bupkis

Never came across that word before. Any idea of the origin?

 

[bèlla]

Even IF someone finds a "worthy" catch, often in the end they wind up with bupkis because there's no "there" there. No life in the Spirit. But it looked pleasing to the eye and was desirous.

Forget incels, forget 'em. If anyone is even thinking of marriage, please refuse to marry anyone you do not share a genuine love for Christ with. Will save a lot of heartache (and money).

I shared a conversation between myself and nun earlier. A portion of my response builds on your comment. I'll add it here.

You speak of my decision and I wish I could say that it was easy. I've wrestled with it during difficult moments and pointedly asked the Lord on an occasion or two if He had another option! I couldn't imagine why I was not blessed with a simpler path to covenant with a less difficult subject.

Amazingly enough it is only now (as in most recently) that I've discovered this was never about X per se, but what the Lord was accomplishing through him as the result of our connection. While He is surely drawing him to Himself, He's also teaching me important lessons that must be imparted to others.

In our society we hold fanciful notions about relationships or how marriage should look and how one should/should not behave. That is great in theory but the reality of our wretchedness is often forgotten and we're ignorant of our necessity for grace and the other person's need as well.

When we begin to see through the lenses of Spirit, His genuine regard for us, and unflinching ability to forgive and receive us into His presence when we err; we realize the magnitude of His love, the undeserved merit we've been given, and recognize our responsibility of affording others the same.

Rather than pointing the accusatory finger in his direction I returned the focus to myself and queried how He was using the experience to make me look a little more like Him. My greatest lessons in humility have come through him.

 

[RDKirk]

women were expected to show affection to their fathers’ and husbands’ friends.

Whoa, not where I was raised. When greeting the wife or daughter of a friend, a man said, "Ma'am," and then touched his hat...not the woman.

 

[GOD Shines Forth!]

"When we begin to see through the lenses of Spirit, His genuine regard for us, and unflinching ability to forgive and receive us into His presence when we err; we realize the magnitude of His love, the undeserved merit we've been given, and recognize our responsibility of affording others the same."

This is it, this is how it can work.

 

[GOD Shines Forth!]

Never came across that word before. Any idea of the origin?

I just kind of "knew" it, without knowing why. Did a quick search and found this from a blog called WHATEVER GETS YOU THROUGH THE DAY:

"Hello, all you menchs and mohels. Time for your Yiddish word of the day: Bupkis.

Bupkis; noun, slang, meaning: nothing, nada, zip, zilch, squat, worthless

Example: "Go ahead and sue me. Know what you'll get? Bupkis!"

Bupkis comes to us from the Slavic languages by way of Yiddish and literally means "beans", but not in an appetizing way. The beans referred to are actually small pellets of animal droppings, which is perhaps appropriate given the common usage of the word and its generally negative connotation. Gradually the literal meaning has left it and bupkis has evolved into slang meaning "nothing".

I always thought of it as "nothing, nada, zip, zilch, squat", not the pellets thing

 

[bèlla]

Whoa, not where I was raised. When greeting the wife or daughter of a friend, a man said, "Ma'am," and then touched his hat...not the woman.

Same here. Southern roots?

 

[Tom 1]

I just kind of "knew" it, without knowing why. Did a quick search and found this from a blog called WHATEVER GETS YOU THROUGH THE DAY:

"Hello, all you menchs and mohels. Time for your Yiddish word of the day: Bupkis.

Bupkis; noun, slang, meaning: nothing, nada, zip, zilch, squat, worthless

Example: "Go ahead and sue me. Know what you'll get? Bupkis!"

Bupkis comes to us from the Slavic languages by way of Yiddish and literally means "beans", but not in an appetizing way. The beans referred to are actually small pellets of animal droppings, which is perhaps appropriate given the common usage of the word and its generally negative connotation. Gradually the literal meaning has left it and bupkis has evolved into slang meaning "nothing".

I always thought of it as "nothing, nada, zip, zilch, squat", not the pellets thing

Thanks. My initial thought was Yiddish, but then I thought it doesn't 'sound' Yiddish. That'll teach me to draw conclusions based on a limited sample size.

 

[dzheremi]

Another poster or two has pointed out that even when greeting a married couple, they will give more of a hug to the woman than the man.

That is not something I'd find acceptable or appropriate.

Something I’d like people to consider is that when these norms developed, women didn’t have much of a say. Like being expected to hug grandma, women were expected to show affection to their fathers’ and husbands’ friends. Let’s face it, the men wanted to get close to women, to feel them and smell them, and integrated the closeness into their cultural norms for greeting people.

It's true. True and weird. I'm glad that this is changing, to whatever degree it is (not a lady here, so I can't say, but I assume my friends' daughter represents how the newest generation are being raised, at least in that family).

I can’t tell you how often women hug men they’d rather just shake hands with, because we don’t want to make a scene or hurt his feelings. Go back a few years, and it was "platonic" kissing, but of course was initiated by the men and usually on the cheek. When I was a waitress, there were a few older men who expected hugs and even kissed me on the cheek. I was a waitress they saw 6 times a year, but they felt so much affection for me they wanted a hug? Their wives didn’t hug me, just the men. Nor did the men get excited about seeing the male servers, just the pretty young women.

That is so disturbing. I mean, look, I'm a heterosexual man, so I also like seeing pretty women, but in this context, these are people at their jobs, where they have to pretend to be okay with a lot of things they aren't okay with, for the sake of their employment. It's not right that it is this way, but I feel like everyone knows that it is, and some men exploit that. That's disgusting. I had a friend at one point in my life who did a 6-7 year stretch waitressing at a very popular local restaurant in our hometown, and some of the stories she would tell of customer behavior towards her started to make me think I was surrounded by perverts whenever I went there. It was not even just physical stuff, but e.g., saying if she wanted a bigger tip, she should give him her number. She's a married woman, but obviously the type of man who would pull this sort of thing doesn't care enough about women as people to assume they'd ever not want male romantic/sexual attention. Even when they're at their job and married.

As a man, I just don't understand how "Women are interesting and beautiful and I like interacting with them" turns to "Since I like interacting with women, they should want to interact with me no matter how I behave or what kind of vibe I give off" without a whole heaping helping of entitlement and narcissism. And narcissism, especially when it is not validated by real world feedback but instead driven by unbridled desire/cravings, is not an attractive trait in anyone.

I’m really glad that kids are being taught about consent and bodily autonomy. Sexual predators use the ruse of obligatory affection to groom children. When children truly feel empowered to say "no," some abuse can be prevented.

Yes! That's why I was so proud of my friends' daughter, because I thought "Wow...here is a kid who will have no problem making her voice heard when some adult or another kid somewhere isn't treating her right." Obviously that's not the be all and end all of staying safe, but it's a big part of feeling safe within yourself. Just knowing that your body is yours and you have an inherent right to have your boundaries respected concerning people encroaching upon you in ways you're not comfortable with is such a big thing.

 

[Jamdoc]

Can you see how much of what you wrote goes back to making sure the hug or affection isn’t gay? If lingering more than two seconds between two men is sexual to you, then the same act with a woman is sexual. And I mean that in a neutral sense, no judgement. Women have the same aversion to hugging you as you do with men. If we hug a male co-worker, it could be read as sexual and in most cases we don’t want that. But my guess is that you would be OK with it. You’re leaving her wishes out of it when you crave that hug from her.

No, there are women I have no attraction to or desire for, like relatives, women who are far older than me, or women who are totally off limits cause they're married, but there's still no initial repulsion to overcome when approaching a woman vs approaching a man
it's more starting from neutral, vs a woman who you are attracted to obviously there's more a push to seek affection from her specifically, or vs a man, who you're repulsed by and have to overcome that first instinct to keep your distance to show any affection for. A woman you're not at all attracted to there is no pressure one direction or the other, so it's perfectly comfortable. Obviously we're talking on a level of friendship here, I'm not suggesting you need to feel any obligation to show affection to just acquaintances or coworkers or strangers.
Trust me there's nothing sexual about hugging a 57 year old aunt, but I still feel more comfortable hugging them than I do hugging an uncle, and the feeling is mutual, I'll hug my aunts, and shake my uncle's hand.

 

[Jamdoc]

Not true! In a church I was part of for a long time we were a close bunch, as young guys (this was a good while ago), and used to hug. Even in the military, after moments of extreme stress hugging wasn't so unusual, an arm around the shoulder. Physical contact of that kind is underrated, it's part of any bonded relationship.

Certainly not in the US Military, you might put 1 arm around a good buddy if you've been out drinking and carousing, but.. sober.. probably not.

 

[Sparagmos]

Whoa, not where I was raised. When greeting the wife or daughter of a friend, a man said, "Ma'am," and then touched his hat...not the woman.

And I’ve seen that culture too. There are only remnants of what I described left, older men who want to hug every young woman and have been getting away with it their whole lives. I experienced it as a preteen/teenager in Texas and as a waitress in FL and Oregon. I once asked my dad to intervene with a man who was a little too physical (tickling) and he refused, said he was just being "friendly."

 

[Sparagmos]

That is not something I'd find acceptable or appropriate.



It's true. True and weird. I'm glad that this is changing, to whatever degree it is (not a lady here, so I can't say, but I assume my friends' daughter represents how the newest generation are being raised, at least in that family).



That is so disturbing. I mean, look, I'm a heterosexual man, so I also like seeing pretty women, but in this context, these are people at their jobs, where they have to pretend to be okay with a lot of things they aren't okay with, for the sake of their employment. It's not right that it is this way, but I feel like everyone knows that it is, and some men exploit that. That's disgusting. I had a friend at one point in my life who did a 6-7 year stretch waitressing at a very popular local restaurant in our hometown, and some of the stories she would tell of customer behavior towards her started to make me think I was surrounded by perverts whenever I went there. It was not even just physical stuff, but e.g., saying if she wanted a bigger tip, she should give him her number. She's a married woman, but obviously the type of man who would pull this sort of thing doesn't care enough about women as people to assume they'd ever not want male romantic/sexual attention. Even when they're at their job and married.

As a man, I just don't understand how "Women are interesting and beautiful and I like interacting with them" turns to "Since I like interacting with women, they should want to interact with me no matter how I behave or what kind of vibe I give off" without a whole heaping helping of entitlement and narcissism. And narcissism, especially when it is not validated by real world feedback but instead driven by unbridled desire/cravings, is not an attractive trait in anyone.



Yes! That's why I was so proud of my friends' daughter, because I thought "Wow...here is a kid who will have no problem making her voice heard when some adult or another kid somewhere isn't treating her right." Obviously that's not the be all and end all of staying safe, but it's a big part of feeling safe within yourself. Just knowing that your body is yours and you have an inherent right to have your boundaries respected concerning people encroaching upon you in ways you're not comfortable with is such a big thing.

The service industry is really bad. They’re tipping you and so not going along with it costs you tips and can get you fired. I was always a very assertive woman and when the touching was definitively inappropriate, handled it swiftly. It’s the subtle stuff that’s not worth the effort, the hand just a little too low on the back, the slightly sexual comments. The customer is always right and he’ll just deny and be offended and make the rest of your shift miserable.

 

[Sparagmos]

No, there are women I have no attraction to or desire for, like relatives, women who are far older than me, or women who are totally off limits cause they're married, but there's still no initial repulsion to overcome when approaching a woman vs approaching a man
it's more starting from neutral, vs a woman who you are attracted to obviously there's more a push to seek affection from her specifically, or vs a man, who you're repulsed by and have to overcome that first instinct to keep your distance to show any affection for. A woman you're not at all attracted to there is no pressure one direction or the other, so it's perfectly comfortable. Obviously we're talking on a level of friendship here, I'm not suggesting you need to feel any obligation to show affection to just acquaintances or coworkers or strangers.
Trust me there's nothing sexual about hugging a 57 year old aunt, but I still feel more comfortable hugging them than I do hugging an uncle, and the feeling is mutual, I'll hug my aunts, and shake my uncle's hand.

I’m really sad to hear about that revulsion to hugging men. It sounds horrible. Imagine, if you will, that the 57 year old woman you’re not attracted to is attracted to you, and wants to hug you every time she sees you. It doesn’t feel good.